Was Judas saved and now sitting with the Lord in heaven?

[chessman]

Who were the “they” who did not believe?

Some of the 12.

Did the 12 disciples continue to follow Him?

Yes. But only the 11 followed Him to receive His body and blood.

Are you claiming that the disciples who turned away from Him were the group that Believed, while the 12 disciples who continued to follow Him were the group that did not believe?

No. The Text plainly has Jesus say that “some of you” (some of the 12) do not believe in the John 6 time frame. Heck, they all were grumbling about what He just told them. The real question is which one or ones DID believe, not which ones didn’t.

Want me to speculate???

 

[JLB]

Some of the 12.

Which some of the 12 ?

 

[JLB]

Yes. But only the 11 followed Him to receive His body and blood.

26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”

27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. Matthew 26:26-27

No such teaching here.

22 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”23 Then He took the cup, and when He had given thanks He gave it to them, and they all drank from it. Mark 14:22-23

• they all drank from it.

14 When the hour had come, He sat down, and the twelve apostles with Him. 15 Then He said to them, “With fervent desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; 16 for I say to you, I will no longer eat of it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.”

17 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, “Take this and divide it among yourselves; 18 for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”

19 And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”

20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you. 21 But behold, the hand of My betrayer is with Me on the table. 22 And truly the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed!”

23 Then they began to question among themselves, which of them it was who would do this thing. Luke 22:14-23



Sorry you have not been right throughout this whole discussion about Judas Iscariot.


Judas believed that Jesus was the Christ, in which he followed Him, when the others turned away.

The 12 Apostles continued to believe, until Judas betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver and became lost.


JLB

 

[chessman]

I asked you:
Did Jesus say to the 12; “But there are some of you who do not believe”?
You (finally) answered:

Yes. Jesus said that.

Now you say:

The 12 Apostles continued to believe, until Judas betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver and became lost.

Now your case is not only weak but contradictory with itself.

Which some of the 12 ?

Judas and at least one more of the 11 others, else the Text is in grammatical error. John doesn’t name which other from among the 12 He directly said those words to besides naming Judas also didn’t believe at that time. He just tells us that Jesus knew who they were from the beginning.

But it doesn’t matter which other(s) from among 12 in addition to Judas didn’t believe because the topic is about Judas.

 

[chessman]

26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”

27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. Matthew 26:26-27

Sorry but this comes after Judas is identified as the betrayer “handing Him over” (still calling Him Rabbi not the Christ, BTW) as can be seen in v25. And immediately directed to leave from them as can be seen in John 13:30.

22 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”23 Then He took the cup, and when He had given thanks He gave it to them, and they all drank from it. Mark 14:22-23

Sorry but this comes after Judas is identified as the betrayer “handing Him over” (still calling Him Rabbi not the Christ, BTW) as can be seen in v21. And immediately directed to leave as can be seen in John 13:30.

Luke’s account is not chronological order but rather topically ordered as can be seen by:
1. John’s account which specifically says Judas was exposed to John privately by Jesus as the betrayer then immediately direct to leave and he left before night.
2. the fact that Luke has Jesus saying He will not drink wine again until His kingdom comes BEFORE the elements were shared (if you erroneously assume chronology was meant versus topical order), yet Matthew and Mark (who were there, Luke wasn’t) lists it chronologically coming after they share the elements.

 

[JLB]

Now your case is not only weak but contradictory with itself.

More ad hominem.

Judas and the twelve continued to follow Jesus when the others turned away from Him.


This has been my position and is backed up by scripture.

• Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God

64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:64-69


Jesus continued with Jesus as a disciple and Apostle in which he shared the Passover meal with Jesus, then betrayed him.


Judas was a disciple and Apostle, the He became a traitor.

Judas was the one thing, then became the other.

Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor.
Luke 6:16


Judas was a disciple and believer then he fell by transgression, having wandered away as a sheep he became lost, and never returned to Jesus to repent.


24 And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” Acts 1:24-25

• which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.”

Judas is a biblical example of a sheep who becomes lost.


Lost = Sinner who is need of repentance; dead to God, in need of salvation, reconciliation to God.

Found = Someone is is reconciled to God; saved.


Lost Sheep:
I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:7

Lost Coin:
Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Luke 15:10


Prodigal Son
It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’” Luke 15:32



JLB

 

[JLB]

Sorry but this comes after Judas is identified as the betrayer “handing Him over” (still calling Him Rabbi not the Christ, BTW) as can be seen in v25. And immediately directed to leave from them as can be seen in John 13:30.

Your claim was that Judas never “ate His flesh or drank His blood”.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Sorry but this comes after Judas is identified as the betrayer “handing Him over” (still calling Him Rabbi not the Christ, BTW) as can be seen in v25. And immediately directed to leave from them as can be seen in John 13:30.




Sorry but this comes after Judas is identified as the betrayer “handing Him over” (still calling Him Rabbi not the Christ, BTW) as can be seen in v21. And immediately directed to leave as can be seen in John 13:30.

Luke’s account is not chronological order but rather topically ordered as can be seen by:
1. John’s account which specifically says Judas was exposed to John privately by Jesus as the betrayer then immediately direct to leave and he left before night.
2. the fact that Luke has Jesus saying He will not drink wine again until His kingdom comes BEFORE the elements were shared (if you erroneously assume chronology was meant versus topical order), yet Matthew and Mark (who were there, Luke wasn’t) lists it chronologically coming after they share the elements.

Judas and the twelve continued to follow Jesus when the others turned away from Him.


This has been my position and is backed up by scripture.

Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God


64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:64-69


Jesus continued with Jesus as a disciple and Apostle in which he shared the Passover meal with Jesus, then betrayed him.


Judas was a disciple and Apostle, the He became a traitor.

Judas was the one thing, then became the other.

Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor.
Luke 6:16


Judas was a disciple and believer then he fell by transgression, having wandered away as a sheep he became lost, and never returned to Jesus to repent.


24 And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” Acts 1:24-25

which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.”


Judas is a biblical example of a sheep who becomes lost.


Lost = Sinner who is need of repentance; dead to God, in need of salvation, reconciliation to God.

Found = Someone is is reconciled to God; saved.


Lost Sheep:
I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:7

Lost Coin:
Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Luke 15:10


Prodigal Son
It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’” Luke 15:32



JLB

 

[chessman]

I think God is a merciful God.

He is merciful, of course. Else none of us would be here after Adam and Eve were shown mercy and lived a long enough ‘day’ to procreate their offspring. Judas was shown mercy the first time he sinned (way before stealing from the money bag).

And God’s just, in fact contains no injustice. And all powerful. And compassionate and hardening. And the only God there is. Love Him or hate Him, He’s the only God there is.

What then shall we say? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For to Moses he says, “I will have mercy on whomever I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I have compassion.” Consequently therefore, it does not depend on the one who wills or on the one who runs, but on God who shows mercy. For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very reason I have raised you up, so that I may demonstrate my power in you, and so that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Consequently therefore, he has mercy on whomever he wishes, and he hardens whomever he wishes.​

Romans 9:14-18 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 9:14-18&version=LEB

Can you imagine the outcome had not Judas been there with the 12 Passover eve and not done as directed to do and continued his betrayal more quickly as directed before their Passover Feast and giving of the elements to the 11???

And the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how to put him to death, for they feared the people. Then Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot,

This Occurred in order that what was decreed to occur, through 12 choosen people and a bunch of ‘High Priests’ and Gentiles, occured precisely on time IAW God’s will and timing, not Judas’s or the High Priests or Pilate’s. They didn’t have a clue how they were going to catch Jesus away from the crowds. Did you notice “they were seeking how”? But Jesus knew how and chose Judas for his part.

Now before the feast of Passover, Jesus, knowing that his hour had come that he would depart from this world to the Father, and having loved his own in the world, loved them to the end. And as a dinner was taking place, when the devil had already put into the heart of Judas son of Simon Iscariot that he should betray him, because he knew that the Father had given him all things into his hands, and that he had come forth from God and was going away to God, When he had said these things, Jesus was troubled in spirit and testified and said, “Truly, truly I say to you that one of you will betray me.” The disciples began looking at one another, uncertain about whom he was speaking. For some were thinking because Judas had the money box, Jesus was telling him, “Purchase what we need for the feast,” or that he should give something to the poor.) So after he had taken the piece of bread, he went out immediately. And it was night.​

John 13:1-3,21-22,29-30 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 13:1-3,21-22,29-30&version=LEB

“Then” and only then did Jesus tell the 11

Then, when he had gone out, Jesus said, “Now the Son of Man is glorified, and God is glorified in him. ...​

John 13:31 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 13:31&version=LEB

and shared the elements with the 11 (not Judas) in accordance with His hard to understand teaching way back in John 6 (in fact in fulfillment of all “The Law”, Pentateuch)

By this everyone will know that you are my disciples [don’t be fooled, Judas wasn’t there when Jesus says this] —if you have love for one another.” Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; but if not, believe because of the works themselves. Truly, truly I say to you, the one who believes in me, the works that I am doing he will do also, and he will do greater works than these because I am going to the Father. But this happened so that the word that is written in their law would be fulfilled, ‘They hated me without a reason.’ His disciples said, “Behold, now you are speaking plainly and are telling us no figurative saying! Now we know that you know everything and do not need for anyone to ask you questions. By this we believe [Judas wasn’t there] that you have come from God.” “I have revealed your name to the men whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you have given them to me, and they have kept your word. Now they understand that all the things that you have given me are from you, because the words that you gave to me I have given to them, and they received them and know truly that I have come from you, and they have believed that you have sent me.​

John 13:35,14:11-12,15:25,16:29-30,17:6-8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 13:35,14:11-12,15:25,16:29-30,17:6-8&version=LEB

 

[chessman]

Judas and the twelve continued to follow Jesus when the others turned away from Him.


This has been my position and is backed up by scripture.

And a portion of your position that nobody argues against. Why??? Because that’s what the Text says.

Jesus continued with Jesus as a disciple and Apostle in which he shared the Passover meal with Jesus, then betrayed him.

Judas did NOT share the passover Feast, nor the elements. He was identified as the betrayer to John and directed to leave them BEFORE night when they shared the actual Feast and the elements. I’ve already proven this to be the case from John’s account. He was there, not you.

Your claim was that Judas never “ate His flesh or drank His blood”.

That’s correct. Because it’s true. And no, I’m not reposting it a third or forth time. As it’s a debate rules violation to do so.

 

[FreeGrace]

chessman said:
Now your case is not only weak but contradictory with itself.

More ad hominem.

Just to be clear, "your case is weak" is not even close to being an "ad hominem". Saying "you are weak", etc, would be an example of an ad hominem.

Judas and the twelve continued to follow Jesus when the others turned away from Him.

This has been my position and is backed up by scripture.

• Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God

64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:64-69

Yeah, Peter is a real good character witness, right? The one who Jesus addressed as "Satan", and Paul had to brace for his hypocrisy.

Judas is a biblical example of a sheep who becomes lost.

He was never found. Or what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life cannot be true. Is that your position?

 

[FreeGrace]

Judas and the twelve continued to follow Jesus when the others turned away from Him.

He followed as a criminal opportunist. Nothing more.

 

[JLB]

He followed as a criminal opportunist. Nothing more.

More opinion with no scripture.

 

[JLB]

chessman said:
Now your case is not only weak but contradictory with itself.

Just to be clear, "your case is weak" is not even close to being an "ad hominem". Saying "you are weak", etc, would be an example of an ad hominem.


Yeah, Peter is a real good character witness, right? The one who Jesus addressed as "Satan", and Paul had to brace for his hypocrisy.


He was never found. Or what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life cannot be true. Is that your position?

All opinion in the face of overwhelming scripture proof.

 

[FreeGrace]

More opinion with no scripture.

I gave Scripture that Judas was a criminal opportunist, but one needs to read the posts of others before making such a mistake.

John 12:4-6
But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, 5 "Why wasn't this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year's wages." 6 He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.

A thief is a criminal.

An opportunist helps themselves to things, like money bags.

Judas and the twelve continued to follow Jesus when the others turned away from Him.

Judas' motivation was as a criminal opportunist.

This has been my position and is backed up by scripture.
Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God

Sure. The always reliable Peter, who was addressed as "Satan" by Jesus and braced publicly by Paul for his hypocrisy.

Your case is weak, as has been noted. I'd say very weak.

 

[JLB]

I gave Scripture that Judas was a criminal opportunist, but one needs to read the posts of others before making such a mistake.

John 12:4-6
But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, 5 "Why wasn't this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year's wages." 6 He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.

A thief is a criminal.

An opportunist helps themselves to things, like money bags.

Are born again Pastors who help themselves to the coffers of their congregation going to hell?

 

[Honey]

He is merciful, of course. Else none of us would be here after Adam and Eve were shown mercy and lived a long enough ‘day’ to procreate their offspring. Judas was shown mercy the first time he sinned (way before stealing from the money bag).

And God’s just, in fact contains no injustice. And all powerful. And compassionate and hardening. And the only God there is. Love Him or hate Him, He’s the only God there is.

What then shall we say? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For to Moses he says, “I will have mercy on whomever I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I have compassion.” Consequently therefore, it does not depend on the one who wills or on the one who runs, but on God who shows mercy. For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very reason I have raised you up, so that I may demonstrate my power in you, and so that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Consequently therefore, he has mercy on whomever he wishes, and he hardens whomever he wishes.​

Romans 9:14-18 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 9:14-18&version=LEB

Can you imagine the outcome had not Judas been there with the 12 Passover eve and not done as directed to do and continued his betrayal more quickly as directed before their Passover Feast and giving of the elements to the 11???



This Occurred in order that what was decreed to occur, through 12 choosen people and a bunch of ‘High Priests’ and Gentiles, occured precisely on time IAW God’s will and timing, not Judas’s or the High Priests or Pilate’s. They didn’t have a clue how they were going to catch Jesus away from the crowds. Did you notice “they were seeking how”? But Jesus knew how and chose Judas for his part.

Now before the feast of Passover, Jesus, knowing that his hour had come that he would depart from this world to the Father, and having loved his own in the world, loved them to the end. And as a dinner was taking place, when the devil had already put into the heart of Judas son of Simon Iscariot that he should betray him, because he knew that the Father had given him all things into his hands, and that he had come forth from God and was going away to God, When he had said these things, Jesus was troubled in spirit and testified and said, “Truly, truly I say to you that one of you will betray me.” The disciples began looking at one another, uncertain about whom he was speaking. For some were thinking because Judas had the money box, Jesus was telling him, “Purchase what we need for the feast,” or that he should give something to the poor.) So after he had taken the piece of bread, he went out immediately. And it was night.​

John 13:1-3,21-22,29-30 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 13:1-3,21-22,29-30&version=LEB

“Then” and only then did Jesus tell the 11

Then, when he had gone out, Jesus said, “Now the Son of Man is glorified, and God is glorified in him. ...​

John 13:31 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 13:31&version=LEB

and shared the elements with the 11 (not Judas) in accordance with His hard to understand teaching way back in John 6 (in fact in fulfillment of all “The Law”, Pentateuch)

By this everyone will know that you are my disciples [don’t be fooled, Judas wasn’t there when Jesus says this] —if you have love for one another.” Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; but if not, believe because of the works themselves. Truly, truly I say to you, the one who believes in me, the works that I am doing he will do also, and he will do greater works than these because I am going to the Father. But this happened so that the word that is written in their law would be fulfilled, ‘They hated me without a reason.’ His disciples said, “Behold, now you are speaking plainly and are telling us no figurative saying! Now we know that you know everything and do not need for anyone to ask you questions. By this we believe [Judas wasn’t there] that you have come from God.” “I have revealed your name to the men whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you have given them to me, and they have kept your word. Now they understand that all the things that you have given me are from you, because the words that you gave to me I have given to them, and they received them and know truly that I have come from you, and they have believed that you have sent me.​

John 13:35,14:11-12,15:25,16:29-30,17:6-8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 13:35,14:11-12,15:25,16:29-30,17:6-8&version=LEB

Sounds like you're saying that Judas being possessed by Satan was doing God's will through Satan's agency.

 

[WIP]

That’s my Biblical point.
The charge against Him and His execution was for being the Christ, the Holy One, the Son of God, the King of the Jews.

And Judas believed Him innocent.




Simple.
Pilate as well, didn’t believe Him to be the Christ. That’s my point.

For some reason I'm just not grasping what you're saying. I'll just have to put it to thought and prayer from here.

 

[chessman]

Sounds like you're saying that Judas being possessed by Satan was doing God's will through Satan's agency.

And after the piece-of-bread, at that time Satan entered into that one. Then Jesus says to him, “What you are doing, do quicker ”.​

John 13:27 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 13:27&version=DLNT

Was it God’s will for Judas to continue what he was doing, even quicker?

 

[chessman]

For some reason I'm just not grasping what you're saying.

If sharing the Gospel was a crime, would you say Paul was innocent or guilty of that crime?