Bible Study What In The World Is FAITH?

[King Dan of Great the 1st]

How did Moses believe Elohim with his whole heart when he constantly was trying to make excuses all the time.

 

[Jim Parker]

They had faith because they believed Yahweh could be trusted.

Yes.
And based on the belief and trust, "by faith" the DID something; they acted on their faith.
Not to act on ones faith is a demonstration of dead faith that will not save anyone.
By faith, we are supposed to imitate Christ. ( 1Co 11:1)
That requires action on our part.

iakov the fool

 

[GodsGrace]

Consider the person who has faith that the elevator will take him up but uses the stairs because he doesn't trust the elevator.
Does he really have faith?
Or does he just believe that the elevator takes people up and down but prefers his own way?
Faith is meaningless without faithfulness.
Faithfulness is deciding to do "it" God's way instead of my way.

What Biblical faith is NOT is the belief that a set of teachings accurately represents reality but requires no response on the part of the believer other than to acknowledge that accuracy to be fact.

iakov the fool

Amen to your last paragraph.

 

[GodsGrace]

Faith means the trustworthiness or reliance on Gods word for his salvation for us who believe in him. It's a belief in the promises and blessings of his word and applying his word to our daily walk with him by seeing the confidence in the testimony of others.

The nature of faith is seen through the fruits of the Spirit, which are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance, which these fruits brings about kindness, self control and faithfulness through the works of God that comes from our heart.

Faith gives us freedom from condemnation and freedom of salvation through adoption as we become one body in the Lord as we walk by faith, live by faith, pray by faith and resist evil by faith. By faith we are an overcomer of this world as we stand fast and are grounded in Gods word knowing we have assurance of all of his promises that makes us victorious in all things here on earth by us applying his word to our lives to know for a surety that he will never leave us or forsake us.

Faith is a living reality in ones life through Gods service by declaring his word as we bear witness to his name by the mighty works he has done. It’s not even our faith, but that of Jesus who is our faith as we believe in who he has said he was and to the glory and honor that he has brought before the Father through his life, death and resurrection that we to can become heirs to the throne of grace by coming boldly to his throne and surrendering all of us to him to be Lord and Savior of our life.
Hebrews Chapter 11 is all about faith.

 

[Chopper]

If a person should go the the original Paleo Hebrew, which is the oldest Hebrew, you'll notice the absence of the word faith. What you will find, is the word belief, not faith.

 

[GodsGrace]

If a person should go the the original Paleo Hebrew, which is the oldest Hebrew, you'll notice the absence of the word faith. What you will find, is the word belief, not faith.

Runner in post 20 says that he thinks belief and faith are not the same.
Maybe because he's thinking of believe the way we use it and not what it means in the Greek?
Although I'm sure he knows the Greek believe too.

I came to this conclusion from his example.
He might want to comment.

Having faith IN something and
Believing IN something is the same.

Your post brings this to mind.
Also, words do not exist where the concept does not exist. This is true for all languages.
In the depths of South America, the word Television does not exist. And many others.

I don't believe Trust would be a good synonym.
Trust would, however, be included with both Faith and Belief.

I watched the video.
The rapture never interested me too much.
Why do you think it's important to know?

 

[stovebolts]

So many of my Brothers and Sisters don't really know what is "faith" and how to project our mustard seed amount of faith in order to accomplish what we determine, in the Ruach Kodesh (Holy Spirit), that Elohim (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) wants done to glorify His Name, and come to the aid of His Children.

I am in the process of learning the Paleo Hebrew of the most ancient writings of YHWH (Yahweh). A study of the original otiot symbols which are what Yahweh wrote on the tablets He gave to Moses. This study is so important to Eastern thought, our Western mind set needs to change for a more accurate understanding of Elohim's Word. I'm pleased to present to those who read my posts, some new info, leading us away from pagan words to words which will bless our worthy Majesty on high.

What is a better translation for the word "faith"? It is "belief", take a few minutes to think how belief make more concrete sense.


Exodus 3:4 "And when Yahweh saw that he turned aside to see, Elohim called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
3:5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
3:6 Moreover he said, I am the Elohim of thy father, the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon Elohim.
3:7 And Yahweh said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows;
3:8 And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites.
3:9 Now therefore, behold, the cry of the children of Israel is come unto me: and I have also seen the oppression wherewith the Egyptians oppress them.
3:10 Come now therefore, and I will send thee unto Pharaoh, that thou mayest bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt.
3:11 And Moses said unto Elohim, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt?
3:12 And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve Elohim upon this mountain."

Now, my point is, Moses didn't do what Elohim commanded Moses to do out of faith, no no, Moses did what Elohim commanded because He believed Elohim with his whole heart.

Great topic, and yes, I fully agreed he believed YHVH with his whole heart.
But what did he believe?
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen

What was it that Moses had hope for? And what had he seen?

Have you considered Genesis 15:13-16 within its narrative?

Then the Lord said to him, “Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own and that they will be enslaved and mistreated there. 14 But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will come out15 You, however, will go to your ancestors in peace and be buried at a good old age. 16 In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.”

 

[Runner]

Runner in post 20 says that he thinks belief and faith are not the same.
Maybe because he's thinking of believe the way we use it and not what it means in the Greek?
Although I'm sure he knows the Greek believe too.
...
I don't believe Trust would be a good synonym.
Trust would, however, be included with both Faith and Belief.

Pistis was a common Greek word and would have been well-known and regularly used by the Greek-speaking people who read the New Testament. The early Christians would have readily perceived the meaning of pistis as “trust” or “confidence,” and that meaning can be easily confirmed by checking any good biblical lexicon or Bible dictionary. For example, pistis has been defined as:

• “With the predominant idea of trust (or confidence)” (Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament);
• “Firm persuasion, a conviction based upon hearing” (Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words).
• “Firm persuasion” (A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament by E.W. Bullinger).
• “State of believing on the basis of the reliability of the one trusted; trust, confidence” (A Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, W. Arndt and Wilber Gingrich, 2000; usually abbreviated “BDAG”).
• “It is the attitude of complete trust in Christ…” (The New Bible Dictionary).
• “In the New Testament, ‘faith’ is used in a number of ways, but primarily with the meaning ‘trust’ or ‘confidence’ in God” (Hollman Bible Dictionary).

These few examples could be multiplied many fold, but the point should be clear: the biblical meaning of pistis in phrases like “pistis in God” is “trust.”

Source: http://thesowermagazine.com/faith-is-trust/

Carry on, Bible scholars. As I've said on other posts, when one tries to force-fit reality into the Bible, as opposed to recognizing the Bible as a lens through which to view reality, one ends up living in Wonderland. In the real world, we all know what faith means. When we try to force-fit what we all already know into the Bible, we end up confused.

 

[GodsGrace]

Pistis was a common Greek word and would have been well-known and regularly used by the Greek-speaking people who read the New Testament. The early Christians would have readily perceived the meaning of pistis as “trust” or “confidence,” and that meaning can be easily confirmed by checking any good biblical lexicon or Bible dictionary. For example, pistis has been defined as:

• “With the predominant idea of trust (or confidence)” (Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament);
• “Firm persuasion, a conviction based upon hearing” (Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words).
• “Firm persuasion” (A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament by E.W. Bullinger).
• “State of believing on the basis of the reliability of the one trusted; trust, confidence” (A Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, W. Arndt and Wilber Gingrich, 2000; usually abbreviated “BDAG”).
• “It is the attitude of complete trust in Christ…” (The New Bible Dictionary).
• “In the New Testament, ‘faith’ is used in a number of ways, but primarily with the meaning ‘trust’ or ‘confidence’ in God” (Hollman Bible Dictionary).

These few examples could be multiplied many fold, but the point should be clear: the biblical meaning of pistis in phrases like “pistis in God” is “trust.”

Source: http://thesowermagazine.com/faith-is-trust/

Carry on, Bible scholars. As I've said on other posts, when one tries to force-fit reality into the Bible, as opposed to recognizing the Bible as a lens through which to view reality, one ends up living in Wonderland. In the real world, we all know what faith means. When we try to force-fit what we all already know into the Bible, we end up confused.

Hi Runner,
I'm no theologian, but all your bullets are inclusive of the word believe.
Are you saying I'm trying to force-fit something? I don't believe so.
See. This believe means THINK.

But check out your bullets:

o Believe means to trust.
o Believe means to be persuaded of.
o Believe means to have confidence in.
o Believe means to know one is trustworthy.
o Believe means to have confidence in.

This is how I understand the word Believe:
(from my own notes)

Believe means:

trust the person
learn from the person
obey the person
agree with the person
do what the person teaches
use them as an example
follow them in all ways

As far as I can understand Faith and Believe are the same
and Trust is a component of both.

I also understand your position although I don't find much difference in our thinking.

 

[Chopper]

Great topic, and yes, I fully agreed he believed YHVH with his whole heart.
But what did he believe?
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen

What was it that Moses had hope for? And what had he seen?

Have you considered Genesis 15:13-16 within its narrative?

Then the Lord said to him, “Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own and that they will be enslaved and mistreated there. 14 But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will come out15 You, however, will go to your ancestors in peace and be buried at a good old age. 16 In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.”

Hello old friend. I guess that Moses wanted to remain obedient to the commands of YHWH. Moses was the only human to get as close to YHWH than anyone else. At the end of his life, YHWH showed him Canaan land from the mountain top.

Abraham had a dream about the future of Israel.

 

[Runner]

Hi Runner,
I'm no theologian, but all your bullets are inclusive of the word believe.
Are you saying I'm trying to force-fit something? I don't believe so.
See. This believe means THINK.

But check out your bullets:

o Believe means to trust.
o Believe means to be persuaded of.
o Believe means to have confidence in.
o Believe means to know one is trustworthy.
o Believe means to have confidence in.

This is how I understand the word Believe:
(from my own notes)

Believe means:

trust the person
learn from the person
obey the person
agree with the person
do what the person teaches
use them as an example
follow them in all ways

As far as I can understand Faith and Believe are the same
and Trust is a component of both.

I also understand your position although I don't find much difference in our thinking.

Belief is a prerequisite to faith. You cannot have faith unless you believe. To say that would be nonsense: "I don't believe in God, but I do have faith in Him."

But mere belief is not faith. Belief + trust = faith. It is the trust that distinguishes faith from mere belief.

A more interesting (to me) question is, "How is my faith in God different from my faith that my trusty Ford will get me to New Jersey next week?"

I don't think it is fundamentally different. Trying to make it fundamentally different is how, IMHO, those who try to force-fit reality into the Bible work themselves into a state of confusion.

One potential stumbling block is the notion that "faith is a gift." My belief that my Ford will get me to New Jersey is obviously not a gift of the Ford Company, or my car, or anyone else. It's a faith based on my own reasoning. (I happened upon a scholarly but very readable discussion of this topic: Is Faith a Gift From God or a Human Exercise?, http://www.dts.edu/download/publica...Lopez-IsFaithAGiftfromGodoraHumanExercise.pdf, in which the author concludes, as I would, that faith is a human response to God's calling.)

God's gift is His revelation of Himself in nature and the person of Jesus. If the universe were just a random mess with no suggestion of having been designed, and Jesus had either never incarnated or had been an unconvincing wacko, then no one would have belief or faith. But the fact that God has revealed Himself provides a basis for belief, which is turn provides a basis for faith (trust).

 

[Chopper]

Hi Runner,
I'm no theologian, but all your bullets are inclusive of the word believe.
Are you saying I'm trying to force-fit something? I don't believe so.
See. This believe means THINK.

But check out your bullets:

o Believe means to trust.
o Believe means to be persuaded of.
o Believe means to have confidence in.
o Believe means to know one is trustworthy.
o Believe means to have confidence in.

This is how I understand the word Believe:
(from my own notes)

Believe means:

trust the person
learn from the person
obey the person
agree with the person
do what the person teaches
use them as an example
follow them in all ways

As far as I can understand Faith and Believe are the same
and Trust is a component of both.

I also understand your position although I don't find much difference in our thinking.

Good defense Wondering, of the word believe, as opposed to the word faith. The wonderland that runner speaks about is the modern so-called bibles. YHWH commands that we not add too or take away from His Word. All English translations are guilty of adding and subtracting from YHWH and His original Paleo Hebrew Word.

Revelation 22:18 "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, Elohim shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, Elohim shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

This is why I am studying Paleo Hebrew because it's the language that YHWH communicated to Moses when He wrote the 10 Commandments on stone tablets and gave them to Moses.

 

[stovebolts]

Hello old friend. I guess that Moses wanted to remain obedient to the commands of YHWH. Moses was the only human to get as close to YHWH than anyone else. At the end of his life, YHWH showed him Canaan land from the mountain top.

Abraham had a dream about the future of Israel.

Absolutely brother.

I suppose what I was trying g to say is this.
God made Abraham a promise, and Moses believed that promise. Not only did he believe the promise, but he had hoped for the promise.
Faith is hope in things unseen.... Moses knew he was a cog in the wheel toward Gods promise, and obediently participated towards its fullfilment.

 

[stovebolts]

If a person should go the the original Paleo Hebrew, which is the oldest Hebrew, you'll notice the absence of the word faith. What you will find, is the word belief, not faith.

And if my hunch is right, belief would be considered a verb....

 

[Runner]

Good defense Wondering, of the word believe, as opposed to the word faith.

Just so we're clear, what wondering is questioning is "trust" rather than "believe" as a more correct understanding of "faith."

This is why I am studying Paleo Hebrew because it's the language that YHWH communicated to Moses when He wrote the 10 Commandments on stone tablets and gave them to Moses.

Paleo-Hebrew did not exist at the time of Moses. At least according to scholars, it began to develop several hundred years after Moses. Proto-Canaanite (or Proto-Sinaitic) predated Paleo-Hebrew. Paleo-Hebrew is basically Biblical Hebrew (the language of most of the OT) with an older alphabet. The only known examples of OT passages in the Paleo-Hebrew alphabet are some fragments found among the Dead Sea Scrolls. Here is a short article about Paleo-Hebrew that is interesting because it includes photographs of fragments: http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/alphabet_middle.html.

I'm not just strutting my stuff here, because I've never concerned myself with the various forms of Hebrew at all and don't pretend to have any expertise whatsoever.

To suggest that "All English translations are guilty of adding and subtracting from YHWH and His original Paleo Hebrew Word" and thus are in violation of Revelation 22:18 is both inaccurate and pretty extreme. Virtually all of the NT was written in Koine Greek - so by this logic, all of the quotations from the OT found in the NT would be "guilty" of violating Revelation 22:18.

It's certainly worthwhile to try to understand the earliest manuscripts, but most quality translations like the NASB do this, and I at least don't think it's realistic to think I'm going to arrive at a more accurate understanding than the committees of scholars who work on those translations.

The wonderland that runner speaks about is the modern so-called bibles.

What I'm actually talking about are those who think reality must be interpreted according to the Bible rather than the Bible interpreted according to reality (or at least "informed by" reality). At least IMHO, the Bible cannot be read in a vacuum. I would know what faith was if I had never even heard of the Bible. Unless "faith" in the biblical context means something entirely different from "faith" in the secular context, which I don't believe it does, I don't need the Bible to understand faith. It may not be possible to have faith in God unless one has been preordained to do so (as the Calvinists believe) or has been given the grace to be able to have faith (as the Arminians believe), but it seems to me that what faith is remains basically the same in all contexts.

 

[Runner]

A final thought: One reason I think "belief" is an inadequate understanding of faith is that all Christians experience, from time to time or even all the time, some element of doubt. If one equates belief with faith, one can easily be led into the trap of worrying about whether he or she "really" believes and has faith when this element of doubt exists. Is my doubt too great for me to honestly say I believe? Have I ceased to believe? This problem does not arise when one understands faith as trust. The trust is the proof of the pudding, so to speak. The trust is the proof that you do believe, even though an element of doubt may exist.

I have always loosely defined faith as "Living as though what I believe were true, while acknowledging it may not be." This definition does not demand certainty of belief.

 

[stovebolts]

A final thought: One reason I think "belief" is an inadequate understanding of faith is that all Christians experience, from time to time or even all the time, some element of doubt. If one equates belief with faith, one can easily be led into the trap of worrying about whether he or she "really" believes and has faith when this element of doubt exists. Is my doubt too great for me to honestly say I believe? Have I ceased to believe? This problem does not arise when one understands faith as trust. The trust is the proof of the pudding, so to speak. The trust is the proof that you do believe, even though an element of doubt may exist.

I have always loosely defined faith as "Living as though what I believe were true, while acknowledging it may not be." This definition does not demand certainty of belief.

Why can't one believe doubt? Why can't one have faith in doubt?
Many people put their faith and belief in many things, including hope.
So from what I can tell, it's not semantics but rather it's the object in which we place our faith and belief.
To our brothers point, belief is active, just as our faith is.

 

[Hermit]

...The trust is the proof that you do believe, even though an element of doubt may exist.

I have always loosely defined faith as "Living as though what I believe were true, while acknowledging it may not be." This definition does not demand certainty of belief.

That is how I used to think about it too. Now I have an added an element to it, i.e., God's will.
Whatever is God's will (the outcome) will always to true.
This stance changes something in me.

1) My wants/needs are not the primary concern. They are requests only, much like a question, without knowing the answer. It is not like asking permission for 'my way' but asking what is 'Your way' in this matter.
2) Content with all things. Whatever the outcome, each one is a lesson to be learnt or refined. Much of my lessons has been to let go of my expectations so I can accept better God's will for me. I still got a long way to go in this matter.
3) Nothing is wasted. God has reason for everything, even if I cannot reason it. Introspection has a way of revealing who certain things have unfolded in a way that could not have been any other way. Like following a candy trail to find the outcome.
4) Doubt has less of a grip. Instead of my doubt pointing at God, it points back at me. It allows more emphasis that what I want, need, request, containing conditions as opposed to unreserved trust. Any doubt only points to my imperfections.They remind me to let go and let God.

So, the certainty of belief is that God is certain, not me. I can be certain that I am not certain (typical paradoxical relationship between God (perfection) and us (imperfection)). However, when we do let go to let God our doubt accepts Everything, our faith allows Everything, our belief becomes Everything.

We have to let go of everything for Everything.​

 

[Runner]

Why can't one believe doubt? Why can't one have faith in doubt?

That's my point: one can. But if you equate belief with faith, this can lead to needless worrying when you experience the inevitable doubt. If you are living in faith, the doubts become irrelevant. The trust you demonstrate through faith is the proof that your belief is sincere and sufficient.

 

[stovebolts]

That's my point: one can. But if you equate belief with faith, this can lead to needless worrying when you experience the inevitable doubt. If you are living in faith, the doubts become irrelevant. The trust you demonstrate through faith is the proof that your belief is sincere and sufficient.

I understand, and we could continue this type of philosophy for several more posts.

But really, I think this is more about semantics within the English language and I don't think that's the discussion our brother Chopper is trying to have.

In the ancient Hebrew, the world is looked at in terms of verbs. The way it was taught to me, was a door(noun) was thought of as verb, and would be called a swinger, because it swung.
It's still a door, but it was thought more in terms of its active function.

What I hear Chopper saying, was the belief of Moses was active because it came from his heart. He knew, where as we often rely on blind faith with a hope built on trust that whatever happens, Gods got our best interest in mind.

Take Abram. God told him to leave Ur, but didn't tell him where he was taking him. I would love to know what Sarah thought.... Hey honey, God told us to leave because he is taking us to a better land. Sarah replies, oh, that's great honey! Are we going to California? Abram replies, I'm not sure, he didn't give any details. He just said pack your things... ready?