What's new
  • Do not use Chrome Incognito when registering as it freezes the registration page.
  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses

Watchman Nee

Anto9us

Hab, Habakkuk3, DancesWithGnostics
Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2017
Messages
359
Gender
Male
#41
1Th 5:23

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole

spirit and soul and body

be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


I submit that this tripartite view of man (Trichotomist view) has been the biblical position since the earliest book of the New Testament was written -- Thessalonians in the 50's AD.

And Watchman Nee wrote extensively on this idea that spirit and soul are NOT the same thing.
 
Joined
Apr 7, 2016
Messages
983
#42
He learned much of what he knows from Jeannie Guyon.


JLB
I'm missing this connection completely. Madame Guyon was a devout Catholic in Europe, and of a completely different time period. And while I don't confess to be an expert on either Madame Guyon or Watchman Nee, I have and have read several of their books and their writings don't seem that similar to me. While I feel they both did indeed have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, I didn't see where their views were that similar. They both did suffer for their faith, but Guyon at the hands of the very Catholic church we really admired, but Watchman Nee from a government that he really didn't seem to admire. And there is enough in both of their writings to discuss, so why try to make a connection, and especially when you havn't shown any connection. Let Allen present his points and discuss them, thank you.
 
Joined
Apr 7, 2016
Messages
983
#43
I've found it to be very important to understand the make-up of man.
Some churches teach that man is a dichotomy: Body and soul.
Some teach that man is a trichotomy: Body, Soul and Spirit.
I believe it's clear that man has a a body, a soul and a spirit.
Understanding this helps us to understand how God lives in us.

To use the O.P.'s verse of 1 Thessalonians 5:23, we could view the trichotomy this way:



The body is physical and material. The bible calls it dust that will one day return to the earth. Ecclesiastes 12:7
It is neither righteous nor evil; it is amoral.
Our bodies are not perfect. They will become perfect, soma pneumatikon - spiritual bodies - 1 Corinthians 15:44.
It will experience weakness, sickness, fatigue. It is mortal, Hebrews 9:27

The soul is made up of the mind, the emotions, the will. The soul functions overlap each other. For instance, your mind function can be influenced by your emotion. The Greek word: Psuche means soul. The soul is amoral.

The Mind:
The capacity to think and reason. There is nothing righteous or evil in learning that two plus two is four, or that the sun is shining

Emotions:
The capacity to experience feeling. Emotion itself has nothing to do with morality. You are surprised when given a surprise birthday party. You are grieved when a pet dies. This is neither good nor bad.

The Will:
The capacity to choose or to desire. The function of the will is amoral. You can choose to put ketchup on your potatoes, or to set your alarm clock for a certain time.

The Spirit: Is that part of us that connects to God. It is moral, perfectible and immortal.
In scripture Spirit and Heart are used interchangeably.
A difference between the soul and the spirit is apparent, Hebrews 4:12
James tells us that the body without a spirit is dead, James 2:26
When we die our spirit will return to God who gave it, Ecclesiastes 12:7
Jesus yielded His spirit, Mathew 27:50
And when not in alignment with God, it can be troubled, Genesis 41:8

It Is Moral:
It is the center of the seat of the basic moral affections of man. Genesis 8:21
The Lord searches all hearts and understands intent, 1 Chronicles 28:9
With the heart, man believes, Romans 10:10
The heart, or spirit, deals with moral issues and thus it is intertwined with the soul of man.
There are some emotions which will be affected by the spirit, or lack thereof. There are some choices which will have everything to do with morality and the spirit, or lack thereof, will affect them. The lack would be a spirit lacking God. The heart or spirit is the control room where either Christ is in command or sin is in command.

It Is Perfectible:
Mathew 5:48 Be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect. Jesus meant this as a goal for now, something to work toward. If Jesus lives in us, the moral intent will be will be based on the purity of Jesus living in us via the Holy Spirit. The intent is love. 1 John 4:8-17 God is love...

It Is Immortal:
This "God part" of man will live on forever.

It's important to understand that our spirit is intertwined with the soul and that many soul functions can become moral when the spirit of man is considered.



.
I loved the post! I have indeed found it valuable to understand what you have written about. From a practical point, I find my body tends to drag my direction away form the Spirit of God which I seem to pick up with my spirit. So their is a part of me that is not my spirit which seem to like the Lord, and is not my body which likes what it wants, and I must think it is my soul (will, mind, emotions) as you have it. :thumbsup
 
Joined
Apr 7, 2016
Messages
983
#44
Now concerning Watch Man Nee, I generally kind of liked his writings, but there was one bit that I wondered about. He wrote something about how man has so much more power in our spirit than we know. He pointed to a couple of things to prove his point. He point to the power displayed by certain very spiritual people who clearly did not know God, like those who could make a rope stand up and then climb it. He seemed to assume that those people (because they didn't know God) had the power in themselves to do those things by faith. And he pointed to Adam and Eve in the garden and the instruction God gave them to watch over the entire garden which must have been huge and beyond their physical capabilities. Thus Adam and Eve must have had so much more spiritual capability than they thought.

There were problems I saw with that line of thinking. The first is that the Spirit of God is not the only spirit out there. Could a demon hold up a rope if a man was closely connected with that demon? If so, then it was not the man's spiritual ability, but an ungodly connection. That being the case, could Adam and Eve, through their close personal relationship (prayer) with God taken care of the Garden of Eden though it was beyond their physical capabilities.

Perhaps he is correct about us having more spiritual power that we know, but going down that line of thinking would seem to lead us away from God and into pride, instead of closer to God and in need of Him. So I concluded, after reading that part of what Watchman Nee wrote, that even if he is correct, the way it tended to lead me was incorrect. Better to search after God (thinking that He has the power) and what He asks me to do instead of thinking I have the power and thinking about what I think I should do.

Still, I found the writings interesting and there can be other conclusions and possibilities. If anyone would like to comment on them I'd consider them, but know that I would take them to the Lord so I would think any correct conclusion would support that action.
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Supporter
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
Messages
20,130
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
#45
I'm missing this connection completely. Madame Guyon was a devout Catholic in Europe, and of a completely different time period. And while I don't confess to be an expert on either Madame Guyon or Watchman Nee, I have and have read several of their books and their writings don't seem that similar to me. While I feel they both did indeed have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, I didn't see where their views were that similar. They both did suffer for their faith, but Guyon at the hands of the very Catholic church we really admired, but Watchman Nee from a government that he really didn't seem to admire. And there is enough in both of their writings to discuss, so why try to make a connection, and especially when you havn't shown any connection. Let Allen present his points and discuss them, thank you.
He studied and read her writings.

Experiencing the depths of Jesus Christ.



JLB
 
Joined
Apr 7, 2016
Messages
983
#46
He studied and read her writings.

Experiencing the depths of Jesus Christ.



JLB
I read her writings and like them, but what I read is not where I get my faith. My faith comes from talking and listening to my Lord Jesus Christ. I suspect he studied the Bible also and there is more to read there and it is even better. The Lord has me studied that more than anyone else's writings. And in 'Experiencing the depths of Jesus Christ" Madame Guyon wrote "Do you not know that the greatest book is Jesus Christ? He is a Book who has been written on within and without. He will teach you all things. Read Him! The first thing you must learn, dear friend, is that 'the kingdom of God is within you' (Luke 17:21)

So you can read the writings of Jeanne Guyon and not know that it is about know Jesus Christ the king of the Kingdom of God. And that you can personally pick Him up from within you. So why would we think that Watchman Nee was so connected to Madame Guyon when she was explaining, like the Bible explains also, that we are connected to Jesus Christ and His kingdom? So if there is any connection between the two it is Jesus Christ!
 

Anto9us

Hab, Habakkuk3, DancesWithGnostics
Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2017
Messages
359
Gender
Male
#47
So if there is any connection between the two it is Jesus Christ!
Well,gosh, LET'S HOPE SO !!

I can't find the links I want that show how Madame Guyon's writings were introduced to Watchman Nee by someone else and he studied them, I will keep looking.

In any case, I am glad there is some interest in this because on another board I have encountered Christians who think SPIRIT and SOUL are one and the same thing, saying they are DICHOTOMISTS rather than TRICHOTOMISTS who believe man is Spirit, Soul and Body -- I didn't know anyone believed this.

I thought it was universally accepted that Christians are Tripartite - and I don't know how Spirit and Soul can be one and the same if the word of God can divide them asunder like it says in Hebrews.
 
Joined
Apr 7, 2016
Messages
983
#48
Well,gosh, LET'S HOPE SO !!

I can't find the links I want that show how Madame Guyon's writings were introduced to Watchman Nee by someone else and he studied them, I will keep looking.

In any case, I am glad there is some interest in this because on another board I have encountered Christians who think SPIRIT and SOUL are one and the same thing, saying they are DICHOTOMISTS rather than TRICHOTOMISTS who believe man is Spirit, Soul and Body -- I didn't know anyone believed this.

I thought it was universally accepted that Christians are Tripartite - and I don't know how Spirit and Soul can be one and the same if the word of God can divide them asunder like it says in Hebrews.
Yeah, I thought it was generally accepted that man was spirit, soul, and body. However I don't see what Madame Guyon's writings has to do with Watchman Nee's writings, even if somehow he was introduced to them. I don't see where the two authors have a lot in common except for the Lord. That is to say, none of what I read from Watchman Nee reminded me much of what Madame Guyon wrote, except the obvious, which is Jesus Christ. You might as well compare him to C. S. Lewis or any other Christian writer. Watchman Nee had a rather unique perspective on many things and some interesting ways of analyzing them. So what I did read of his writings were interesting, and I liked Madame Guyon's writings also, but similar? I don't see it, and Allen wanted to discuss Watchman Nee. I'm curious what he wants to talk about and see Guyon being mention a bunny trail. So if you do make an interesting connection, find, but while there has been statements saying there is a big connection, nothing has yet to be provided?
 

Site Goal

Total amount
$285.00
Goal
$5,020.00