What is it to be 'born again'?

[gr8grace3]

How does your future resurrection agree with Col 2:12 "being buried with Him in baptism, in whom also you were raised through the faith of the working of God, raising Him from among the dead." ?

and with

Eph 2:4-6, "But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even we being dead in sins, He made us alive together with Christ (by grace you are being saved), and raised us up together and seated us together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,"

Yes Sir.

I would like to add.....

1.raised us up together ~~
suvegeirw 4891 aor act ind 3s ---verb *He raised together 2 ~~aorist tense says It is a completed action or attained, active voice says God did it on our behalf, Indicative mood says it is a dogmatic statement of fact.

2.seated us together~~
sugkaqizw 4776 aor act ind 3s ---verb *he seated together 4~~aorist tense says it is a completed action or attained, active voice says God did it on our behalf and indicative mood says it is a dogmatic statement of fact.

 

[Gregg]

Jesus was not begotten when He was raised from the dead.
He created the world.
He was begotten of God and declared to be God's Son before the world was created.
JLB

JLB - You have yet to explain Acts 13:33. How is it that Yeshua's resurrection fulfills "Today I have begotten you"?

"Day" in Ps 2:7 can also refer to a span of time or several days; and may refer to the entire period from Christ's conception by the Spirit through the event of His Resurrection in Ps 2:7.

The Word became flesh - "And answering, the angel said to her, 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you, and for this reason that Holy One being born of you will be called Son of God' " (Luk 1:35).

Beginning of Public ministry - "And behold! A voice out of the heaven saying, This is My Son, the Beloved, in whom I have found delight" (Mat 3:17).

Resurrection - "who was marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by resurrection of the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord;" (Rom 1:4).

- - -

That said, can you relate what you are saying to our being born again?

 

[JLB]

"Day" in Ps 2:7 can also refer to a span of time or several days; and may refer to the entire period from Christ's conception by the Spirit through the event of His Resurrection in Ps 2:7.

The Word became flesh - "And answering, the angel said to her, 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you, and for this reason that Holy One being born of you will be called Son of God' " (Luk 1:35).

Beginning of Public ministry - "And behold! A voice out of the heaven saying, This is My Son, the Beloved, in whom I have found delight" (Mat 3:17).

Resurrection - "who was marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by resurrection of the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord;" (Rom 1:4).

- - -

That said, can you relate what you are saying to our being born again?

He was the Only Begotten Son before He became flesh.

 

[Gregg]

He was the Only Begotten Son before He became flesh.

Was He the Only Begotten Son before He became flesh, or was He the Son [YHWH, Adonai] of God before He became flesh? I think the latter.

Please give your definition of 'begotten' as you think it relates to the Son of God before His Incarnation.

 

[JLB]

Was He the Only Begotten Son before He became flesh, or was He the Son [YHWH, Adonai] of God before He became flesh? I think the latter.

Please give your definition of 'begotten' as you think it relates to the Son of God before His Incarnation.

He is YHWH the Son.

He has the same name as the Father.

The name above all names.


JLB

 

[Gregg]

He is YHWH the Son.

He has the same name as the Father.

The name above all names.


JLB

I appreciate your recognition of His Name.

Would you mind stating your definition of 'begotten' as you think it relates to the Son of God before His Incarnation?

 

[eddif]

Jesus was not begotten when He was raised from the dead.

He created the world.

He was begotten of God and declared to be God's Son before the world was created.


JLB

I support what I understand you to be saying.

See if this supports what you are saying.

For this day of your death have I begotten you.

God the Father begot his son with the full knowledge that that son, Jesus, would die for the sins of the world.

eddif

 

[eddif]

The OT law and prophets can be put in the same pile of information with NT actions / scripture IMHO.
My favorite example is the muzzling of the ox and paying of the Bishop.
Out of the combined information comes a living understanding of the shadow and the reality.

Trying to separate / isolate old and new yields a veil and confusion. I do not even think I can always do this.
I spend a lot of time asking for understanding. Rightly dividing requires comparison.

John 3:16 is just one NT scripture that needs to be in this discussion.

eddif

 

[JLB]

I appreciate your recognition of His Name.

Would you mind stating your definition of 'begotten' as you think it relates to the Son of God before His Incarnation?

Born.

The Spirit gives birth to spirit.

First born over all creation.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Colossians 1:15-17


JLB

 

[eddif]

Born.

The Spirit gives birth to spirit.

First born over all creation.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Colossians 1:15-17


JLB

You are absolutely clear about the things that happened in eternity prior to creation (born spiritually).

Time did begin on the 4th day of creation. Hear now.

Galatians 4:4-5
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoptions of sons.

From eternity into the area of time, Jesus was born of a virgin. Spiritual Jesus came in the flesh that we might go into eternity cleansed of sin.

IMHO begotten is just physical human birth. Man sinned under the law and Jesus in the flesh fulfilled the penalty of the law.

We are first flesh then born again as a spirit. It appears Jesus was first born a spirit, then as a man. Jesus after resurrection had some spiritual changes and returned to the right hand of God.

In this life I see through welding goggles ( through a glass darkly). If I did not say it perfectly, try to see the overview.

eddif

 

[JLB]

You are absolutely clear about the things that happened in eternity prior to creation (born spiritually).

Time did begin on the 4th day of creation. Hear now.

Galatians 4:4-5
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoptions of sons.

From eternity into the area of time, Jesus was born of a virgin. Spiritual Jesus came in the flesh that we might go into eternity cleansed of sin.

IMHO begotten is just physical human birth. Man sinned under the law and Jesus in the flesh fulfilled the penalty of the law.

We are first flesh then born again as a spirit. It appears Jesus was first born a spirit, then as a man. Jesus after resurrection had some spiritual changes and returned to the right hand of God.

In this life I see through welding goggles ( through a glass darkly). If I did not say it perfectly, try to see the overview.

eddif

Amen Brother.

Let's continue our discussion.

I want to see what you have to say in this matter, and Greg too.

It is my belief that Jesus is the Only Begotten of the Father, before He became flesh.

I believe that He, the Son of God appeared to Abraham and many in the Old Testament, not God the Father.

1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. 2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly." 3 Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying: Genesis 17:1-3

and again -

1 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, "I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn." 4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am." 5 Then He said, "Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground." 6 Moreover He said, "I am the God of your father--the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6

I believe this was YHWH, Jesus before He became flesh.

The Son of God, before He became flesh.

I believe Abraham was in Covenant relationship with Jesus our Lord, before He became flesh.


"Look!" he answered, "I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God." Daniel 3:25

10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12;10


18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. John 1:18

I believe this to be a reference to God the Father.


JLB

 

[jocor]

How does your future resurrection agree with Col 2:12 "being buried with Him in baptism, in whom also you were raised through the faith of the working of God, raising Him from among the dead." ?

and with

Eph 2:4-6, "But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even we being dead in sins, He made us alive together with Christ (by grace you are being saved), and raised us up together and seated us together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,"

As I said in the beginning, at this point in time we are "raised" figuratively through faith, but what we will literally be raised (resurrected) when Messiah returns. No one can say that they have literally been raised from the dead before they even die a literal death.

In both verses the word συνηγειρεν (Strong's # G4891) is used meaning: From G4862 and G1453; to rouse (from death) in company with, that is, (figuratively) to revivify (spiritually) in resemblance to: - raise up together, rise with.

We are raised through faith now, but when Yeshua returns our faith will become reality as we are literally resurrected from the grave. The language Paul uses is based on the certainty that those things will happen to all who are in Messiah.

 

[jocor]

The resurrection is the fulfillment of God's promise to the fathers that He fulfilled for their children.

29 Now when they had fulfilled all that was written concerning Him, they took Him down from the tree and laid Him in a tomb. 30 But God raised Him from the dead. 31 He was seen for many days by those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are His witnesses to the people. 32 And we declare to you glad tidings--that promise which was made to the fathers. 33 God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.' 34 And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus: 'I will give you the sure mercies of David.'

What is written in the second psalm is a the fact that Jesus, not David was declared to be God's only begotten Son.


JLB

We have already established that Yeshua was God's Son before his resurrection. That is referring to his first birth. When he was born of a virgin, he was begotten the first time. When was he born a second time or "born again"? You, I think, say he did not need to be born again. Yet, Acts 13:33 says he was indeed begotten as a fulfillment of his resurrection from the dead. That is his second birth. That is what Psalm 2 is referring to as is confirmed by the Apostle Paul in Acts 13:33.

 

[jocor]

"Day" in Ps 2:7 can also refer to a span of time or several days; and may refer to the entire period from Christ's conception by the Spirit through the event of His Resurrection in Ps 2:7.

The Word became flesh - "And answering, the angel said to her, 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you, and for this reason that Holy One being born of you will be called Son of God' " (Luk 1:35).

Beginning of Public ministry - "And behold! A voice out of the heaven saying, This is My Son, the Beloved, in whom I have found delight" (Mat 3:17).

Resurrection - "who was marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by resurrection of the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord;" (Rom 1:4).

- - -

That said, can you relate what you are saying to our being born again?

The context of Acts 13:33 does not allow for your interpretation of "Day". It is specifically referring to his resurrection, not his entire life on earth.

Concerning being born again, we are born the first time when we come out of our earthly mother's womb. We are born again spiritually at our baptism and we are born again literally at our resurrection from the dead at Messiah's return.

 

[jocor]

He is YHWH the Son.

He has the same name as the Father.

The name above all names.


JLB

Not true. There is only one YHWH, the Father. This, however, is a topic for another thread.

 

[eddif]

Not true. There is only one YHWH, the Father. This, however, is a topic for another thread.

The title of this thread has a great title. It might attract both Jew and Gentile alike (that want to learn more of this new birth,

1. "ChristianForums.net desires to serve non-Christians, seeking answers to questions about Christianity, by sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ so they too may acquire the hope, joy, and peace that come from fellowship with the saving grace of our Lord, Jesus Christ."
   
   Hopefully these persons dropping by will not hear us squabbling, but hear us refining this born again experience. Male and female have children. Different theology Christians discussing the new birth set the scene for the new birth. If everyone was an eddif there would not be enough differing knowledge to build a Christian. It takes the whole body of Christ.
   
   God the Father exists
   God the Son exist
   God the Holy Spirit exists (Ruach hakodesh)
   These three are in agreement.
   
   Some people have trouble coming to agreement on all of the aspects of God on all the total package. I have no problem discussing all three as one, or discussing each separately. Is it complicated beyond my intellect? Sure. I need the mind of Christ to do it. Ezekiel 2:1-2
   
   eddif
   

 

[eddif]

Amen Brother.

Let's continue our discussion.

I want to see what you have to say in this matter, and Greg too.

It is my belief that Jesus is the Only Begotten of the Father, before He became flesh.

I believe that He, the Son of God appeared to Abraham and many in the Old Testament, not God the Father.

1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. 2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly." 3 Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying: Genesis 17:1-3

and again -

1 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, "I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn." 4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am." 5 Then He said, "Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground." 6 Moreover He said, "I am the God of your father--the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6

I believe this was YHWH, Jesus before He became flesh.

The Son of God, before He became flesh.

I believe Abraham was in Covenant relationship with Jesus our Lord, before He became flesh.


"Look!" he answered, "I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God." Daniel 3:25

10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12;10


18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. John 1:18

I believe this to be a reference to God the Father.


JLB

As time allows I would like / love to continue the conversation. Not only for just us, but for those who may never post (who are seeking answers).

This is going to be ongoing I hope.

"1st. believe that He, the Son of God appeared to Abraham and many in the Old Testament, not God the Father."

I bumped post too soon. I will finish later.

eddif

 

[eddif]

JLB
I am posting on a phone, one little finger graze and a mistake is made. It keeps the posts shorter though, and me on a full size keyboard is just too much at times.

1. "It is my belief that Jesus is the Only Begotten of the Father, before He became flesh.

I believe that He, the Son of God appeared to Abraham and many in the Old Testament, not God the Father."

Time (as we know it) does no justice to the way God thinks). God leaps from eternity to time, and into future eternity with ease. I have to wonder ; where is God as he makes this statement?

IMHO. IMHO.
God the Son did exist to be able to visit Abraham. I think he existed as a spiritual being. (He could appear as having a body etc. IMHO he did not have to be begotten to do this. This is the whole issue in part of our conversation. The Son and the Father and Ruach could gather at pre creation without being begotten, The begotten part of the Son's existence was for the later time (time as we know it) when he was born as a man under the law to fulfill the sacrifice needed to purchase our redemption.

After Jesus rose from the dead:
He could just appear
Move through solids
Float into heaven
Etc.

It is not the begotten man doing creation and being glorified, but the Son who visited Abraham.

A lot of people do not want to discuss Romans 7:25
Paul says his mind serves the law of God ( the spiritual new birth part of him )
But
His begotten flesh serves the law of sin ( I inserted begotten as this is what we are discussing right now )

The new birth does not dust off the flesh and make it perfect. The new birth puts a new spiritual man inside my mind and heart (the promise given first to Jewish persons, and then later to those sorry Gentiles). I am a sorry Gentile grafted into the promises (wretched man).

We are not just flesh (if we are born again).
We are now a eternal Spirit if we are born again.

We can talk more later

eddif

 

[Gregg]

Concerning being born again, we are born the first time when we come out of our earthly mother's womb. We are born again spiritually at our baptism and we are born again literally at our resurrection from the dead at Messiah's return.

What does it mean to you to be 'born again spiritually at our baptism'?

 

[Gregg]

Not true. There is only one YHWH, the Father. This, however, is a topic for another thread.

The New Testament interprets the LORD Jesus Christ also as YHWH. They share many names.

Please start a forum thread on that topic and I will gladly join you there.