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What does the sun, moon, and stars represent in Bible prophecy?

D

DaveRC

Guest
#1
That is, the Jewish heaven shall perish, and the sun and moon of its glory and happiness shall be darkened -- brought to nothing. The sun is the religion of the Jewish church, the moon is the government of the Jewish state; and the stars are the judges and doctors of both. Compare Isa. xiii. 10; Ezek. xxxii. 7, 8.

John Lightfoot, A Commentary on the New Testament from the Talmud anf Hebraica: Matthew-1 Corinthians

The darkening of the sun and moon, the falling of the stars, and the shaking of the powers of heaven, denote the utter extinction of the light of prosperity and privilage to the Jewish nation; the unhinging of their whole constitution in church and state; the violent subversion of the authority of their princes and priests; the abject miseries to which the people in general, especially their chief persons, would be reduced; the moral or religious darkness they would be consigned.

Thomas Scott, The Holy Bible Containing the Old and New Testaments; with explanatory notes, practical observations, and copious marginal references

Thus it is that in prophetic language great commotions and revolutions upon the earth, are often represented by commotions and changes in the heavens.

Thomas Newton, Dissertations on the Prophecies

Our Saviour goes on, to set forth the calamities that should befall the Jewish nation, immediately after the destruction of Jerusalem. So entire was the subversion of their ecclesiastical and civil state, that it may be metaphorically represented by the sun, moon, and stars, losing their light, and all the heavenly bodies being dissolved.

W. Dalton, An Explanatory and Practical Commentary on the New Testament

In ancient Hieroglyphic writings the sun, moon, and stars represented empires and states, with their sovereigns and nobility. The eclipse of these luminaries was said to denote temporary national disasters, or an entire overthrow of any state. This is still an Eastern mode of writing, and there are some classical examples of it. The Prophets frequently employ it, so that their style seems to be a speaking hieroglyphic. Thus Isaiah describes the destruction of Babylon, and Ezekiel describes that of Egypt - in accordance with this prediction, Josephus gives an account of the persecution and slaughter of the nobility and principal men in the city by the infuriated Zealots, comparing their number at twelve thousand.

John Forster, The Gospel-Narrative

In ancient cultures these astronomical symbols represented rulers.

Allen Ross, The Bible Knowledge Commentary

We might fill volumes with extracts showing how exegates and writers of New Testament doctrine assume as principal not to be questioned that such highly wrought language as Matt. xxiv, 29-31... taken almost verbatim from Old Testament prophecies of judgment on nations and kingdoms which long ago perished, must be literally understood. Too little study of Old Testament ideas of judgment, and apocalyptic language and style, would seem to be the main reason for this one sided exegesis. It will require more than assertion to convince thoughtful men that the figurative language of Isaiah and Daniel, admitted on all hands to be such in those ancient prophets, is to be literally interpreted when used by Jesus or Paul.

Milton S. Terry, Biblical Hermeneutics

ON GENESIS 37:9:

The second dream involved celestial images - the sun, the moon, and stars being easily recognized for their significance for rulership.

Allen Ross, Creation and Blessing

Almost the same symbols appeared in the visions of the apostle John (Revelation 12:1), again probably representing Israel and the twelve tribes.

Henry M. Morris, The Genesis Record

ON REVELATION 12:1:

The sun, moon, and stars indicate a complete system of government and remind the reader of Genesis 37:9. God had caused royal dignity to rest in Israel in the line of David.

Charles L. Feinberg, Liberty Bible Commentary
 
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#2
Gen 37:5 And Joseph dreamed a dream, and he told it his brethren: and they hated him yet the more.
Gen 37:6 And he said unto them, Hear, I pray you, this dream which I have dreamed:
Gen 37:7 For, behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and, lo, my sheaf arose, and also stood upright; and, behold, your sheaves stood round about, and made obeisance to my sheaf.
Gen 37:8 And his brethren said to him, Shalt thou indeed reign over us? or shalt thou indeed have dominion over us? And they hated him yet the more for his dreams, and for his words.
Gen 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
Gen 37:10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?
 
D

DaveRC

Guest
#3
A. Prophecy
B. Prophetic language used
C. Fulfilled

A. Isaiah 13:1,6-13
730 BC

B.
-the day of the Lord is near
-hands fall limp, man's hearts melt, terror
-stars of heaven and constellations will not flash forth their light, sun dark when it rises, moon not shed light, heavens shake, earth tremble

C. Babylon
539 BC

A. Isaiah 19:1
730 BC

B.
-Lord riding on a swift cloud and is about to come to Egypt
-the idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence

C. Egypt
480 BC

A. Isaiah 34:4-5
730 BC

B.
-all host of heaven (stars) will wear away
-sky rolled up like a scroll, all their hosts will wither

C. Edom
before 400BC

A. Ezekiel 30:3-4
590 BC

B.
-The day of the Lord is near
-It will be a day of clouds,

C. Egypt
480 BC

A. Ezekiel 32:7-8
590 BC

B.
-I will extinguish Egypt
-heavens covered, stars darkened, cover sun with cloud, moon not give light shining lights in the heavens will be dark, darkness on the land

C. Egypt
480 BC

A. Amos 5:18-20
755 BC

B.
-day of the lord
-it will be darkness and not light, gloom with no brightness in it

C. Israel
722 BC

A. Amos 8:9
755 BC

B.
-sun go down at noon
-earth dark in broad daylight

C. Israel
722 BC

A. Zephaniah 1:7,
14-16
630 BC

B.
-Near is the great day of the Lord, near and coming very quickly
-a day of wrath, trouble, distress, destruction, desolation, darkness, gloom, clouds, thick darkness
-a day of trumpet and battle cry

C. Jerusalem
586 BC

A. Jeremiah 4:14-16, 19,23-28
6:1,22
626-586BC

B.
-sound of trumpet, alarm of war
-no light, heavens above dark
-Yet I will not execute a complete destruction
-a people is coming from the north, a great nation: Babylon

C. Jerusalem
586 BC

A. Jeremiah 46:2-12

B.
-I will cover the earth
-For this is the day of the Lord

C. Egypt
605 BC

A. Nahum 1:1-5

B.
-The mountains quake
-the hills melt
-the earth is burned
-the world, and all that dwell therein.

C. Nineveh
612 BC

A. 2 Samuel 22:6-17,21,25 Psalm 18

B.
- David describes his deliverance from his enemies as if the world was destroyed. ?

A. Joel 2:28 + Ax 2:16
830 BC

B.
-great and awesome day of the Lord
-blood, fire, columns of smoke, sun into darkness, moon into blood,

C. All Jews
30 AD

A. Matthew 24:29-30
30 AD

B.
-sign of son coming on clouds
-sun darkened, moon turned to blood, stars fall from sky, roaring of sea & waves, men fainting from fear, heavens shaken

C. Jerusalem
70 AD

A. Matthew 26:64
30 AD

B.
-Son of man sitting at right hand of power, coming on clouds of heaven

C. Jerusalem
70 AD

A. 2 Peter 3:10-13
67AD

B.
-Day of Lord will come
-Heavens will pass away with roar, elements destroyed with intense heat, earth and works burnt up

C. Jerusalem
70 AD

A. Revelation 1:7
68-69 AD

B.
-Christ is coming with clouds

C. Jerusalem
70 AD

A. Acts 1:9-11
30 AD

B.
-Christ will return in same way he left...with clouds

C. Jerusalem 70 AD
 
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JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
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#4
A. Prophecy
B. Prophetic language used
C. Fulfilled

A. Isaiah 13:1,6-13
730 BC

B.
-the day of the Lord is near
-hands fall limp, man's hearts melt, terror
-stars of heaven and constellations will not flash forth their light, sun dark when it rises, moon not shed light, heavens shake, earth tremble

C. Babylon
539 BC

A. Isaiah 19:1
730 BC

B.
-Lord riding on a swift cloud and is about to come to Egypt
-the idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence

C. Egypt
480 BC

A. Isaiah 34:4-5
730 BC

B.
-all host of heaven (stars) will wear away
-sky rolled up like a scroll, all their hosts will wither

C. Edom
before 400BC

A. Ezekiel 30:3-4
590 BC

B.
-The day of the Lord is near
-It will be a day of clouds,

C. Egypt
480 BC

A. Ezekiel 32:7-8
590 BC

B.
-I will extinguish Egypt
-heavens covered, stars darkened, cover sun with cloud, moon not give light shining lights in the heavens will be dark, darkness on the land

C. Egypt
480 BC

A. Amos 5:18-20
755 BC

B.
-day of the lord
-it will be darkness and not light, gloom with no brightness in it

C. Israel
722 BC

A. Amos 8:9
755 BC

B.
-sun go down at noon
-earth dark in broad daylight

C. Israel
722 BC

A. Zephaniah 1:7,
14-16
630 BC

B.
-Near is the great day of the Lord, near and coming very quickly
-a day of wrath, trouble, distress, destruction, desolation, darkness, gloom, clouds, thick darkness
-a day of trumpet and battle cry

C. Jerusalem
586 BC

A. Jeremiah 4:14-16, 19,23-28
6:1,22
626-586BC

B.
-sound of trumpet, alarm of war
-no light, heavens above dark
-Yet I will not execute a complete destruction
-a people is coming from the north, a great nation: Babylon

C. Jerusalem
586 BC

A. Jeremiah 46:2-12

B.
-I will cover the earth
-For this is the day of the Lord

C. Egypt
605 BC

A. Nahum 1:1-5

B.
-The mountains quake
-the hills melt
-the earth is burned
-the world, and all that dwell therein.

C. Nineveh
612 BC

A. 2 Samuel 22:6-17,21,25 Psalm 18

B.
- David describes his deliverance from his enemies as if the world was destroyed. ?

A. Joel 2:28 + Ax 2:16
830 BC

B.
-great and awesome day of the Lord
-blood, fire, columns of smoke, sun into darkness, moon into blood,

C. All Jews
30 AD

A. Matthew 24:29-30
30 AD

B.
-sign of son coming on clouds
-sun darkened, moon turned to blood, stars fall from sky, roaring of sea & waves, men fainting from fear, heavens shaken

C. Jerusalem
70 AD

A. Matthew 26:64
30 AD

B.
-Son of man sitting at right hand of power, coming on clouds of heaven

C. Jerusalem
70 AD

A. 2 Peter 3:10-13
67AD

B.
-Day of Lord will come
-Heavens will pass away with roar, elements destroyed with intense heat, earth and works burnt up

C. Jerusalem
70 AD

A. Revelation 1:7
68-69 AD

B.
-Christ is coming with clouds

C. Jerusalem
70 AD

A. Acts 1:9-11
30 AD

B.
-Christ will return in same way he left...with clouds

C. Jerusalem 70 AD

When people list their opinion, and "tag" their opinion with a scripture reference, that's a great signal to just ignore the nonsense they are pushing.

However, in your case, I will make an exception.

  • Please show us where in the Olivet Discourse, the language of the Temple being destroyed is found?

Here the coming of the Lord, all the people of the earth will see Him, and all of His people are gathered together, whether on Earth or in Heaven, for the great day of Judgement, none of which is associated with the events of 70 AD.

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 24:29-31

The teaching culminates with Christ Jesus taking His place on the Throne in Jerusalem, to judge the nations, and reign as King over the whole earth.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 25:31-46


Have you been before the throne of Jesus Christ on Earth and heard Him say to you, one of two things?

  • ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
or
  • ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:


JLB
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
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Messages
19,648
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#5
B.
-Christ will return in same way he left...with clouds

C. Jerusalem 70 AD

Where is the scripture that says He came with the clouds in 70 AD?



JLB
 
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Messages
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#6
JLB Has nothing happened sense the Scriptures were put together?

DaveRC the style of posting you choose is very hard to follow..
 
D

DaveRC

Guest
#7
Where is the scripture that says He came with the clouds in 70 AD?



JLB
Only Yahweh comes in clouds of Glory and clouds represent judgment - Psalm 97:2. Jesus said what Father had done He would do also - John 5:19. And that the Father committed all judgment to the Son - John 5:22. God has judged nations many times prior in the past. I posted a list of fulfilled prophecies and their apocalyptic language.

God committed all judgment to the Son and the Son will perform this judgment in the same manner as the Father had done in the past.

Coming in clouds of Glory is a proclamation of deity by Christ. Because that is an attribute only God possesses. But you're literal hermeneutic is over-literalizing its core message. Its proverbially going over your head that Christ shares the attributes of God, the core message of Jesus` words.

That is why it evoked such a hostile response from Caiaphas - Matthew 26:64.
 
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D

DaveRC

Guest
#8
When people list their opinion, and "tag" their opinion with a scripture reference, that's a great signal to just ignore the nonsense they are pushing.

However, in your case, I will make an exception.

  • Please show us where in the Olivet Discourse, the language of the Temple being destroyed is found?

Here the coming of the Lord, all the people of the earth will see Him, and all of His people are gathered together, whether on Earth or in Heaven, for the great day of Judgement, none of which is associated with the events of 70 AD.

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 24:29-31

The teaching culminates with Christ Jesus taking His place on the Throne in Jerusalem, to judge the nations, and reign as King over the whole earth.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 25:31-46


Have you been before the throne of Jesus Christ on Earth and heard Him say to you, one of two things?

  • ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
or
  • ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:


JLB
Do you agree that Matthew 16:27-28 corroborates with Revelation 3:10-11and Revelation 22:12?

Or that James 5:7-9 and 1 Peter 4:5,7,17 corroborates with Matthew 23:29-39?

Or that 1 Corinthians 10:11, Hebrews 1:2, Hebrews 9:26, and 1 Peter 1:20 all corroborate on the time placement of the last days and the end of the age?

Great white throne of judgment occurs when Christ both judges the living and the dead from His Kingdom in Heaven - Daniel 7:13-14.

Christ received the Glory He possessed before the earth was even conceived - John 17:5. Christ no longer possesses a bodily form per se but a "preincarnate" Glory. John 18:36 & 1 Corinthians 15:50.

Planet earth is not our ETERNAL inheritance btw - 1 Peter 1:4
 
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JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
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#9
Do you agree that Matthew 16:27-28 corroborates with Revelation 3:10-11and Revelation 22:12?

Or that James 5:7-9 and 1 Peter 4:5,7,17 corroborates with Matthew 23:29-39?

Or that 1 Corinthians 10:11, Hebrews 1:2, Hebrews 9:26, and 1 Peter 1:20 all corroborate on the time placement of the last days and the end of the age?



Christ received the Glory He possessed before the earth was even conceived - John 17:5. Christ no longer possesses a bodily form per se but a "preincarnate" Glory. John 18:36 & 1 Corinthians 15:50.

Planet earth is not our ETERNAL inheritance btw - 1 Peter 1:4

The kingdom of God is our eternal inheritance.


Only Yahweh comes in clouds of Glory and clouds represent judgment
Yes, Jesus is YHWH, the Lord God of Israel, who will come with His saints to Jerusalem, and rule from His throne there as King over the whole earth.

Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.


It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
It shall be one day
Which is known to the Lord—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.

And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.
And the Lord shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—
“The Lord is one,”
And His name one.
Zechariah 14:5-9


JLB
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
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Messages
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#10
Great white throne of judgment occurs when Christ both judges the living and the dead from His Kingdom in Heaven - Daniel 7:13-14.
More of your opinion, "tagged" with a scripture reference.


Jesus will judge all the nations on earth, from His throne in Jerusalem.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:31-34.41


Jesus will reign on earth, and the faithful will reign with Him for 1000 years.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

  • Heaven and earth fled from Him Who sits on the throne, Jesus Christ the Judge.

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:4-15




JLB
 
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D

DaveRC

Guest
#12
More of your opinion, "tagged" with a scripture reference.


Jesus will judge all the nations on earth, from His throne in Jerusalem.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:31-34.41


Jesus will reign on earth, and the faithful will reign with Him for 1000 years.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

  • Heaven and earth fled from Him Who sits on the throne, Jesus Christ the Judge.

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:4-15




JLB
The Son of Man was given His Kingdom during the Roman Empires, Daniel 2:44 and Daniel 7:13-14.

His Kingdom comes not with observation - Luke 17:20-21

His Kingdom is not of this world -John 18:36

Flesh and blood can not inherit His Kingdom - 1 Corinthians 15:50 & Matthew 22:30

The increase of His Kingdom shall never cease - Isaiah 9:7

Son Of Man possesses all the Glory or attributes in His Kingdom He had before the earth was conceived (God is a Spirit) - John 17:5
 
D

DaveRC

Guest
#13
On Acts 1:11
"With this understanding of parousia, the account of Christ’s ascension in Acts 1:9–11 should be read and interpreted. The central idea here in the coming of Christ is not that of a return, much less a physical return, but of an arrival of Christ as determined according to the manner of His ascension. The real meaning of "in like manner," as that which qualifies His arrival, is missed in my opinion, when it is interpreted as a reference to the outward physical circumstances of His ascension. Rather, the focus is on the person – this same Jesus. He is the resurrected Jesus who no longer is of the aeon of flesh but who is the Lord and Christ of the new aeon of life. He ascends totally enveloped in the glory and power of God. Hence, this same Jesus will come; i.e., He will arrive "apart from sin" (Heb. 9:28), according to the very manner that "ye have seen him go into heaven."
 

JLB

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#14
The Son of Man was given His Kingdom during the Roman Empires, Daniel 2:44 and Daniel 7:13-14.

None of the scripture references say what your claiming, which is why you won't write out the scripture.

44 And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. Daniel 2:44

This says nothing of what you are claiming.

13 “I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!

He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.
Daniel 7:13-14

When Jesus returns to earth, on the clouds of Heaven, then He will sit as King over the whole earth.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:31-34


That is a Day we all are looking forward to.


When He does, all the kingdoms of this world will have become the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ.

15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” Revelation 11:15


This is what the dream Daniel shows us from Daniel 2, as all of the ungodly kingdoms of this world will be destroyed and no trace of them will be found.

34 You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth. Daniel 2:34-35

No trace of them was found, after Jesus returns, in which His kingdom will fill the whole earth.

And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.


For now, we see wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes, famines, pestilences, which marks the time of the end just before the great tribulation, and before we will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with power and great glory.


6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come...29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24;6-14, 29-31



JLB
 
D

DaveRC

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#15
None of the scripture references say what your claiming, which is why you won't write out the scripture.

44 And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. Daniel 2:44

This says nothing of what you are claiming.

13 “I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!

He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.
Daniel 7:13-14

When Jesus returns to earth, on the clouds of Heaven, then He will sit as King over the whole earth.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:31-34


That is a Day we all are looking forward to.


When He does, all the kingdoms of this world will have become the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ.

15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” Revelation 11:15


This is what the dream Daniel shows us from Daniel 2, as all of the ungodly kingdoms of this world will be destroyed and no trace of them will be found.

34 You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth. Daniel 2:34-35

No trace of them was found, after Jesus returns, in which His kingdom will fill the whole earth.

And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.


For now, we see wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes, famines, pestilences, which marks the time of the end just before the great tribulation, and before we will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with power and great glory.


6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come...29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24;6-14, 29-31



JLB
In the days of these kings is in reference to the kings of Rome. The kingdom of iron and clay, the fourth terrible beast.

Daniel 2:44

Daniel 7:13-14 was fulfilled when Christ ascended to Heaven depicted in Acts 1.

Daniel 7:13-14 takes place in Heaven.

Matthew 25:31 takes place in Heaven.

Christ ascended into heaven to receive His Kingdom (Acts 2:32-36), during the days of the kings of Rome! Daniel 2:44.

The whole earth is the Lord`s.
 

JLB

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#16
In the days of these kings is in reference to the kings of Rome. The kingdom of iron and clay, the fourth terrible beast.

Daniel 2:44

Daniel 7:13-14 was fulfilled when Christ ascended to Heaven depicted in Acts 1.

Daniel 7:13-14 takes place in Heaven.

Matthew 25:31 takes place in Heaven.

Christ ascended into heaven to receive His Kingdom (Acts 2:32-36), during the days of the kings of Rome! Daniel 2:44.

The whole earth is the Lord`s.
More nonsense with no scripture.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:31-34

This event takes place on earth, when the Son of Man comes from heaven to earth, to take His place in Jerusalem as King over the whole earth.

This is the context of the Olivet Discourse.

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”




JLB
 
D

DaveRC

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#17
More nonsense with no scripture.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:31-34

This event takes place on earth, when the Son of Man comes from heaven to earth, to take His place in Jerusalem as King over the whole earth.

This is the context of the Olivet Discourse.

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”




JLB
Did Christ predict a return in a literal fleshly body, as most modern believers suggest? Or was Christ's coming to be an event in which He would come in the same way His Father had come, many times, in the Old Covenant? The latter is the clearly stated truth. The Gordian Knot problem of the New testament time statements of the nearness of the end is unraveling in light of a better understanding of the nature of Christ's parousia (presence). In short, Jesus did not promise to come back in a physical body! He promised to come as the Father had come, and that precludes a visible, bodily coming! That Christ's second coming was not to be a bodily, physical, visible return; but a manifestation of His Sovereignty as He came, in the Glory of the Father!
 

JLB

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#18
Did Christ predict a return in a literal fleshly body, as most modern believers suggest?
9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” Acts 1:9-11

He will come the same way He left.
He will be seen in His resurrected Body.

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 24:29-31


JLB
 

JLB

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#19
Or was Christ's coming to be an event in which He would come in the same way His Father had come, many times, in the Old Covenant?

You would have to show the scriptures for what you are referring to, since it was Christ who appeared to people in the Old Testament, and not God the Father.


JLB
 

JLB

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#20
That Christ's second coming was not to be a bodily, physical, visible return; but a manifestation of His Sovereignty as He came, in the Glory of the Father!
9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” Acts 1:9-11

He will come the same way He left.
He will be seen in His resurrected Body.

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 24:29-31


JLB