What Is Baptism?

[GodsGrace]

What exactly is baptism?

Acts 2:38 tells us it's for the forgiveness of sins.
But we know that our faith in Jesus is our salvation and that God forgives sins.

There are 3 baptisms in the New Testament:

1. The baptism of the spirit --- which is conversion. (1 Corinthians 12:13)

2. Water baptism --- Is there a difference between John's baptism and water baptism Jesus spoke of in Mathew 28:19?

3. The baptism of fire --- Acts 1:8 and Acts 2:3-4. Are these two the same type of baptism?
If not, how is each one explained?

How can we explain the 3 different types of baptism?

And, Dirtfarmer said this.

As I understand, when Christ was crucified on the cross, the sin of the world was paid for by his blood( life is in the blood). It is the sin of unbelief that consigns and condemns a person to the lake of fire. Baptism for the remission of sin is a "kingdom" thing, not a "heir" thing. It was John that preached "baptism for repentance of sin". Paul, the apostle, preached that we are cleansed by the blood of Christ that was shed on the cross. Paul also preached the believer is dead with Christ in his crucifixion but made alive by the life of the risen savior. In the gospel of the kingdom there is nothing about the crucifixion, burial, or resurrection.

Of course there was nothing about the death, burial or resurrection of Jesus when He preached the Kingdom because it had not happened yet.

So does baptism go from being a "kingdom thing" to being an "heir thing"?
The difference?

So, we have:

1. What is baptism?
2. The three different types of baptism.
3. Baptism in the Kingdom vs. baptism of inheritance.

Take your pick.

 

[Nathan]

I think, personally, that you might be making it more confusing than it is.

Baptism has two meaning, and in those two meanings, it has two uses in the Bible.

Meanings;
1. To place into and then remove.
2. To place into and then leave.

Uses;
1. To place a person into water and then remove.
2. To place a person into the knowledge and understanding of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - and then leave.

One use is purely for physical and 'fleshly' reckoning. In other words, to have a human understanding of the other use. The other use is to bring about the transformation of the person as a whole.

When we mix up the two we get into 'works' salvation, and deep religious - but not spiritual - faith. I have no doubt in my mind that there are a great number of individuals who totally believe that because they were physically placed into water they have forgiveness of sins. Whats dangerous about this is we think we read this in the Bible, as if it was meant in this way. Which is then what they base their faith on, instead of Jesus the Christ Himself.

 

[OzSpen]

I think, personally, that you might be making it more confusing than it is.

Baptism has two meaning, and in those two meanings, it has two uses in the Bible.

Meanings;
1. To place into and then remove.
2. To place into and then leave.

Uses;
1. To place a person into water and then remove.
2. To place a person into the knowledge and understanding of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - and then leave.

One use is purely for physical and 'fleshly' reckoning. In other words, to have a human understanding of the other use. The other use is to bring about the transformation of the person as a whole.

When we mix up the two we get into 'works' salvation, and deep religious - but not spiritual - faith. I have no doubt in my mind that there are a great number of individuals who totally believe that because they were physically placed into water they have forgiveness of sins. Whats dangerous about this is we think we read this in the Bible, as if it was meant in this way. Which is then what they base their faith on, instead of Jesus the Christ Himself.

Nathan,

What you've stated here may be true. The only way I know is if you support your statements with Scripture. You have not done that. I'd appreciate it if you did so.

Thanks,
Oz

 

[Nathan]

Nathan,

What you've stated here may be true. The only way I know is if you support your statements with Scripture. You have not done that. I'd appreciate it if you did so.

Thanks,
Oz

Ok, fair enough.

The clear picture of two different meanings is seen in John

Jhn 1:33
I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.

The two different uses is found in Acts

Act 1:5
for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”


Act 19:1-7
And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland
And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John’s baptism.”
And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying.
There were about twelve men in all.

Paul clearly asked, "Into what then were you baptized?". Now, if they were speaking about water, wouldn't it make sense that the people answering would have said "water"? Seeing how they understood what Paul was asking, about what teaching they were 'immersed' in, they told him the teaching of John's - which was that of repentance.

But we know that repentance is just the first step in becoming a Christ follower, so Paul then "baptized" them - again by teaching - into the the name of the Lord Jesus, which is that of faith in the Savior. This is the most clear example of the two different meanings when you leave the verses in their context. Pulled out and you can make all kinds of different meanings.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think, personally, that you might be making it more confusing than it is.

Baptism has two meaning, and in those two meanings, it has two uses in the Bible.

Meanings;
1. To place into and then remove.
2. To place into and then leave.

Uses;
1. To place a person into water and then remove.
2. To place a person into the knowledge and understanding of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - and then leave.

One use is purely for physical and 'fleshly' reckoning. In other words, to have a human understanding of the other use. The other use is to bring about the transformation of the person as a whole.

When we mix up the two we get into 'works' salvation, and deep religious - but not spiritual - faith. I have no doubt in my mind that there are a great number of individuals who totally believe that because they were physically placed into water they have forgiveness of sins. Whats dangerous about this is we think we read this in the Bible, as if it was meant in this way. Which is then what they base their faith on, instead of Jesus the Christ Himself.

Hi Nathan,

I don't think it's so simple.
Or, let's say it could be simple or it could be more complicated if we really want to understand it.

For starters, what's the difference between John's baptism and Jesus' baptism?
One is of water, number 2. One is of fire, number 3 from the O.P. The difference?

You say this up above:
The other use is to bring about the transformation of the person as a whole.

Well then, why aren't we transformed? Has Christianity failed?

 

[twinc]

imho - Baptism is both the passport and password to heaven - we must have both to get in - most do not even really know that a passport has to be authenticated and not lost or surrendered and the password must be remembered which most have already forgotten but God in His infinite wisdom has ensured will be recalled and remembered when and if requested - to get some idea recall what happened when Jesus was identified at His baptism - it seems most have not heard or been told the parable about Bishop John when he died and found himself in a white marble courtroom - twinc

 

[Nathan]

Hi Nathan,

I don't think it's so simple.
Or, let's say it could be simple or it could be more complicated if we really want to understand it.

For starters, what's the difference between John's baptism and Jesus' baptism?
One is of water, number 2. One is of fire, number 3 from the O.P. The difference?

You say this up above:
The other use is to bring about the transformation of the person as a whole.

Well then, why aren't we transformed? Has Christianity failed?

Good question. John's baptism is that of repentance. Jesus' was that of faith. Technically, Jesus' was that of repentance and faith - but specifically, it was that of faith.

Both baptism's are signified with water, but are truly that which is representative of what takes place on the inside. In other words, just being baptized by John in the water was pointless, unless one was coming to do so based on their understanding(true baptism) of the need for repentance.

Mat 3:4-11
Now John wore a garment of camel’s hair and a leather belt around his waist, and his food was locusts and wild honey.
Then Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region about the Jordan were going out to him,
and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bear fruit in keeping with repentance.
And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. “I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

John stopped some of the Pharisees and Sadducess from physically being baptized in the water because he knew they were just doing it to be wet - they had no inward baptism of repentance.

Your last question is a sobering one. Christianity has not failed, the people claiming it has. How have they failed? They do not fully become one in Christ. They do not unite to Him. This is where we find the differences in the 'types' of baptism. One is just a 'dunk' - in and out. The other is when you actually leave a cucumber in a jar of vinegar, and it becomes a pickle - it is transformed from cucumber to pickle.

The transformation does not happen, in the life of a believer, unless he stays inside the 'jar' of faith, 'immersed' in the blood of Christ. When that true baptism takes place, then a believer is transformed.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Nathan, you made this statement above;
"2. To place a person into the knowledge and understanding of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - and then leave."

I would think with this knowledge, we would stay with God forever.
What do you mean when you say we leave?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Hi Nathan,

I don't think it's so simple.
Or, let's say it could be simple or it could be more complicated if we really want to understand it.

For starters, what's the difference between John's baptism and Jesus' baptism?
One is of water, number 2. One is of fire, number 3 from the O.P. The difference?

You say this up above:
The other use is to bring about the transformation of the person as a whole.

Well then, why aren't we transformed? Has Christianity failed?

I am transformed very much.
Did you see me before I got saved?
Some people did and then they got saved.
They wanted what I had.

 

[Nathan]

Nathan, you made this statement above;
"2. To place a person into the knowledge and understanding of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - and then leave."

I would think with this knowledge, we would stay with God forever.
What do you mean when you say we leave?

Ah, that doesn't sound like I meant it. At first I was thinking you misquoted me, but now I see that the thought was not complete.

What I mean is just like you would not dip a cucumber into a jar of vinegar and spices, then take it out and call it a pickle - you cannot take a believer and place them into a doctrine of the truth of Jesus, and then take them out, and consider them a Christian.

You must "leave" a cucumber in the jar of vinegar in order for it to become a pickle. So also you must "leave" a believer in the doctrine of Jesus for them to become a Christian.

I did not mean 'we' leave them, I meant we leave them in the doctrine and not try to take them from it and then place them into man made doctrine. They must remain in the doctrine of Christ alone.

 

[Nathan]

The whole of the matter is there are a lot of cucumbers walking around in the world thinking they are pickles because they were once 'dunked' in the baptism of Christ.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The whole of the matter is there are a lot of cucumbers walking around in the world thinking they are pickles because they were once 'dunked' in the baptism of Christ.

And in English, how do you judge the difference when you meet people?

 

[th1b.taylor]

And in English, how do you judge the difference when you meet people?

On meeting s person it is very difficult. With a little time we edo aqs Jesus instructed in Matthew 7. when using the instructions given there, drop the ever present Worldly Mistranmslation of the first verse of the paragraph a.k.a. the don't judge me verse, and read the context because the command to judge people is in those first six verses. We just need to remember that we will be judged at the Bema Seat of our LORD and to judge people the same way we want to be judged on that day.

 

[Nathan]

And in English, how do you judge the difference when you meet people?

Honestly, I cannot tell. I can only judge(estimate a probability) based on what I see and hear from them. If I see the fruit(outward sign) of a person being transformed then I can estimate that they are in the process of being transformed. If I see nothing that indicates a transformation, then I can estimate either they have not been in Christ long, or they just believed for a while and went back to their own devices.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

On meeting s person it is very difficult. With a little time we edo aqs Jesus instructed in Matthew 7. when using the instructions given there, drop the ever present Worldly Mistranmslation of the first verse of the paragraph a.k.a. the don't judge me verse, and read the context because the command to judge people is in those first six verses. We just need to remember that we will be judged at the Bema Seat of our LORD and to judge people the same way we want to be judged on that day.

Who's bema?
Never heard of it.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Honestly, I cannot tell. I can only judge(estimate a probability) based on what I see and hear from them. If I see the fruit(outward sign) of a person being transformed then I can estimate that they are in the process of being transformed. If I see nothing that indicates a transformation, then I can estimate either they have not been in Christ long, or they just believed for a while and went back to their own devices.

I go about things a little differently.
I try to accept people right where they are, no judgment on my part.
If I see something in their life that I can help, I will reach out to them.
I am at a certain point in my walk with Christ.
If I meet people who seem to be not as far along as I am, I try to help them catch up.
And when someone stuns me with what appears to be a great spiritual walk, I will seek after them to learn more.
But after years of judging, I just don't anymore.
There are already too many things that bring the church unity down.

 

[Nathan]

I go about things a little differently.
I try to accept people right where they are, no judgment on my part.
If I see something in their life that I can help, I will reach out to them.
I am at a certain point in my walk with Christ.
If I meet people who seem to be not as far along as I am, I try to help them catch up.
And when someone stuns me with what appears to be a great spiritual walk, I will seek after them to learn more.
But after years of judging, I just don't anymore.
There are already too many things that bring the church unity down.

I do the same thing, we are no different. I believe you have 'judged' me wrong in my words. (pun intended)

Judging is often seen only negatively, when in reality judging is also a positive thing. It all depends on how one judges.

Use your example; How do you know if the person you meet does not seem to be as far along as you, or if they stun you? That is a form of good judging. That's what we should do.

Don't think of judging only in a negative light. It is actually a 'neutral' thing, and only is negative or positive based on the person using it.

1Co 6:2-3
Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases?
Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life!

 

[Wrg1405]

Honestly, I cannot tell. I can only judge(estimate a probability) based on what I see and hear from them. If I see the fruit(outward sign) of a person being transformed then I can estimate that they are in the process of being transformed. If I see nothing that indicates a transformation, then I can estimate either they have not been in Christ long, or they just believed for a while and went back to their own devices.

I go about things a little differently.
I try to accept people right where they are, no judgment on my part.
If I see something in their life that I can help, I will reach out to them.
I am at a certain point in my walk with Christ.
If I meet people who seem to be not as far along as I am, I try to help them catch up.
And when someone stuns me with what appears to be a great spiritual walk, I will seek after them to learn more.
But after years of judging, I just don't anymore.
There are already too many things that bring the church unity down.

I am with you on this one.

The thing is we have a tenedency to judge by what we see or do not see and leave it at that.

We need to be careful when we do not see what we think we should see in a believer and write them off.

There could be many reasons why someone may not be walking as they should.

But the truth is most who are not walking as they should will put on a pretence that they are.
I would say mainly because they are ashamed to admit their struggles.

People will only be open and honest to those they trust, those that will not condemn them, look down on them but will come to trust those who just love them where they are at and walk with them.

There can be many reasons why we do not see fruit.

To me the first and critical one is the birthing process as such.

We must be reborn. When a person is reborn they are adopted into the family of God.
The problem is that when someone places their faith in Christ it's easy and not uncommon to leave them to their own devices as such. Now your adopted into the family of God.

So if we do that then problems can arise.

We need people to walk alongside new children in the family, discipleship that installs the basics of faith and what it means. Just get to know them, let them ask questions. Hopefully as this happens things may arise that will ring alarm bells that need to be addressed.

Now alarm bells may seem a bit weird but I'll just give a quick example.

My wife and I head up a ministry that is twofold. We head up a group that is for non Christians who want to know more about Christianity and we also head up a group that have just become Christians.

I have the privilege this Sunday of baptising someone who had questions. I have walked with for a while. He has big issues and opened up to me, and as a result he came to Christ. I talked to him about the basics of faith with one of them being baptised (FYI I don't believe baptism saves but I feel it's spiritual marker in ones life)

Over the last month I've seen this man grow, he is a totally different bloke, he swore like a trooper. Since he came to Christ I've not heard him swear once.

I am now walking alongside who is a new believer and has been baptised. This man smoked dope before he was baptised and still does. When this became apparent to me alarm bells rang. Now left to his own devices I reckon this guy will smoke dope for the rest of his life.

You see it became apparent he does this to blot out the horrific sexual abuse that he suffered at the hands of his step father in his formative years and it seems his mother had an inkling to what was going on yet turned a blind eye.
The guilt and shame he carries with him (Yes those abused carry the guilt and the shame, not the abusers)


Now as a genuine believer he can act like he is bearing fruit but inside he is a mess and carrying this great pain and burden. It could be the other way around in that he does stuff that we could judge his faith.

To him he is the sinner a dirty no good nothing.

To say be baptised for the remission of sins, to be forgiven is all ok and good.

What about this poor guy? How can he be forgiven as a sinner for a sin that has been committed against him?

Will this help him? Of course it won't.

What will help him? Only Jesus, the Jesus he was baptised into.

How will he come to a place to be open to talk about and know what to do?

Walking alongside people who want to walk with him warts and all. People who are like Jesus.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I do the same thing, we are no different. I believe you have 'judged' me wrong in my words. (pun intended)

Judging is often seen only negatively, when in reality judging is also a positive thing. It all depends on how one judges.

Use your example; How do you know if the person you meet does not seem to be as far along as you, or if they stun you? That is a form of good judging. That's what we should do.

Don't think of judging only in a negative light. It is actually a 'neutral' thing, and only is negative or positive based on the person using it.

1Co 6:2-3
Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases?
Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life!

What you say is true.
The problem being far too many people on this forum judge negatively, it makes one wonder if they stand alone sometimes.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am with you on this one.

The thing is we have a tenedency to judge by what we see or do not see and leave it at that.

We need to be careful when we do not see what we think we should see in a believer and write them off.

There could be many reasons why someone may not be walking as they should.

But the truth is most who are not walking as they should will put on a pretence that they are.
I would say mainly because they are ashamed to admit their struggles.

People will only be open and honest to those they trust, those that will not condemn them, look down on them but will come to trust those who just love them where they are at and walk with them.

There can be many reasons why we do not see fruit.

To me the first and critical one is the birthing process as such.

We must be reborn. When a person is reborn they are adopted into the family of God.
The problem is that when someone places their faith in Christ it's easy and not uncommon to leave them to their own devices as such. Now your adopted into the family of God.

So if we do that then problems can arise.

We need people to walk alongside new children in the family, discipleship that installs the basics of faith and what it means. Just get to know them, let them ask questions. Hopefully as this happens things may arise that will ring alarm bells that need to be addressed.

Now alarm bells may seem a bit weird but I'll just give a quick example.

My wife and I head up a ministry that is twofold. We head up a group that is for non Christians who want to know more about Christianity and we also head up a group that have just become Christians.

I have the privilege this Sunday of baptising someone who had questions. I have walked with for a while. He has big issues and opened up to me, and as a result he came to Christ. I talked to him about the basics of faith with one of them being baptised (FYI I don't believe baptism saves but I feel it's spiritual marker in ones life)

Over the last month I've seen this man grow, he is a totally different bloke, he swore like a trooper. Since he came to Christ I've not heard him swear once.

I am now walking alongside who is a new believer and has been baptised. This man smoked dope before he was baptised and still does. When this became apparent to me alarm bells rang. Now left to his own devices I reckon this guy will smoke dope for the rest of his life.

You see it became apparent he does this to blot out the horrific sexual abuse that he suffered at the hands of his step father in his formative years and it seems his mother had an inkling to what was going on yet turned a blind eye.
The guilt and shame he carries with him (Yes those abused carry the guilt and the shame, not the abusers)


Now as a genuine believer he can act like he is bearing fruit but inside he is a mess and carrying this great pain and burden. It could be the other way around in that he does stuff that we could judge his faith.

To him he is the sinner a dirty no good nothing.

To say be baptised for the remission of sins, to be forgiven is all ok and good.

What about this poor guy? How can he be forgiven as a sinner for a sin that has been committed against him?

Will this help him? Of course it won't.

What will help him? Only Jesus, the Jesus he was baptised into.

How will he come to a place to be open to talk about and know what to do?

Walking alongside people who want to walk with him warts and all. People who are like Jesus.

Wrg

You've explained perfectly the baptism in the spirit.
We are baptised into the spirit of christ so that His spirit is infused and joined to ours.