Growth What is God's business?

[Malachi]

Hi Malachi,

Yes God is very precise & as you said can sum it all up for us. Now, I agree with most of what you wrote, however where does it say that Christ come with His saints (ie. second coming)?

Marilyn.

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 14,15). Just one of several passages.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Malachi,

Thank you for replying. Now I have read some of your comments on other topics & I see that you are a scholar. However you may not have studied this particular topic. Thus said, do you realise that these scriptures are `holy ones.` For us to believe they are saints or angels, then you would know we need to look at all the relevant scriptures on this topic.

`Thus the Lord my God will come & all the `quodos - holy ones` with Him.` (Zech. 14: 5)
`Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His `hagio - holy ones` (Jude 14)

Most Bible interpretation have `holy ones` or `holy angels,` however a couple of versions have written `saints` & this has caused some confusion. So do you know other scriptures on this topic to give more light?

Marilyn.

 

[Malachi]

For us to believe they are saints or angels, then you would know we need to look at all the relevant scriptures on this topic.

Marilyn,
While this is somewhat off topic, the Hebrew (chaciyd, qadowsh, qaddiysh, and qodesh) and Greek (hagios) words translated as "saint" or "saints" invariably applies to God's sanctified ones, human beings justified by grace.

There is only one verse in Scripture where the word "saint" is used for angel. That is in Dan 8:13:Then I heard one saint [angel] speaking, and another saint [angel] said unto that certain saint [angel] which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

In other words, every time we see the word "saint" in the New Testament it is a reference to one who has been saved by grace, a human being. Check Strong's Exhaustive Concordance (KJV). So there is really no need for confusion or for applying "saints" to "angels". Therefore in Jude we are reading about the saints coming with Christ. And to tie this into the OP, God is in the business of converting sinners into saints.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Malachi,

Thank you for your thoughts. However we do read that the Greek word `hagios,` meaning holy, sacred, is used in a variety of ways & not just for `saint,` as you said.

There is –

• a Holy city, (Rev. 11: 2)
• the holy Jerusalem, (Rev. 21: 2)
• the holy angels, (Rev. 14: 10)
• the holy commandment, (2 Peter 2: 21)
• a holy kiss, (1 Thess. 5: 260
• firstfruit be holy, (Rom. 11: 16) etc

Thus we can see the word holy, `hagios,` being used for a variety of purposes.

As to being related to the topic. Part of `God`s business,` is restoration as was said in the opening statement. God`s business, His plans, His purposes, definitely include where the different groups will be in eternity. Thus it is quite relevant, I believe, as to whether the Body of Christ comes back to earth or not.

So can you give other scriptures to support your view? Who does Jesus say comes back with Him?

Looking forward to your comments. Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

I have been thinking that this is getting into a `debate,` which is not for this forum. Thus I will put together a topic in the `end times` where this can be discussed.

Marilyn.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I have been thinking that this is getting into a `debate,` which is not for this forum. Thus I will put together a topic in the `end times` where this can be discussed.

Marilyn.

Marilyn, everyone debates everything in every forum.
That's why all the moderators have ulcers.

 

[Malachi]

Thank you for your thoughts. However we do read that the Greek word `hagios,` meaning holy, sacred, is used in a variety of ways & not just for `saint,` as you said.

This is departing even further from the issue. Let's stick with the issue of "saints" and whether or not they accompany Christ at His Second Coming.

Please go through every reference to "saint" in the Bible (KJB) and you will notice that there is just one verse which calls angels "saints" (or applies "holy ones" to angels if you prefer) as is clear from the context.

Every other use of the word "saint" in the KJB is a reference to God's sanctified (holy) ones (who are of necessity His justified ones -- sinners saved by grace). Therefore there is absolutely no reason to disbelieve Jude, who is quoting Enoch, who prophesied that a multitude of saints would come with Christ when He comes to judge the earth. And Christians will not only judge the world, but also angels. That too is in Scripture, whether it boggles the mind or not.

 

[Marilyn C]

Marilyn, everyone debates everything in every forum.
That's why all the moderators have ulcers.

Hi Rollo,
Can`t do that to them.

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Malachi,

You`ve asked relevant questions & I can see it will lead to quite a big topic. Thus I will start a thread in the end-times section. Hope you will still continue our discussion there.

Blessings, Marilyn.

 

[Malachi]

Hi Malachi,

You`ve asked relevant questions & I can see it will lead to quite a big topic. Thus I will start a thread in the end-times section. Hope you will still continue our discussion there.

Blessings, Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,
The first order of business is to examine every reference to "saint" in Scripture, and confirm that the saints do indeed come with Christ at His Second Coming. You have not responded to that as yet. All you need is Strong's Exhaustive Concordance. Christ's "business" is not only converting sinners to saints, but giving them serious responsibilities during and after the Millennium. That's why they accompany Him.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Sorry about that Northman. Forgive me.

God knows the end from the beginning is often a quote in the Pentecostal type denominations. Not limited to though. It's often a quote in the Word of Faith camps, not limited to. It's also a quote heard in Baptist and other groups split on Calvinism and Arminamism.

However, who quotes it, it's misquoting a scripture.

There are zero scriptures that say God knows the end from the beginning.

If the Lord declares a thing, that is it. It stands and comes to pass. That is just not knowing something. It's not a crystal ball moment. It's God speaking and that word going forth, causing what He spoke to be accomplished.

That would be election, Calvinism. Not God gazing into a crystal ball and just knowing something.

Sorry for the confusing Brother. Even I don't know all the doctrines running around out there, and I know many.


Blessings.

Of course God knows the beginning and the end, he is the beginning and the end. Revelation 22;13.
How can one be without knowing, unless you are ready to put limitations on God?

 

[Jim Parker]

What is God's business?

Jewish delicatessen?

 

[Brother Mike]

Of course God knows the beginning and the end, he is the beginning and the end. Revelation 22;13.
How can one be without knowing, unless you are ready to put limitations on God?

There are two doctrines. election V.S Foreknowledge. Both are wrong. You don't think of things as God being limited. We think of things as God said in His Word, which God is not limited at all.

We have a God that can respond in Nano seconds, and has wisdom to solve any issue at a given moment. God then does not need election or foreknowledge. If anything, it's election, because what God has spoken, does not return void, it happens and will come to pass, His console will stand regardless. Peter said despite his experience, we have a more sure Word of Prophecy. So anything a man is told of God, is very dependant on doing what God said. The Word I can trust, despite what I might mess up following what God said for me.

Eli for example was Told by God his Family would be of the royal priest forever. Eli changed that, God did not. God's knowledge was what He planed for Eli. God is not having knowledge Eli is going to mess it up.

The foreknowledge Doctrine has some serious implications about Gods nature. God brings the children of Israel out of Egypt, knowing already they would all die. In other words, God lied about giving them the promise land, and God lied to them about what to expect. He knew already they were all going to die, and had the nerve to pretend He was mad at them for their unbelief, when He knew already.

We have to think of the implications of who God says He is, what He said in His Word and be careful of what man says about God.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

There are two doctrines. election V.S Foreknowledge. Both are wrong. You don't think of things as God being limited. We think of things as God said in His Word, which God is not limited at all.

We have a God that can respond in Nano seconds, and has wisdom to solve any issue at a given moment. God then does not need election or foreknowledge. If anything, it's election, because what God has spoken, does not return void, it happens and will come to pass, His console will stand regardless. Peter said despite his experience, we have a more sure Word of Prophecy. So anything a man is told of God, is very dependant on doing what God said. The Word I can trust, despite what I might mess up following what God said for me.

Eli for example was Told by God his Family would be of the royal priest forever. Eli changed that, God did not. God's knowledge was what He planed for Eli. God is not having knowledge Eli is going to mess it up.

The foreknowledge Doctrine has some serious implications about Gods nature. God brings the children of Israel out of Egypt, knowing already they would all die. In other words, God lied about giving them the promise land, and God lied to them about what to expect. He knew already they were all going to die, and had the nerve to pretend He was mad at them for their unbelief, when He knew already.

We have to think of the implications of who God says He is, what He said in His Word and be careful of what man says about God.

You make no sense, try again this time in simple Rollo understanding English.

 

[Eugene]

The foreknowledge Doctrine has some serious implications about Gods nature. God brings the children of Israel out of Egypt, knowing already they would all die. In other words, God lied about giving them the promise land, and God lied to them about what to expect. He knew already they were all going to die, and had the nerve to pretend He was mad at them for their unbelief, when He knew already.

Welcome back my dear Brother Mike, and off we go here. Your seemingly insinuation that God does not know what is coming makes me wonder why He would know prior to the fact that Jesus was going to die for sin, or am I reading this wrong?

Rev 13:8 . . . the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. My thinking on this point is how sad it was that Jesus was planning on dying for mankind when God didn't even know Adam would sin.

 

[Brother Mike]

Welcome back my dear Brother Mike, and off we go here. Your seemingly insinuation that God does not know what is coming makes me wonder why He would know prior to the fact that Jesus was going to die for sin, or am I reading this wrong?

Rev 13:8 . . . the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. My thinking on this point is how sad it was that Jesus was planning on dying for mankind when God didn't even know Adam would sin.

Hey Brother, funny you mention this scripture. The Wife and I had discussed this as someone on Facebook claimed that the Lord has blessed us and picked us before the World (Election) and gave the same scripture you did. The Idea is to transpose "From" to "Before" as that is how people read it according to preconceived knowledge. You said it correctly, some don't.

Mat_13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
Mat_25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Luk_11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
Heb_4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

So, scripture is very distinct when it says "BEFORE" and "From" From is a point of time after God formed the World. There is spiritual law of why things coming from the World is important, but that is another thing.

Joh_17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Eph_1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
1Pe_1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Before the World was even laid out, and the firmament stretched over us was done (Isa 40:22) The whole plan was to put everything in subjection to the Son of God. Jesus was foreordained (Greek for known before) the Earth was even made. There was nothing made, not a rock, a angel, a person that was not subject to be for and in the Lord Jesus. It was the whole plan from the Start.

So, despite Adams sin, the whole thing was to be in the Son of God from the very start. Satan was the switch as God said He found iniquity in Satan, In the Garden. So those not in the Lambs book of life will bow at the name of Jesus, slain from the foundation of the World, and all things consist in Him.

Because of Adams Transgression and the Work of the devil, God sent his son to destroy the works of the Devil. The plan never changed though before the World was made.

1Jn_3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Without Satan doing what He did, then it would have all been different.


Be blessed.

 

[Brother Mike]

You make no sense, try again this time in simple Rollo understanding English.

I am trying to make sense, but failing. There are two main doctrines in the body of Christ. Election and Foreknowledge. Election is more correct, because what God said, will come to pass. Foreknowledge is a offshoot and found in some Baptist groups and very prevalent in pentecostal groups.

 

[Eugene]

Without Satan doing what He did, then it would have all been different.

Are you supposing that God without Satan's sin would have had Adam living eternally as a creation instead of a son. You do realize that there was the Tree of Life available. And then of course Jesus, that very Tree of Life would not needed seek a bride to serve with Him for eternity?
In Genesis Chapter Twenty-four, God's (Abraham) plan of searching for a bride (Rebekah) for His Son Jesus (Isaac) from among His people (Act 15:14) was written as a result of lack of forethought; uh oh, I planned this one way, and now have to write all this other to explain what's going on. No brother, to me all these things come under the thought: 1 Cor10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
My thoughts.

 

[Brother Mike]

Are you supposing that God without Satan's sin would have had Adam living eternally as a creation instead of a son. You do realize that there was the Tree of Life available. And then of course Jesus, that very Tree of Life would not needed seek a bride to serve with Him for eternity?
In Genesis Chapter Twenty-four, God's (Abraham) plan of searching for a bride (Rebekah) for His Son Jesus (Isaac) from among His people (Act 15:14) was written as a result of lack of forethought; uh oh, I planned this one way, and now have to write all this other to explain what's going on. No brother, to me all these things come under the thought: 1 Cor10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
My thoughts.

These are all good questions my Brother. The fact is, the Tree of knowledge of calamity (Good and evil) was there. We can say what can go wrong will go wrong, and some point at some time, Adam is just going to grab some fruit off that tree.

We can say God framed Satan, wanting a legal reason to remove him. Satan would have eventually messed with Adam, right?

All we have is scripture though, and know for a fact if Adam would not have Eaten that Fruit, all things were the Son of God's, and man would have been with Him regardless. If man were so that He would obey God, no need for Jesus to die. Man started out immortal, and Adam had to never worry about any sickness. Just like it ends up anyway.

Nothing changed though, it's just reverse. Man now is away from God until they choose the Tree of Life. Before man was with God before they choose the tree that would cause Death.

God is pretty stable in how He does things. If Adam would have had many kids that obeyed God, never touched the tree, then we have line of men that where not cursed. It could be some went and grabbed the fruit, thinking they could be more God-like and end up in Hell. Jesus over all.

At this point we have an example still if only some ate the fruit, the rest would know it did not end well for them.

Foreknowledge:
I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
(Jer 17:10 KJV)

God is not using foreknowledge on anyone, no crystal ball. God knows all things about our heart, and a heart is made by God so it can change. God gives to each man according to their ways, not according to election, or foreknowledge. God is not a fortune teller.

Now if God treats any man different, then God lied here. Even Abraham, God saying, Now I know you will not withhold any good thing from me.

Election:
Every single person on the planet was made to serve God and be in the Lord Jesus. Nobody was made to be wasted and cast aside to die and burn in Hell. That means God has a path that is predestined with everything you experience if you find and follow that path. All for His purpose and will.

It was written about that Donkey Jesus would run into at Passover. God spoke that, it's set, it must come to pass. Jesus only did what He heard and saw his Father do, Jesus on the perfect path, doing the perfect will of God. Jesus runs smack into that Donkey, is not 100 miles away when the time comes, but right on course as spoken.

This is why God tells people like Eli, or even me things to come, but they don't come. There is a follow what God said in between to get to those things. Those things will always be there though if you stay on the path of Light.

I don't know how else to explain it, I suppose we can go into Probability Physics on the quantum level. Science can explain it, and many are not happy with the test results. Einstein called it the spooky theory He could not disprove, but tried.

The hardest thing for me is to be on Youtube and constantly see the video's of people claiming they don't even believe in God, or hate God. They want to know why if God knew what was going to happen, then why does not God do anything. Why is their Child dead, if God already knew it would happen, why allow them a child.
I have a far more easy time explaining by scripture how God operates, than I do with believers who already think they know.

Our doctrines are destroying people, yet as long as we are in church, who cares, right?

good to see you again in writing. God bless Brother.

Mike.

 

[Eugene]

The hardest thing for me is to be on Youtube and constantly see the video's of people claiming they don't even believe in God, or hate God. They want to know why if God knew what was going to happen, then why does not God do anything. Why is their Child dead, if God already knew it would happen, why allow them a child.

Dear Brother Mike, the problem with unsaved humanity is that they haven't tasted of the tree of good and evil (The LAW, the ministration of death). Someone cannot know the reason of anything until they discover their nakedness as Adam and Eve did (Gen 3:7). When those atheists blame God, they haven't discovered their own shame, and their need of Jesus as Savior. There is little desire of something they don't perceive as something to be wanted.