What Is Baptism?

[Nathan]

Based on what?
Where in the Gospels does anyone use the word "baptize" to mean anything other than immersion in water?

Mar 1:8
I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Jim Parker]

Mar 1:8
I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.

You just said "I actually have never tried to redefine water baptism as being washed in the word. I am stating that the passage in Matthew 28 speaks of baptism in this manner - not in water." (Your post # 497)
I asked you to provide a basis for THAT understanding from the Gospels.
Baptism in the Holy Spirit is NOT a basis for understanding Mat 28 as referring to baptism as being "washed in the word."

Whether you are aware of it or not, you are using another Red Herring redirection to another subject.

Please try to respond to the post as it was written.

If you care to try again, please demonstrate from the Gospels (because that's where we find Mat 28) any reference to baptism as about being "washed in the word."

iakov the fool

 

[Nathan]

You just said "I actually have never tried to redefine water baptism as being washed in the word. I am stating that the passage in Matthew 28 speaks of baptism in this manner - not in water." (Your post # 497)
I asked you to provide a basis for THAT understanding from the Gospels.
Baptism in the Holy Spirit is NOT a basis for understanding Mat 28 as referring to baptism as being "washed in the word."

Whether you are aware of it or not, you are using another Red Herring redirection to another subject.

Please try to respond to the post as it was written.

If you care to try again, please demonstrate from the Gospels (because that's where we find Mat 28) any reference to baptism is about being "washed in the word."

iakov the fool

You said;

Where in the Gospels does anyone use the word "baptize" to mean anything other than immersion in water?

I was responding to that question, above. I am really curious why you throw accusations around so carefree.

Now, I will respond to your other question. I will say that this is long. If you honestly do not care, save yourself the time of reading through it. If you want to know, then please read it carefully.

Mar 10:35-40
And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came up to him and said to him, “Teacher, we want you to do for us whatever we ask of you.” And he said to them, “What do you want me to do for you?” And they said to him, “Grant us to sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your glory.” Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?” And they said to him, “We are able.” And Jesus said to them, “The cup that I drink you will drink, and with the baptism with which I am baptized, you will be baptized, but to sit at my right hand or at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared.”

Jesus was not speaking of baptism in water was He?

Luk 12:49
I came to cast fire on the earth, and would that it were already kindled! I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how great is my distress until it is accomplished! Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division. For from now on in one house there will be five divided, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.

Again, Jesus was not speaking about water baptism - but a baptism that He desired to be accomplished.

Jhn 17
When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

“I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.

“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”

That's a long read, but its necessary to see it all in context. The 'baptism' that Christ was anxious for was for the "glory" that He had with the Father before the world existed. The 'oneness' of being united with God the Father. This was done through His obedience to the Father, through His consecration.

He did this so that in truth, the rest of us would be sanctified. In that truth, we who are sanctified by it become one with Christ and God. Complete and total immersion which produces oneness. He made known to them(and us through them) God's name, and still makes it known, so that the love of God surrounds us.

We have to understand that baptism is so much more than just dunking something into water. The word is used also to describe the change that putting something into another thing accomplishes. Christ in God, God in Christ. Us in Christ, Christ in us.

I think that Young's Literal Translation probably shows us the best way to understand just what Jesus was saying.

Matthew 28:18-20 (YLT)
And having come near, Jesus spake to them, saying, 'Given to me was all authority in heaven and on earth; having gone, then, disciple all the nations, (baptizing them -- to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all, whatever I did command you,) and lo, I am with you all the days -- till the full end of the age.'

The teaching that they were to do, that of which Christ had commanded, would not make much sense unless a person was to understand who God is - the totality of who God is - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

The writers of the NT simply used the word 'baptism' to describe the complete immersion of the disciple made, into the complete truth of who God is. There is more of an emphasis on what this means when you use the word "baptism" rather than teach. Baptism in the Godhead would produce the necessary change in a persons life to be able to then understand the teachings of Christ.

I know for me, I did not understand much of what Christ taught, via what I read in the NT, until I came to the understanding of who the Father is, who the Son is, and who the Holy Spirit is. Then, things started to become clear to me.

 

[Jim Parker]

You said;
I was responding to that question, above. I am really curious why you throw accusations around so carefree.

You did not respond to the subject under discussion.
You introduced a new subject.
It is an evasion from answering the question posed.
That is not an accusation. It is a statement describing exactly what you did.

Jesus was not speaking of baptism in water was He?

No he was not.
Neither was he referring to baptism as "washing in the word" your opinion for which I asked you to provide support from the Gospels.
This is another introduction of a different topic; another red herring.

That's a long read, but its necessary to see it all in context. The 'baptism' that Christ was anxious for was for the "glory" that He had with the Father before the world existed.

The " baptism" of which Jesus was referring in that passage was His crucifixion and death.

We have to understand that baptism is so much more than just dunking something into water.

You stated was "You just said "I actually have never tried to redefine water baptism as being washed in the word. I am stating that the passage in Matthew 28 speaks of baptism in this manner - not in water." (Your post # 497)"
That is the statement I have asked you to support from the Gospels.

The writers of the NT simply used the word 'baptism' to describe the complete immersion of the disciple made, into the complete truth of who God is.

There is absolutely no support for that view being Jesus' meaning at Mat 28, or anywhere else, for that matter.
And the issue under discussion is not what you imagine "the writers of the NT" meant in spite of a total lack of scriptural support or support from historical Christianity for that imaginary conclusion

The issue under discussion is what Jesus meant at Mat 28:18.
Once again, you have used a red herring logical fallacy to change the topic to something other than the topic under discussion.

Since you refuse to invariably respond to the challenge presented you without attempting to redirect the conversation to another similar subject, I conclude that you have no reasonable, logical, scriptural based response to offer and that there is no purpose served in asking you to do what you obviously are not willing or able to do.

I will trouble you no further.
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

iakov the fool

 

[Nathan]

You did not respond to the subject under discussion.
You introduced a new subject.
It is an evasion from answering the question posed.
That is not an accusation. It is a statement describing exactly what you did.

No he was not.
Neither was he referring to baptism as "washing in the word" your opinion for which I asked you to provide support from the Gospels.
This is another introduction of a different topic; another red herring.

The " baptism" of which Jesus was referring in that passage was His crucifixion and death.

You stated was "You just said "I actually have never tried to redefine water baptism as being washed in the word. I am stating that the passage in Matthew 28 speaks of baptism in this manner - not in water." (Your post # 497)"
That is the statement I have asked you to support from the Gospels.

There is absolutely no support for that view being Jesus' meaning at Mat 28, or anywhere else, for that matter.
And the issue under discussion is not what you imagine "the writers of the NT" meant in spite of a total lack of scriptural support or support from historical Christianity for that imaginary conclusion

The issue under discussion is what Jesus meant at Mat 28:18.
Once again, you have used a red herring logical fallacy to change the topic to something other than the topic under discussion.

Since you refuse to invariably respond to the challenge presented you without attempting to redirect the conversation to another similar subject, I conclude that you have no reasonable, logical, scriptural based response to offer and that there is no purpose served in asking you to do what you obviously are not willing or able to do.

I will trouble you no further.
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

iakov the fool

Actually, your accusing me of the very thing you are doing. Interesting.

You don't want me to say anything other than what you believe, so anything I say will always be a 'red herring' to you.

Baptism means to immerse. The passages I posted show this clearly. Jesus said to immerse in the name of the Father, and Son, and Holy Spirit. Do you think Jesus knew the difference between names and water? If Jesus was telling them to baptize, in water, why not just say that?

You want to take the traditions of man and discredit my posts based on your own interpretation. You can no more prove from any NT passage that Jesus meant water, than I can prove He meant the truth of the Godhead. If you can show where people baptized just as Jesus said, I am all ears.

The truth you are trying to hide from your accusations, is that my position actually is what is specifically stated. It's in black and white(unless you have red letter Bible), Jesus said to 'baptize' in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Hey, I got an idea. How about we just do what Jesus said and not try to think He meant something He didn't say?

 

[Jim Parker]

Actually, your accusing me of the very thing you are doing. Interesting.

I'm not interested in any further discussion with you since you refuse to stay on topic.

 

[Nathan]

I'm not interested in any further discussion with you since you refuse to stay on topic.

Baptism? Is that the topic?

 

[reba]

Based on what?
Where in the Gospels does anyone use the word "baptize" to mean anything other than immersion in water?

here are a few that were worth a repeat to the Author of the scriptures
Mat_3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Mat_20:22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.

Act_1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Act_11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

1Co_10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

 

[Nathan]

here are a few that were worth a repeat to the Author of the scriptures
Mat_3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Mat_20:22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.

Act_1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

It's very interesting to consider what Jesus was saying in Matthew 20(Mark 10) when He talks about baptism.

It's really a complete study in itself.

 

[Jim Parker]

here are a few that were worth a repeat to the Author of the scriptures
Mat_3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Mat_20:22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.

Act_1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Act_11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

1Co_10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

The context of that comment was:
"I actually have never tried to redefine water baptism as being washed in the word. I am stating that the passage in Matthew 28 speaks of baptism in this manner - not in water."
It is total nonsense to state that Jesus command to baptize the disciples of all nations in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy spirit really meant baptism as "washing in the word."
That is the context of my response.
Yes there are other meanings to the word "Baptism" in the Gospels.
Uses of the word Baptism in the Gospels was NOT the topic.
Twisting the scripture at Mat 28:18 to mean "washing in the word" was the topic.

Hope that clears things up.

 

[reba]

Based on what?
Where in the Gospels does anyone use the word "baptize" to mean anything other than immersion in water?

The context of that comment was:
"I actually have never tried to redefine water baptism as being washed in the word. I am stating that the passage in Matthew 28 speaks of baptism in this manner - not in water."
It is total nonsense to state that Jesus command to baptize the disciples of all nations in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy spirit really meant baptism as "washing in the word."
That is the context of my response.
Yes there are other meanings to the word "Baptism" in the Gospels.
Uses of the word Baptism in the Gospels was NOT the topic.
Twisting the scripture at Mat 28:18 to mean "washing in the word" was the topic.

Hope that clears things up.

here are a few that were worth a repeat to the Author of the scriptures
Mat_3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Mat_20:22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.

Act_1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Act_11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

1Co_10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

My post is a direct answer to a question you posted

 

[Jim Parker]

My post is a direct answer to a question you posted

And I had just attempted to put my words in context.
When taken out of context our response is 100% correct.
Taken out of context, your response is to a question I didn't actually ask.
Apparently my post did not clear anything up.
Oh well.......

 

[Nathan]

The context of that comment was:
"I actually have never tried to redefine water baptism as being washed in the word. I am stating that the passage in Matthew 28 speaks of baptism in this manner - not in water."
It is total nonsense to state that Jesus command to baptize the disciples of all nations in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy spirit really meant baptism as "washing in the word."
That is the context of my response.
Yes there are other meanings to the word "Baptism" in the Gospels.
Uses of the word Baptism in the Gospels was NOT the topic.
Twisting the scripture at Mat 28:18 to mean "washing in the word" was the topic.

Hope that clears things up.

And I had just attempted to put my words in context.
When taken out of context our response is 100% correct.
Taken out of context, your response is to a question I didn't actually ask.
Apparently my post did not clear anything up.
Oh well.......

The real problem here, and you may have missed this, is that I was not trying to say that the baptism Jesus speaks of in Matthew 28 "is exactly" washing in the word. In context, in the way I wrote it, which seems to have been lost in the posts, I was saying it is in the same 'manner'.

Manner being, in the same way. The word of God washes us in the truth of God. Analogy wise, it is the same manner that physical water washes physical dirt off us.

Jhn 17:17
Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.

Jesus prayed that we would be 'sanctified' in truth. Sanctified is to be purified, set apart, made holy.

I was not stating that this is the exact thing that Jesus was stating, that is why I used the word "manner". When disciples are baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit they are immersed in the truth of who God, Himself, is. It is God's number one desire for us to love Him. How can you love someone you do not really know? How can you understand what someone's desire is(commands of Christ) if you do not know who they are?

Jhn 5:39-44
You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. I do not receive glory from people. But I know that you do not have the love of God within you. I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him. How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?



This is what the baptism, Jesus speaks about in Matthew 28, is all about. When we are baptized in the 'names' of God, the individual distinctive characteristics of Him, then just like in the same manner His word sanctifies us - so too the truth of Him purifies our heart to 'wash' away the false things we believe about Him - creating a clean heart to understand His perfect love - and transforming us into His image.

Act 17:29-30
Being then God’s offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.

From the beginning mankind has always held a false view of who God is. It is why we have always sought to 'make' God fit our own idea of who He is, and why we never could walk according to His commands. But now, the time has come that we should know, that we can know, who He is, and to turn to Him. It is impossible to repent from something, to turn to something else, unless you know what you should turn away from, and turn to. This is the purpose of the baptism Jesus speaks about in Matthew 28.

 

[reba]

Based on what?
Where in the Gospels does anyone use the word "baptize" to mean anything other than immersion in water?

And I had just attempted to put my words in context.
When taken out of context our response is 100% correct.
Taken out of context, your response is to a question I didn't actually ask.
Apparently my post did not clear anything up.
Oh well.......

There is a real difference between clearing up and cover up.. the question was asked.. and answered a couple times. The answer apparently does not fit your agenda.

Mat_3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Mat_20:22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.

Act_1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Act_11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

1Co_10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

 

[Jim Parker]

There is a real difference between clearing up and cover up.. the question was asked.. and answered a couple times. The answer apparently does not fit your agenda.

NOw you accuse me of deceit.

Try reading the entire dialogue before you convict me of lying to you.

Thank you very much.

 

[Jim Parker]

It is impossible to repent from something, to turn to something else, unless you know what you should turn away from, and turn to. This is the purpose of the baptism Jesus speaks about in Matthew 28.

Mat 28:18 is talking about water baptism.
And, since you don't want to know, I won't argue with you.

 

[reba]

Here is your post that was clearly answered ...

Based on what?
Where in the Gospels does anyone use the word "baptize" to mean anything other than immersion in water?

in posts # 501 #503 and #508

.. the readers can decide if a question was asked ...

And I had just attempted to put my words in context.
When taken out of context our response is 100% correct.
Taken out of context, your response is to a question I didn't actually ask.
Apparently my post did not clear anything up.
Oh well.......

Maybe being a bit clearer in your questions might help ..

 

[Jim Parker]

Maybe being a bit clearer in your questions might help ..

sigh
"Based on what?
Where in the Gospels does anyone use the word "baptize" to mean anything other than immersion in water?"
That is with reference to Nathan's statement that the baptism commanded by Jesus at mat 28:18 was properly understood as "washing in the word" rather than the obvious meaning of baptism in water or to his statement that the "immersion" was in the names of the Father , Son and Holy Spirit.
Both of those notions are absurd with no scriptural backing whatsoever.

My whole point was that at mat 28:18 Jesus commanded baptism in WATER, not a "washing with the word" or "immersion in the names of the Trinity."

Nathan consistently replied with red herring statements redirecting the conversation to another topic.

I gave up on him. I won't try to have a discussion with someone who continually evades a direct answer.

 

[Nathan]

sigh
"Based on what?
Where in the Gospels does anyone use the word "baptize" to mean anything other than immersion in water?"
That is with reference to Nathan's statement that the baptism commanded by Jesus at mat 28:18 was properly understood as "washing in the word" rather than the obvious meaning of baptism in water or to his statement that the "immersion" was in the names of the Father , Son and Holy Spirit.
Both of those notions are absurd with no scriptural backing whatsoever.

My whole point was that at mat 28:18 Jesus commanded baptism in WATER, not a "washing with the word" or "immersion in the names of the Trinity."

Nathan consistently replied with red herring statements redirecting the conversation to another topic.

I gave up on him. I won't try to have a discussion with someone who continually evades a direct answer.

Well now, my ears were itching.

The fact that Jesus did not speak of water, but to specifically immerse in the trinity, is precisely the reason why we should heed His command. I figure if He said it this way, then there is a reason for it.

I don't have to defend myself, but I will. I was not evading a direct question. I was answering the question you posted in the way I read it.

What you call red herring, was my answer. If you don't like my answer, that's fine. But you were doing the exact thing you accused me of doing.

Jesus said to baptize(which means immerse) in the names of the trinity(paraphrased). There is no way to deny this. You believe it means water, I believe it means the names. You throw up that it has no backing yet I have shown you that the word baptism means immersion into several different things - other than water.

If baptism was always spoken of as in water, then my comments would be far fetched. It's not though, so a person has to prove(if they are going to discredit another) that it meant water. Yet we never find another passage where the trinity is spoken of in regards to a saying someone says as they water baptize another.

We do find that the 'names' of God are taught fully to others though. And we know that it is a must that someone believe in the name of Christ in order to be saved. How will they believe in something they don't know about?

John 3:17 (ESV) 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

John 3:18 (ESV) 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

John 17:26 (ESV)
I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them."

1 Corinthians 6:11 (ESV) 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

The name of God is so key to understanding who He is. Just a simple word search will show this for anyone who is seeking.

 

[reba]

sigh
"Based on what?
Where in the Gospels does anyone use the word "baptize" to mean anything other than immersion in water?"
That is with reference to Nathan's statement that the baptism commanded by Jesus at mat 28:18 was properly understood as "washing in the word" rather than the obvious meaning of baptism in water or to his statement that the "immersion" was in the names of the Father , Son and Holy Spirit.
Both of those notions are absurd with no scriptural backing whatsoever.

My whole point was that at mat 28:18 Jesus commanded baptism in WATER, not a "washing with the word" or "immersion in the names of the Trinity."

Nathan consistently replied with red herring statements redirecting the conversation to another topic.

I gave up on him. I won't try to have a discussion with someone who continually evades a direct answer.

jim said ...I won't try to have a discussion with someone who continually evades a direct answer.
Apparently you dont care for direct answers either .