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Was Jesus a pacifist?

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#21
It's already pretty clear to most folks that they think Jesus was no pacifist. And that based on a single incident. It's too bad America has such a culture of violence, even within the church. I think that arguing Jesus wasn't a pacifist is just a means to justify the use of violence and assuage one's conscience.

It's very telling that the early Christians were known for not joining the armies. Perhaps it's because they understood what Jesus meant when he said, "For all who take the sword will perish by the sword" (Matt. 26:52, ESV)
If it's a sin to live by the sword,being a cop,military and its pension is also a sin.
 
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#22
It's very telling that the early Christians were known for not joining the armies. Perhaps it's because they understood what Jesus meant when he said, "For all who take the sword will perish by the sword"
Matthew 8 5-13. Luke 7 1-10

Jesus and the Centurion . Seems Jesus does not have a problem with military men. He had a problem with the religious and with the double minded. Also God destroyed a few cities here and there. So, if you believe Jesus is Lord, it is not just a whip he used is it ? First borns ring a bell for you ?
 
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#23
It's already pretty clear to most folks that they think Jesus was no pacifist. And that based on a single incident. It's too bad America has such a culture of violence, even within the church. I think that arguing Jesus wasn't a pacifist is just a means to justify the use of violence and assuage one's conscience.

It's very telling that the early Christians were known for not joining the armies. Perhaps it's because they understood what Jesus meant when he said, "For all who take the sword will perish by the sword" (Matt. 26:52, ESV)
It's based on more than one incident, but you seek to minimalize it, in effort to turn people from justified defense? Weird,and Non-biblical.

We're allowed to defend ourselves and those in our charge. To do less would be to shirk a mans duty.
 
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#24
Jesus is God .... if any one thinks God is a pacifist they must not have read the Bible

Deu_1:37 Also the LORD was angry with me for your sakes, saying, Thou also shalt not go in thither.
Exo_34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
Exo_12:12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.
Rev_19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
 
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#25
If it's a sin to live by the sword,being a cop,military and its pension is also a sin.
The cops and the military don't live by the sword. They carry out justice by the sword.

Criminals live by the sword. And they die by the sword of the nations laws.

Matt 26:52~~New American Standard Bible
Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword.
 
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#26
It's already pretty clear to most folks that they think Jesus was no pacifist.
Acts 5~~1But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property, 2and kept back some of the price for himself, with his wife’s full knowledge, and bringing a portion of it, he laid it at the apostles’ feet. 3But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? 4“While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” 5And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it. 6The young men got up and covered him up, and after carrying him out, they buried him.

7Now there elapsed an interval of about three hours, and his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8And Peter responded to her, “Tell me whether you sold the land for such and such a price?” And she said, “Yes, that was the price.” 9Then Peter said to her, “Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out as well.10And immediately she fell at his feet and breathed her last, and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11And great fear came over the whole church, and over all who heard of these things.
 
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#27
Jesus said "Love you neighbour as you love yourself"
"Do not resist the evil person"
You will know when that time comes what to do, but I in no way see the Lord letting someone murder, rape or harm anyone in your responsibility whereas it relies on you. You can not rely upon those who are suppose to avenge, that carry the sword like the Lord has called, because of the corrupted governing bodies. The cities with the most stringent laws have the worst, and an abundance of murders and crimes because of the corrupt principalities and powers in high places. There is a difference between religious persecution by evil people, by many who claim to be religious themselves and those with an outright evil and fiend mind (murderous heart).
 
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#28
John 2:13-16 NASB
13 The Passover of the Jews was near, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 And He found in the temple those who were selling oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers seated at their tables. 15 And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables; 16 and to those who were selling the doves He said, “Take these things away; stop making My Father’s house a place of business.”​

I can't prove it, but when I read that story I always had a very different mental image of the unfolding events than a whip wielding Jesus leaving welts on corrupt merchants as customers ran screaming. I know there is a lot of traction for this view - especially in this topic it seems - but here is how I always imagined the events.

The courtyard is crowded with animals and those haggling prices and complaining about fees with merchants that have deals with the temple so everyone profits except the worshippers. Many more are attempting to worship and ignore the noise because they can go no further ... Gentiles, ceremonially unclean.

Jesus enters into the din of arguments over commerce, the proud, confident smug postures of the merchants who hold all the cards, and the pitiful attempts to worship among all of this. The sounds and smells of animals is almost overwhelming in the still air of the courtyard.

Have you ever worked with cattle? I have. They are big and slow and thick skinned. It is not easy to get the attention of a cow. Jesus selects three old strands of cordage, probably just cast off bits from something that tied a bundle or secured a load, and he braided them together into a short, stiff whip about 18" long. More than adequate for the task of walking to the nearest pen, opening the gate, heading to the far corner and beginning to drive the herd with a few well places cracks towards the open pen and then the main entrance. Cattle are hard to get moving, but they tend to keep moving once started. Then came the sheep pens where an open door ans some judicious encouragement from a short whip to the lead sheep will send the herd of sheep out the main gate after the cattle. The sellers of sheep and cattle now had a choice to make, to stay and argue with this young rabbi and the guards, or to run after their escaping livestock. For a rancher, the herd is everything. So they forsake all dignity and charge off down the street after the fleeing livestock.

All eyes are on Jesus as he next approaches the tables of the money changers. The oft cheated crowd erupts in cheers and laughter as Jesus overturns the tables and the money changers dive to the dirt to scoop up their precious scattered coins, all of their haughty dignity replaced by grovelling in the dirt.

Jesus then turns to confront the last group, the sellers of birds. With just a look, they grab their cages and run towards the main gate.

What I see as the achievement of the Lord and the lesson for me in planning any confrontations of wrong are:
1. Evil was confronted using actively and directly.
2. Force was applied against the sin, but not the sinner.
3. No person suffered actual loss, except pride.
(The animals fled - their owners followed)
(The money changers had to gather their coins from the dirt)
(Releasing the birds would have robbed their owners, so they were allowed to flee with their cages)​
4. Jesus achieved his goal - temple restored to a house of prayer.

Like I said, no proof, but that's how I always saw it.
 
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#29
Was Jesus a pacifist?
Rev 19:11-21
Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the wine press of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”
And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.


I'd say; no. Jesus is not a pacifist.
 
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#30
Jesus is God .... if any one thinks God is a pacifist they must not have read the Bible

Deu_1:37 Also the LORD was angry with me for your sakes, saying, Thou also shalt not go in thither.
Exo_34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
Exo_12:12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.
Rev_19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
There it is! Amen.
 
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#31
John 2:13-16 NASB
13 The Passover of the Jews was near, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 And He found in the temple those who were selling oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers seated at their tables. 15 And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables; 16 and to those who were selling the doves He said, “Take these things away; stop making My Father’s house a place of business.”​

I can't prove it, but when I read that story I always had a very different mental image of the unfolding events than a whip wielding Jesus leaving welts on corrupt merchants as customers ran screaming. I know there is a lot of traction for this view - especially in this topic it seems - but here is how I always imagined the events.

The courtyard is crowded with animals and those haggling prices and complaining about fees with merchants that have deals with the temple so everyone profits except the worshippers. Many more are attempting to worship and ignore the noise because they can go no further ... Gentiles, ceremonially unclean.

Jesus enters into the din of arguments over commerce, the proud, confident smug postures of the merchants who hold all the cards, and the pitiful attempts to worship among all of this. The sounds and smells of animals is almost overwhelming in the still air of the courtyard.

Have you ever worked with cattle? I have. They are big and slow and thick skinned. It is not easy to get the attention of a cow. Jesus selects three old strands of cordage, probably just cast off bits from something that tied a bundle or secured a load, and he braided them together into a short, stiff whip about 18" long. More than adequate for the task of walking to the nearest pen, opening the gate, heading to the far corner and beginning to drive the herd with a few well places cracks towards the open pen and then the main entrance. Cattle are hard to get moving, but they tend to keep moving once started. Then came the sheep pens where an open door ans some judicious encouragement from a short whip to the lead sheep will send the herd of sheep out the main gate after the cattle. The sellers of sheep and cattle now had a choice to make, to stay and argue with this young rabbi and the guards, or to run after their escaping livestock. For a rancher, the herd is everything. So they forsake all dignity and charge off down the street after the fleeing livestock.

All eyes are on Jesus as he next approaches the tables of the money changers. The oft cheated crowd erupts in cheers and laughter as Jesus overturns the tables and the money changers dive to the dirt to scoop up their precious scattered coins, all of their haughty dignity replaced by grovelling in the dirt.

Jesus then turns to confront the last group, the sellers of birds. With just a look, they grab their cages and run towards the main gate.

What I see as the achievement of the Lord and the lesson for me in planning any confrontations of wrong are:
1. Evil was confronted using actively and directly.
2. Force was applied against the sin, but not the sinner.
3. No person suffered actual loss, except pride.
(The animals fled - their owners followed)
(The money changers had to gather their coins from the dirt)
(Releasing the birds would have robbed their owners, so they were allowed to flee with their cages)​
4. Jesus achieved his goal - temple restored to a house of prayer.

Like I said, no proof, but that's how I always saw it.
Good analysis if anyone asks me.

Also consider Mat 27:24-25:
When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all, but rather that a tumult was rising, he took water and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, “I am innocent of the blood of this just Person, You see to it.
And all the people answered and said, “His blood be on us and on our children.”


And so it was in 70 Ad when the Roman army under Titus surrounded Jerusalem, broke down its walls, and slaughtered man, woman and child just as Jesus said it would be done.

iakov the fool
 
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#32
There are two aspects to Jesus's preaching.
The first is to believers and how they should live.
The second is the role of the state and authorities.
Jesus supported authority and responsibility rather than overthrowing it.
What Jesus brought is the spiritual dimension to justice and righteousness.

It is not difficult to say you must not hurt anyone else, it is much harder to talk about responsibility
to serve and protect others. Israel had the law and the structure of justice and civil government,
into which Jesus brought spiritual reality. He did not do away with the law but fulfilled it and brought
the power by which to live it.

Unfortunately too many have started denying the foundations of love and morality and replaced it
with subjective emotional feelings without personal responsibility for ones actions. This is just lawlessness
and the kingdom of the enemy. Those who preach this way will also claim no one has the right to judge or
intervene in sinful behaviour, which is equally to participate and condone it, which is evil in itself. Laws in many
countries are now making it a crime to know of a criminal act and do nothing is a criminal act itself.
what about the reformation? Many times separating from the roman church meant a call to arms.
 

PeterJens

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#33
what about the reformation? Many times separating from the roman church meant a call to arms.
I think there were two issues here.
The first is the personal walk with integrity and righteousness.
The second is dealing with injustice and corruption in ones society.

Jesus did not call His disciples to rise up and overthrow the Jewish authorities, rather just to witness
and love the people they met. This is our example.
Prophets of old condemned sinful behaviour in their society and warned of Gods judgement against
it. So in the biblical situation, it is hard to justify what happened in the reformation.

25% of the population died, and horrific acts were done by both sides.
I would suggest little of this had to do with faith, and a lot to which power group you were loyal to.
There were a number of true nutcases involved who thought God would support their revolution,
and died when the real army turned up.
 
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#34
A Christian army will shoot to kill but will care for the wounded .. Police will stop criminals with deadly force if necessary .. I will defend my family and friends if I'm forced to .. Christianity and just law are completely compatible .. Exodus 15:3 .. Isaiah 9:6 .. Proverbs 23:13-14 ..
Jesus is the Lamb of God and also the Lion of the tribe of Judah .. There is a time for everything Ecclesiastes 3 .. You have to have a little discernment .. I'll take peace every time but I'm game too ..
 

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#35
Romans 13:10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Neighbors are the people we have to live around. If you act like the majority of the world and feel it's okay to kill someone to protect yourself, you aren't ready for heaven. In heaven you will not have that attitude.
 
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#36
Romans 13:10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Neighbors are the people we have to live around. If you act like the majority of the world and feel it's okay to kill someone to protect yourself, you aren't ready for heaven. In heaven you will not have that attitude.
So move out of the way and allow mine to be killed,raped.

I train In this,option one avoid it,flee of possible ,finally use any amount of force to stop the acts. Sometimes it happens so fast the only option is to use lethal force.
 

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#37
So move out of the way and allow mine to be killed,raped.

I train In this,option one avoid it,flee of possible ,finally use any amount of force to stop the acts. Sometimes it happens so fast the only option is to use lethal force.
I don't know how you can justify "do no harm" and kill someone?
 
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#38
I don't know how you can justify "do no harm" and kill someone?
So if ,and I have been there.my wife was stalked and he managed to corner me and evasion wasNT possible. Just allow him to harm ,kill her.

Do no harm means no calling the law.why? Help,kill ,hurt this man for me.it's a crime to gain from murder ,conspire with another to cause harm.the idea is the same.

Love isn't some idea of allowing abuse,harm to your loved ones.

GOD judged men by fire.that's not a paimless death, quit gruesome
 

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#39
There is definitely a theological problem when people literally believe Jesus "is" our Father in heaven. Jesus came in submission to the Father and we are to be in submission to Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:27-28For he "has put everything under his feet". Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

We are to not act like God the Father, but Christ Jesus.
Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered

I'm stopping scripture at that because we are to suffer also
 

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So if ,and I have been there.my wife was stalked and he managed to corner me and evasion wasNT possible. Just allow him to harm ,kill her.

Do no harm means no calling the law.why? Help,kill ,hurt this man for me.it's a crime to gain from murder ,conspire with another to cause harm.the idea is the same.

Love isn't some idea of allowing abuse,harm to your loved ones.

GOD judged men by fire.that's not a paimless death, quit gruesome
Listen! Anyone who does this stuff if they don't have a turn around are going to hell for eternity. I don't want anyone to go to hell. This time on earth is a millisecond in the scope of things.

You can stop people without killing them or harming them as they are doing. That is very narrow minded to think harm for harm.
 
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