Bible Study WELCOME TO AN IN DEPTH STUDY OF MATTHEW'S GOSPEL.

[dianegcook]

Will God forgive us if we don't repent?
Luke 17:3,4
Take heed to yourselves, if thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him, and IF HE REPENT, thou shalt forgive him.
And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent, thou shalt forgive him.
Now this is a brother!
What if some heathen done something to you and especially don't repent and ask for forgiveness?
Imho, punish him through law, or whatever.
I will try, to not let it control me, for vengeance belongs to the Lord.
If some heathen comes to my house, intending to harm me or the family, there might be some buck shot.

 

[ezrider]

Now this is a brother!
What if some heathen done something to you and especially don't repent and ask for forgiveness?

Stating that this is a brother, But What if......?

To me, this statement implies self justification. Jesus said love your enemies, do good to those who spitefully use you......

So if you try and justify yourself by distinguishing between a "brother" and a "heathen" and how you treat them, how then would you distinguish between a "brother" and a "neighbor"? Or between a "neighbor" and a "heathen"? If your neighbor should trespass against you seven times........If he repent, should you forgive him?


Luke 10:26-29
He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

 

[Malachi]

And last but not least. Yes. I do have a problem with one aspect of forgiveness. I can't forgive totally evil people. Am I supposed to?? Like Stalin, or Hitler, Joseph Mengele, mass murderers and others who I feel are almost evil incarnate. It makes me feel like I would be forgiving satan himself. The evil is too evil and the dark too dark. I see no light in them at all.

Christ's teaching on forgiveness applies primarily to personal relationships, not to monsters, or to those who deliberately butcher millions of innocents. Indeed at His Second Coming Christ will utterly destroy His enemies and send them to Hell. See Revelation 19 and other Scriptures. The unholy trinity (the Devil, the Beast, and the False Prophet) will all be cast into the Lake of Fire.

 

[GodsGrace]

Christ's teaching on forgiveness applies primarily to personal relationships, not to monsters, or to those who deliberately butcher millions of innocents. Indeed at His Second Coming Christ will utterly destroy His enemies and send them to Hell. See Revelation 19 and other Scriptures. The unholy trinity (the Devil, the Beast, and the False Prophet) will all be cast into the Lake of Fire.

Whew!
Thanks Malachi.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

deleted- duplicate

 

[GodsGrace]

Will God forgive us if we don't repent?
Luke 17:3,4
Take heed to yourselves, if thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him, and IF HE REPENT, thou shalt forgive him.
And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent, thou shalt forgive him.
Now this is a brother!
What if some heathen done something to you and especially don't repent and ask for forgiveness?
Imho, punish him through law, or whatever.
I will try, to not let it control me, for vengeance belongs to the Lord.
If some heathen comes to my house, intending to harm me or the family, there might be some buck shot.

If he repent thou shalt forgive him. Luke 17:3-4

This just means that if someone does us harm and they come to us and ask for forgiveness, we are to forgive them and accept the reconciliation they offer.

It does NOT mean that we are NOT to forgive persons who do us harm, and do NOT ask us for forgiveness. We are also to forgive those who do not ask for forgiveness. Some person may not care if we forgive them or not, some person may do harm because that is just their nature.

Coupled with the parable of the Good Samaritan, Mathew 18:21.22 completes the thought.
We are always to forgive, even when not asked.

Wondering

 

[eddif]

Matthew 10:34 KJV
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

I Corinthians 5:9 KJV
I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

eddif

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So if you try and justify yourself by distinguishing between a "brother" and a "heathen"

Are you saying Christ is telling us to 'justify ourselves' when he tells us to distinguish between believers and unbelievers? The criterion for that distinguishing being whether or not they reconcile with you in the matter of interpersonal conflicts.

The mark of the one you should consider to be an unbeliever (per Jesus' own words) is that they are quite content with remaining in contention and division with those they have differences with and have no desire for peaceful resolution..

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I read once that if we don't forgive, we are hindering God somehow in how He treats us. This I've never understood. It would be nice to have some views on this.

"...if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering." (Matthew 5:23-24 NASB)

You're kidding yourself if you think you can not be at peace with people, particularly the church, and still enjoy manifest fellowship with God. 'Taint gonna happen. The sad part is when a person can't tell the difference in their relationship with God when he treats others badly or makes no effort at reconciliation. Reminds me of when Samson did not realize he had no power until he reached for it and then knew his covering--the glory of God--had left him because of his disobedience.

 

[GodsGrace]

Matthew 10:34 KJV
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

I Corinthians 5:9 KJV
I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

eddif

Your first pp has nothing to do with forgiveness. It just means that Jesus will cause division. One will believe in Jesus and his mother won't. The mother will believe in Jesus but the husband won't, and so on.
It doesn't really mean that Jesus came to bring WAR and not peace.
Hebrews 4:12

The second pp also has nothing to do with forgiving. It says not to hang around with bad dudes. You might influence THEM, which would be good - but they might influence YOU, which would be bad.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

"...if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering." (Matthew 5:23-24 NASB)

You're kidding yourself if you think you can not be at peace with people, particularly the church, and still enjoy manifest fellowship with God. 'Taint gonna happen. The sad part is when a person can't tell the difference in their relationship with God when he treats others badly or makes no effort at reconciliation. Reminds me of when Samson did not realize he had no power until he reached for it and then knew his covering--the glory of God--had left him because of his disobedience.

Jethro,
Yeah, the above is right. I have the feeling it goes a little deeper than this. But I have no real idea of what it could mean.

Fellowship with God is affected by different things, illness, omission of being immersed in the word, not being with other believers, being upset with someone, sin, etc. So not forgiving someone would affect the relationship in the same way. Could this be all it means?

Wondering

 

[ezrider]

Are you saying Christ is telling us to 'justify ourselves' when he tells us to distinguish between believers and unbelievers?

Absolutely not. And quite frankly, I can not fathom how you would come to that conclusion based on what I posted. But it appears by your statement that your desire is to first judge whether they are a believer or an unbeliever, and then determine the measure of you forgiveness.
We are not to justify ourselves, because we justify ourselves by the law: But it is Christ who justifies us by our Faith.

The mark of the one you should consider to be an unbeliever (per Jesus' own words) is that they are quite content with remaining in contention and division with those they have differences with and have no desire for peaceful resolution..

It seems to me that you are defining an unbeliever as someone who remains in contention with those they have differences with and no desire for peaceful resolution. Would you consider an unbeliever according to your definition as a Brother?

There is a section on this forum under the End Times that is dedicated to the discussion of Preterism. Now in that particular forum the discussion can at some times become very heated and quite contentious. I have observed a great divide between the beliefs of the preterist versus the futurist, with no desire for a peaceful resolution from either party. Therefore, are they both then to be considered as unbelievers? According to your definition it must be so. If you hold to the futurist view point, do you consider someone of the preterist view point to be a believer, and more importantly, a Brother? (Or vice versa?). I would certainly still consider them to be a brother.

(THIS IS ONLY MEANT AS AN EXAMPLE OF A CONTENTIOUS DISAGREEMENT THAT IS EASILY RELATE-ABLE. PLEASE DO NOT TRY AND MAKE THIS POST ABOUT PRETERISM). ez

If Jesus had used the word neighbor instead of the word brother, would it change the spirit of the message being conveyed by Jesus?
If your neighbor should trespass against you seven times........If he repent, should you forgive him? Even unto seventy times seven?

 

[dianegcook]

Stating that this is a brother, But What if......?

To me, this statement implies self justification. Jesus said love your enemies, do good to those who spitefully use you......

So if you try and justify yourself by distinguishing between a "brother" and a "heathen" and how you treat them, how then would you distinguish between a "brother" and a "neighbor"? Or between a "neighbor" and a "heathen"? If your neighbor should trespass against you seven times........If he repent, should you forgive him?


Luke 10:26-29
He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

I will love my neighbor , just not happy how one acts.
One of them is a heroin addict, has stolen from his parents, neighbors, not us yet, thank God.
If he breaks in, should I just let it go?
I should not give him any hand outs....
That is tough love...
When he gets hungry, should I feed him, had money to get his stuff.
How can one get up on his own 2 legs, when everyone gives him what he wants?

Just like I did with my own children, I love them, I know what was best for them, thus did not spare the rod.
Tough love ...
I loved them by telling them The Way.
Self justification, I think not..
We are not suppose to be 2nd class citizens and act like door mats, imho.

 

[dianegcook]

If he repent thou shalt forgive him. Luke 17:3-4

This just means that if someone does us harm and they come to us and ask for forgiveness, we are to forgive them and accept the reconciliation they offer.

It does NOT mean that we are NOT to forgive persons who do us harm, and do NOT ask us for forgiveness. We are also to forgive those who do not ask for forgiveness. Some person may not care if we forgive them or not, some person may do harm because that is just their nature.

Coupled with the parable of the Good Samaritan, Mathew 18:21.22 completes the thought.
We are always to forgive, even when not asked.

Wondering

Hi
Good Samaritan?
Can't make the connection.
Someone beat up laying on the road, well yes, I do have compassion.
Why would I need to forgive him?
As I stated above, hard to forgive someone that shows no remorse, I let it go and let God have the vengeance.
Self defense is not sinful, imho....

 

[dianegcook]

What will be the end of God's enemies?
He loves all....

 

[reba]

I will love my neighbor , just not happy how one acts.
One of them is a heroin addict, has stolen from his parents, neighbors, not us yet, thank God.
If he breaks in, should I just let it go?
I should not give him any hand outs....
That is tough love...
When he gets hungry, should I feed him, had money to get his stuff.
How can one get up on his own 2 legs, when everyone gives him what he wants?

Just like I did with my own children, I love them, I know what was best for them, thus did not spare the rod.
Tough love ...
I loved them by telling them The Way.
Self justification, I think not..
We are not suppose to be 2nd class citizens and act like door mats, imho.

It was love when mom swatted your behind for being in the street...
It was love that told you NO more candy tonight\
It was love that forced ya to get the home work done..
a parent that never says no is a coward..

 

[dianegcook]

It was love when mom swatted your behind for being in the street...
It was love that told you NO more candy tonight\
It was love that forced ya to get the home work done..
a parent that never says no is a coward..

Amen!
One has to make a stand sometimes, lol.

 

[reba]

If God answered every prayer of mine in the affirmative my husband would have died years ago..

 

[Malachi]

What will be the end of God's enemies?
He loves all....

Yes, God loves all, but since His enemies hate Him, they must bear the consequences. God will make Christ's enemies his "footstool" meaning that they will be metaphorically crushed under His feet. Christ is a Rock of Offence, and those who push against that Rock are crushed.

 

[eddif]

I learn from the natural. Romans 1:19-20
One thing that is in my forth mental digestive area right now - is this discussion. Do not freak - it will seem strange to some.

Penicillin is a harmful drug to some bacteria. It will penetrate tissue and target pockets of infection like no other drug (for specific dental bacteria for instance). If you have a dental infection it is great (no other drug is as effective, but I realize there are some drugs that kind of work).
However
If you are allergic to penicillin you can not reap the benefit of a harmful strong drug.
Thus
Some people think that God does not use discipline to correct anyone. An adverse reaction in these thoughts prevents good from coming out of punishment.
If we are without correction (both the application and acceptance of corrections final work).
Then
Correction does not work for us. You might as well forget root canals and pull the tooth (remove the person from the church). Out of the church the discipline seems to work. The person can be brought back into the fold.

Sometimes you can go into symbolism to learn. Others think symbolism is heresy (adverse reaction).

eddif