Was Israel enslaved in Egypt due to their sin and does Passover represent forgiveness of sin?

[stovebolts]

Hi Stove. Apologies for the delayed reply; I’ve only just seen your post.

First a quick word of clarification re your initial point. I have never said (or at least, if I have, I have never meant to say) that the focal point of the Passover was wrath; I’m not even sure what such a claim would mean in practice. My point is simply that wrath is in fact involved in the Passover--more specifically, that the Passover sacrifice is both penal (due to God’s anger with his people, Israel) and substitutionary (due to the way in which either a lamb must die or a firstborn son must die in each Israelite house).

As for your point about Pharaoh and the gods of Egypt: again, I don’t deny other aspects of the Exodus narrative; indeed, I explicitly brought up the way in which it entails the judgment of Egypt’s gods.

I am glad you have engaged with the text of Ezek. 20, but I don’t think you can dismiss its relevance to the issue at hand simply by saying “it is referring to the incident of the Golden Calf”. In Ezek. 20, God gives Israel a command to forsake Egypt’s idols at the same time as he announces his intention to lead them out of Egypt (20.5-7). Israel choose not to do so, which angers God, so God says he has resolved to pour out his wrath on them “in the midst of the land of Egypt” (20.8), but God then says he has decided to spare Israel--specifically, to ‘act for the sake of his name’--, saying, “So I took them out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness” (20.9-10). The text of 20.5-10 can’t, therefore, be relegated to the time from the Golden Calf incident onwards. It is explicitly set in the period prior to the moment when God leads his people out of Egypt. The statements above make this very clear.

James.

James,
It was at Mt. Sinai that Israel went into Covenant with YHVH where the idols were forbidden. Mt. Sinai was subject of Egypt and could be considered as part of Egypt.
A careful reading of Exodus supports what I have said about Ez 20.

Tell ya what, show me in exodus where this is said.
Ezekiel 20:7 Then said I unto them, Cast you away every man the abominations of his eyes, and defile not yourselves with the idols of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

 

[stovebolts]

James,

Ezekiel 20:7 And I said to them: Every man cast away the despicable idols from before his eyes, and pollute not yourselves with the idols of Egypt; I am the Lord your God.

1 Samual 2:27-28And a man of God came to Eli, and he said to him: "So said the Lord: 'Did I appear to the house of your father, when they were in Egypt, (enslaved) to the house of Pharaoh?
And did I choose him from all the tribes of Israel to be My priest, to offer up (sacrifices) on My altar, to burn incense, to wear an ephod before Me? And did I give to the house of your father all the fire-offerings of the children of Israel?

This would seem to point to Aaron, the brother of Moses. It is possible Aaron, speaking for God said this to the Israelite's when they were still in Egypt.

 

[chessman]

Ezekiel 20:7 And I said to them: Every man cast away the despicable idols from before his eyes, and pollute not yourselves with the idols of Egypt; I am the Lord your God

Who’s the “them” that God said this to???

And you must say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord Yahweh: “On the day of my choosing Israel I swore to the offspring of the house of Jacob, and I made myself known to them in the land of Egypt, and I swore to them, saying, ‘I am Yahweh your God.’​

Ezekiel 20:5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Ezekiel 20:5&version=LEB

The offspring of Jacob!

And when/where was it said to them???

On that day I swore to them to bring them out from the land of Egypt to the land that I had searched out for them, flowing with milk and honey—it is the most beautiful of all of the lands.​

Ezekiel 20:6 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Ezekiel 20:6&version=LEB

While they (Jacob’s household) were still in Egypt!

 

[stovebolts]

Who’s the “them” that God said this to???

And you must say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord Yahweh: “On the day of my choosing Israel I swore to the offspring of the house of Jacob, and I made myself known to them in the land of Egypt, and I swore to them, saying, ‘I am Yahweh your God.’​

Ezekiel 20:5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Ezekiel 20:5&version=LEB

The offspring of Jacob!

And when/where was it said to them???

On that day I swore to them to bring them out from the land of Egypt to the land that I had searched out for them, flowing with milk and honey—it is the most beautiful of all of the lands.​

Ezekiel 20:6 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Ezekiel 20:6&version=LEB

While they (Jacob’s household) were still in Egypt!

Hi Chessman,
Sorry for the delay in responding... came down with the flu and was kind of out of commission yesterday. However, the night I wrote my reply back to James, I did some reading and the two of you are right. I caught this by the text where it was very specific in using Egypt and Wilderness. Mt. Sinai was in the wilderness, and as such, I was wrong in my post to James Bejon where I used the map.

This is why I posted Ezekiel 20:6 with 1 Samuel 2:27-27. See if you follow me. I don't see anywhere in Exodus where God says to the Israelite's what Ezekiel has to say. As such, it is possible that Aaron spoke the word of the Lord in Egypt, and not Moses otherwise Moses should have recorded it in the Torah.

Additionally, it ties in almost perfectly with the Golden Calf, especially what occurs afterwards in Exodus 32:26-28 and it seems to agree with the flow of Ezekiel from verse 6 to 7.

Thoughts?

 

[chessman]

I don't see anywhere in Exodus where God says to the Israelite's what Ezekiel has to say.

And Aaron spoke all the words that Yahweh had spoken to Moses, and he did the signs before the eyes of the people.​

Exodus 4:30 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Exodus 4:30&version=LEB

Will you judge them? Will you judge them, son of man? Make known to them the detestable things of their ancestors. And you must say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord Yahweh: “On the day of my choosing Israel I swore to the offspring of the house of Jacob, and I made myself known to them in the land of Egypt, and I swore to them, saying, ‘I am Yahweh your God.’ On that day [This day was recorded by Moses in Ex 3:8]. I swore to them to bring them out from the land of Egypt to the land that I had searched out for them, flowing with milk and honey—it is the most beautiful of all of the lands.​

Ezekiel 20:4-6 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Ezekiel 20:4-6&version=LEB

One of the things God said to Moses:

And I will give this people favor in the eyes of the Egyptians, and then when you go, you will not go empty-handed. And a woman will ask from her neighbor and from the woman dwelling as an alien in her house for objects of silver and objects of gold and garments, and you will put them on your sons and on your daughters; and you will plunder Egypt.”​

Exodus 3:21-22 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Exodus 3:21-22&version=LEB

And God repeats it to Moses and tells Moses to speak it to the people:

Speak in the ears of the people, and let them ask, a man from his neighbor and a woman from her neighbor, for objects of silver and objects of gold.”​

Exodus 11:2 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Exodus 11:2&version=LEB

Some of these objects were golden idols they carried with them. Which is why the first of the Ten Commandments was given to them NOT to make idols.

it is possible that Aaron spoke the word of the Lord in Egypt, and not Moses otherwise Moses should have recorded it in the Torah.

Sure. See Ex 4:30. But so did Moses later. See Ex 11:2

 

[Randy]

In regard to passover if a wise egyptian who believed and feared God painted their door frame with blood the destroying angel would have passed over their house. They would have saved their firstborn by faith. Likewise if a stubborn Jew did not believe God and thought it was ridiculous to paint their door frame with blood the death angel would have entered their home and struck down their firstborn children. It was not heritage but faith that saved the firstborn children of the Israelites. The condition of the passover was set by the command of God to His angel not to enter the homes of those who had painted their doors or doorframe with the blood. Likewise Jesus is how God chose to forgive sin and he is accepted by faith.