Growth What Is True Faith?

[GodsGrace]

I often hear the terms
True Faith
and
True Believer.

I'm not sure what this means.
Is the word faith not sufficient?
Is the word believer not sufficient?

How would you explain TRUE faith and/or a TRUE believer?

This is posted in the Foundation of Faith Forum because I do not intend it to be a debate, but the poster's personal belief. Beliefs could be questioned for better understanding, but not debated. This is not a salvation issue...thus, no debate necessary.

Thanks.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

I think the terms are usually in refrence to an unsaid standard. But with the terms being applied by a diverse group of Christians, what that standard is seems to change a bit. Often I hear it with regard to being born again, and born again of the Spirit, or to otherwise have the Holy Spirit. Other times I hear it with the standard of dovotion, whether a person is Christian by their searching and longing for God, or because they were raised that way and comfortable in that lifestyle. Fairly judgmental in my opinion when I hear true believer in this context, but not nessassirly without merrit. Sometimes we see eachother's missteps in being faithful, and those times we might be able to help. I don't remember ever seeing someone use those observations in conjunction of the term true believer in a positive way.

In my opinion, true belief and true faith are from warnings of Jesus. Saying that not everyone who calls Jesus Lord is His disciple, but those who do the will of God, and again another warning is that people will be surprised by who is saved and who isn't. True believer in reference with being born again has the merrit that Jesusvsaid you must be born again of the Spirit. And in a sence to me acts as a warning of whether my salvation is true. So as a term of personal assessment more then a term to assess the salvation state in others. (But then again I've never been a good judge of others).

Last thought, but most recent figuring on the terms is to not be double minded. To be true and faithful without doubt, or without alterior intents.

 

[Nathan]

We have to distinguish them - preface them with truth - because there are many impostors who say they have faith and say they are believers.

The only way to tell them apart is which one is true, and which one is a lie. Just to 'say' something means nothing. So we have to describe them as such so we can know the difference between true and false.

True faith comes from God, and is based on the truth of God, and always points to God.

True believers come from God, they are based on the truth of God, and always point to God.

Yes, I know it seems like a repetition, but its the truth(pun intended). Its obvious that a true believer has to have faith, so it would be obvious that a true believer would posses the same qualities as true faith.

You would think this is all simple - but..........

 

[Eugene]

I often hear the terms
True Faith
and
True Believer.

I'm not sure what this means.
Is the word faith not sufficient?
Is the word believer not sufficient?

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Carl Sagan, the late and noted atheist and author, once said, “Faith is believing in something in the absence of evidence.” (I actually like this from an unbeliever, but as believers we know the power of God toward us.)
http://housetohouse.com/meaning-faith-substance-hope-evidence-hebrew-111/

 

[iLOVE]

Faith is to never forget all the benefits of Grace through Faith in Christ Jesus and Him Crucified. Psalm 103

Bless the Lord, O my soul, And forget not all His benefits: 3 Who forgives all your iniquities, Who heals all your diseases, Psalm 103:2-3

And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. James 5:15

The same faith that saved you, brings you the benefits of Christ and His Finished Work. Psalm 103

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I often hear the terms
True Faith
and
True Believer.

I'm not sure what this means.
Is the word faith not sufficient?
Is the word believer not sufficient?

How would you explain TRUE faith and/or a TRUE believer?

This is posted in the Foundation of Faith Forum because I do not intend it to be a debate, but the poster's personal belief. Beliefs could be questioned for better understanding, but not debated. This is not a salvation issue...thus, no debate necessary.

Thanks.

I think there are a lot of people who call themselves believers but are not true believers
I believe there must be a way of saying that for faith as well

 

[ezrider]

I often hear the terms
True Faith
and
True Believer.

I have used the words True Faith in my conversations with you, and as I stated in that other thread, if you started this topic in another thread, I would discuss it you, and so I will try to express my thoughts. Perhaps the word "True Faith" does not convey its depth nor understanding. Maybe the word "Saving Faith" would be more appropriate? I don't know, maybe we cam find the words together that come to express our faith.

I'm not sure what this means.
Is the word faith not sufficient?
Is the word believer not sufficient?

No, the simple word faith is not sufficient. Belief and faith can seemingly be used interchangeably, or maybe rather faith is build upon a certain belief. This being a Christian community, we should be able to recognize the faith we put in the words of the Bible. Some so much so that they believe the earth to be only 6000 years old in spite of scientific evidence that says otherwise. Their are many true believers that the earth is 6000 years old, and will debate it and defend their faith and belief in the words of a book. But is that a true, or rather, is that a "saving" faith?

Faith can be a very powerful and empowering thing. But to what end? Jesus said man hath no greater love than this, than to lay down his life for his friends. This passage gives faith to those who would go to war, willing to die serving their country. But is that faith any different than a Muslim terrorist might employ. Does the terrorist not employ the same faith when he straps a bomb to himself showing that he is willing to give his life? Is that the faith that we seek?

Maybe I should ask, is faith something you seek? Or is it something that you build out of a belief?

1 Corinthians 1:20-21
Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.


You ask is the word believer not sufficient? Well, if it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that already believe. Think about that for a moment. The preaching of the gospel was to save those who believe. So if the preaching of the gospel was to save those that believe, then can you say that all believers are saved?

 

[ezrider]

I am quoting your message from a different thread, but wanted to address them here.

Those who try to answer it speak to me about Love.
We could love persons as our fellow human beings, but I find it difficult to show that love to, say, someone who comes into my home at night in order to kill me and rob me. I would tend to shoot him first, if I could. I'm told this is not love and I should try to talk to them.

When I read the words of your comment, I get the sense that you view the act of love as just another work according to the law. To argue over whether you reserve the right to shoot the intruder is no more than an attempt to justify your action under the law. That is not walking by faith.

Why does the other side not feel love? Isn't love supposed to be two-sided?

No, love is not supposed to be two-sided. Are we not to give expecting nothing in return?

1 Corinthians 13:2-3
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

1 Corinthians 13:4-7
Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

I could love my enemy, but if he does not love me back, nothing will be accomplished.

Wrong, for this is how Christ is glorified in us. That is the accomplishment that we should be seeking: to glorify Christ.

Romans 12:17-21
Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

 

[ezrider]

True Faith: When I use the term true faith, it is meant to imply a unique kind of faith. I don't really know how to express it, other than to say it is a faith that is not dependent upon my own beliefs.

Habakkuk 2:1-4
I will stand upon my watch, and set me upon the tower,
and will watch to see what he will say unto me,
and what I shall answer when I am reproved.
And the Lord answered me, and said,
Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables,
that he may run that readeth it.
For the vision is yet for an appointed time,
but at the end it shall speak, and not lie:
though it tarry, wait for it;
because it will surely come, it will not tarry.
Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him:
but the just shall live by his faith.


Romans 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

So yes, faith is more than just a simple word. From faith........ To Faith. It is the TO FAITH that I am driven towards, not the faith that I have held thus far. It is a Faith we press on towards. Faith is not a belief, it is a journey with the hope of coming to the knowledge of the righteousness of God.

Our Lord God and Heavenly Father has asked us to place our Faith in His Son Jesus Christ, To walk in Faith according to His Grace so that we might come to know the Righteousness of the Lord. But the enemy does not want that. The enemy wants you to place your faith in the righteousness of the law, where you become trapped measuring your own self-righteousness according to its works. Maybe even trying to claim the righteousness of Christ for themselves.

The just shall live by FAITH. What does that mean? What is that Faith? From Paul's Epistles, I would say that it is a Faith that exist outside of the law for the express purpose of the Revelation of the Righteousness of the Lord.

From faith.... The law is our schoolmaster....... TO FAITH..... but when faith hath come.....

Galatians 3:23-25
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

I have used the words True Faith in my conversations with you, and as I stated in that other thread, if you started this topic in another thread, I would discuss it you, and so I will try to express my thoughts. Perhaps the word "True Faith" does not convey its depth nor understanding. Maybe the word "Saving Faith" would be more appropriate? I don't know, maybe we cam find the words together that come to express our faith.




No, the simple word faith is not sufficient. Belief and faith can seemingly be used interchangeably, or maybe rather faith is build upon a certain belief. This being a Christian community, we should be able to recognize the faith we put in the words of the Bible. Some so much so that they believe the earth to be only 6000 years old in spite of scientific evidence that says otherwise. Their are many true believers that the earth is 6000 years old, and will debate it and defend their faith and belief in the words of a book. But is that a true, or rather, is that a "saving" faith?

Faith can be a very powerful and empowering thing. But to what end? Jesus said man hath no greater love than this, than to lay down his life for his friends. This passage gives faith to those who would go to war, willing to die serving their country. But is that faith any different than a Muslim terrorist might employ. Does the terrorist not employ the same faith when he straps a bomb to himself showing that he is willing to give his life? Is that the faith that we seek?

Maybe I should ask, is faith something you seek? Or is it something that you build out of a belief?

1 Corinthians 1:20-21
Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.


You ask is the word believer not sufficient? Well, if it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that already believe. Think about that for a moment. The preaching of the gospel was to save those who believe. So if the preaching of the gospel was to save those that believe, then can you say that all believers are saved?

It looks like this is already an on going conversation you two are having. But if you'll let me, I have one thing to add concerning faith and belief. You are right they are used interchangably and some will try to differentiate the two terms. But in my opinion "faith" is interchangable with the word "trust." In any context I see, both religous context and everyday life context faith and trust can be used interchangeably.

In that sence if you have faith in someone you believe them. If you believe them you will act acordingly to what they say. The same wording can be applied with trust in place of faith. When our trust wavers, or we make excuses to not believe or to not act on that belief, then it shows by our actions that we really didn't trust something. Or at least not all the time.

With these things in mind I'd like to make an appeal to you. That we are not the ones who should judge the merrit of anyone else's faith. Jesus has given God the title of Father, and I think there is wisdom in this when considering children on earth. We all seem to struggle at different levels with trusting God verses going by the wisdom of the world. Very simularily like how children struggle with listening to their parents over their own reasoning or over their peers of the same age. Many can still say they believe their parents though they struggle with that belief.

These are just some thoughs of mine concerning true faith and true belief. They are not ours to distinguish. We might not believe a person. But if they say they are christian then they are in God's hands not ours.

On that note I agree with your post about love. Well said.

 

[ezrider]

It looks like this is already an on going conversation you two are having.

Actually, the seed was set in the other thread, but no conversation came from it. That is until she called my bluff

wondering confused me though. She asked for 25 words or less. In that I have thoroughly failed.

But if you'll let me, I have one thing to add concerning faith and belief.

As far as I am concerned, you are more than welcome to add your thoughts to anything that is said here. In fact I welcome it.

In that sence if you have faith in someone you believe them. If you believe them you will act acordingly to what they say. The same wording can be applied with trust in place of faith. When our trust wavers, or we make excuses to not believe or to not act on that belief, then it shows by our actions that we really didn't trust something. Or at least not all the time.

The faith you talk about here is not the Faith that I in my initial comments with wondering was referring to when I expressed the term True Faith. But as I pointed out in a previous post, we move from faith to a faith that is afterwards revealed. But your comment is important and it made me think about something that has been on my mind for some time. You expressed it when you said in the sense that if you have faith in someone you believe them.

When you look at the current spiritual climate that exists in the world at this time, as it relates to faith in that sense, do we not see that type of faith being destroyed. Our faith in our institutions are being destroyed; torn down before our very eyes. We are divided in more ways than just politically, but we no longer have faith in our government. We do not trust the President, or for some blind faith in him. We do not trust the police, the FBI. We are bombarded daily with what some claim is fake news, and we are bombarded with fake new. So we can't trust the news. We don't trust our education system, we don't trust each other. We have placed our faith in these things. We have placed our faith in idols. But when your faith in all these things has been destroyed, then what is the lasting faith you hope to hold?

 

[GodsGrace]

It looks like this is already an on going conversation you two are having. But if you'll let me, I have one thing to add concerning faith and belief. You are right they are used interchangably and some will try to differentiate the two terms. But in my opinion "faith" is interchangable with the word "trust." In any context I see, both religous context and everyday life context faith and trust can be used interchangeably.

In that sence if you have faith in someone you believe them. If you believe them you will act acordingly to what they say. The same wording can be applied with trust in place of faith. When our trust wavers, or we make excuses to not believe or to not act on that belief, then it shows by our actions that we really didn't trust something. Or at least not all the time.

With these things in mind I'd like to make an appeal to you. That we are not the ones who should judge the merrit of anyone else's faith. Jesus has given God the title of Father, and I think there is wisdom in this when considering children on earth. We all seem to struggle at different levels with trusting God verses going by the wisdom of the world. Very simularily like how children struggle with listening to their parents over their own reasoning or over their peers of the same age. Many can still say they believe their parents though they struggle with that belief.

These are just some thoughs of mine concerning true faith and true belief. They are not ours to distinguish. We might not believe a person. But if they say they are christian then they are in God's hands not ours.

On that note I agree with your post about love. Well said.

Hi NNS

I just want to say that I REALLY would like answers to my questions.
EZ and I just touched on it, but I don't know the difference between saying:

I'm a believer
I'm a a true believer

If I say I'm a believer, it means I believe.

Am reading through everything. Weekends are kind of busy,
but please post your thoughts...

AND ANYONE ELSE READING ALONG.

Thanks.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Actually, the seed was set in the other thread, but no conversation came from it. That is until she called my bluff

wondering confused me though. She asked for 25 words or less. In that I have thoroughly failed.




As far as I am concerned, you are more than welcome to add your thoughts to anything that is said here. In fact I welcome it.



The faith you talk about here is not the Faith that I in my initial comments with wondering was referring to when I expressed the term True Faith. But as I pointed out in a previous post, we move from faith to a faith that is afterwards revealed. But your comment is important and it made me think about something that has been on my mind for some time. You expressed it when you said in the sense that if you have faith in someone you believe them.

When you look at the current spiritual climate that exists in the world at this time, as it relates to faith in that sense, do we not see that type of faith being destroyed. Our faith in our institutions are being destroyed; torn down before our very eyes. We are divided in more ways than just politically, but we no longer have faith in our government. We do not trust the President, or for some blind faith in him. We do not trust the police, the FBI. We are bombarded daily with what some claim is fake news, and we are bombarded with fake new. So we can't trust the news. We don't trust our education system, we don't trust each other. We have placed our faith in these things. We have placed our faith in idols. But when your faith in all these things has been destroyed, then what is the lasting faith you hope to hold?

I think you have derailed this thread.
It seems you've turned it into your personal difficulties with wondering.
And if we want to continue to express our faith, where do we fit in?
How about you?
What is your foundation of faith?
How does your vendetta with wondering fit in?
You opened the door on this, my questions are now appropriate.

 

[GodsGrace]

Actually, the seed was set in the other thread, but no conversation came from it. That is until she called my bluff

wondering confused me though. She asked for 25 words or less. In that I have thoroughly failed.




As far as I am concerned, you are more than welcome to add your thoughts to anything that is said here. In fact I welcome it.



The faith you talk about here is not the Faith that I in my initial comments with wondering was referring to when I expressed the term True Faith. But as I pointed out in a previous post, we move from faith to a faith that is afterwards revealed. But your comment is important and it made me think about something that has been on my mind for some time. You expressed it when you said in the sense that if you have faith in someone you believe them.

When you look at the current spiritual climate that exists in the world at this time, as it relates to faith in that sense, do we not see that type of faith being destroyed. Our faith in our institutions are being destroyed; torn down before our very eyes. We are divided in more ways than just politically, but we no longer have faith in our government. We do not trust the President, or for some blind faith in him. We do not trust the police, the FBI. We are bombarded daily with what some claim is fake news, and we are bombarded with fake new. So we can't trust the news. We don't trust our education system, we don't trust each other. We have placed our faith in these things. We have placed our faith in idols. But when your faith in all these things has been destroyed, then what is the lasting faith you hope to hold?

Hi EZ,

My brother and I used to say "in 25 words or less", it just means not to carry on forever, NOT that it really has to be limited to 25 words!

Later...

 

[GodsGrace]

I think you have derailed this thread.
It seems you've turned it into your personal difficulties with wondering.
And if we want to continue to express our faith, where do we fit in?
How about you?
What is your foundation of faith?
How does your vendetta with wondering fit in?
You opened the door on this, my questions are now appropriate.

No derailment Allen.
No difficulties.
I'm just trying to understand language.

Your post was very insightful, BTW.
Thanks.

Later...

 

[GodsGrace]

It looks like this is already an on going conversation you two are having. But if you'll let me, I have one thing to add concerning faith and belief. You are right they are used interchangably and some will try to differentiate the two terms. But in my opinion "faith" is interchangable with the word "trust." In any context I see, both religous context and everyday life context faith and trust can be used interchangeably.

In that sence if you have faith in someone you believe them. If you believe them you will act acordingly to what they say. The same wording can be applied with trust in place of faith. When our trust wavers, or we make excuses to not believe or to not act on that belief, then it shows by our actions that we really didn't trust something. Or at least not all the time.

With these things in mind I'd like to make an appeal to you. That we are not the ones who should judge the merrit of anyone else's faith. Jesus has given God the title of Father, and I think there is wisdom in this when considering children on earth. We all seem to struggle at different levels with trusting God verses going by the wisdom of the world. Very simularily like how children struggle with listening to their parents over their own reasoning or over their peers of the same age. Many can still say they believe their parents though they struggle with that belief.

These are just some thoughs of mine concerning true faith and true belief. They are not ours to distinguish. We might not believe a person. But if they say they are christian then they are in God's hands not ours.

On that note I agree with your post about love. Well said.

NNS
Not much time now.... but
FAITH does imply trust.
But
BELIEF also implies trust.

Please keep posting.
Thanks.

 

[Nathan]

Ok, my turn for 25 words or less.

True faith - believing what God says, not based on anything we understand. If God does not speak it, then it is not true faith.


Now for the more than 25 word commentary.

It seems that where the mixup came in people started basing faith on what they thought God meant by what He said. You can see this very example in just the the way people view the very first chapter of Genesis - and continues on through the rest of the Scriptures.

A little leaven, just a speck, leavens the whole lump. I know I've used this example before, but a glass of pure water is no longer pure if you drop a tiny bit of poison in it - yet over the years this has been the case in the church.

It's done under the pretense that 99.99% of the rest is truth - so that little bit is 'ok'. This is why we must now use the word 'true' before the word faith or believer.

Of course, just like with the way it came to this point, so too now 'true faith' has come to mean whatever a person wants it.

In all honesty, it all boils down to the one using the word as to how you define it.

 

[JohnDB]

True faith vx false faith?

Faith is faith.
But what exactly are we putting our faith in would be the most appropriate question.

Natural consequences of actions is faith in a system that God created. We have faith that God did right and good in creating the system that He created.

Asking God to subvert his own good system for our personal benefit means that we think that we matter more over the rest of mankind and God's choices. So...
What exactly does "asking in faith" mean to most who use such an expression?

True faith, to me, means a form of trust and faith in the grand scheme of things that goes beyond my personal level.

And recently I have been reminded of how powerful and sure that the gospel message really is. 8 years is a long time. I seen nothing to indicate that it was effective...or that I was being effective in relaying the Gospel... until yesterday. Could've blown me over with a feather. (Good thing that I kept my head as I was working on hot stuff)

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

The faith you talk about here is not the Faith that I in my initial comments with wondering was referring to when I expressed the term True Faith. But as I pointed out in a previous post, we move from faith to a faith that is afterwards revealed. But your comment is important and it made me think about something that has been on my mind for some time. You expressed it when you said in the sense that if you have faith in someone you believe them.

When you look at the current spiritual climate that exists in the world at this time, as it relates to faith in that sense, do we not see that type of faith being destroyed. Our faith in our institutions are being destroyed; torn down before our very eyes. We are divided in more ways than just politically, but we no longer have faith in our government. We do not trust the President, or for some blind faith in him. We do not trust the police, the FBI. We are bombarded daily with what some claim is fake news, and we are bombarded with fake new. So we can't trust the news. We don't trust our education system, we don't trust each other. We have placed our faith in these things. We have placed our faith in idols. But when your faith in all these things has been destroyed, then what is the lasting faith you hope to hold?

It is a sad state to consider when we look at the things we once trusted as a nation fall apart, or when we see that trust fall. As for when our faith in these things is distroyed, I think your right considering the lasting faith that stands true.

In the conversation of finding the meaning behind the words, can you tell me if I've got this right, or am close to it? In your discriptions of true faith, I get three impressions from it. Unwavering faith, growing faith, and lasting faith.

Unwavering faith not dependent on our understanding, and not shying away when challenged. Growing faith that through time grows to be stronger in it's assurance (and hopefully in it's understanding too). And lasting faith as described as the faith that is found true and survives even while other things fall apart and are found untrust worthy.

Are these three discriptions a good explaination of what you mean by true faith. If they need correction or left something out please go ahead and correct it.

So far, if I'm right by what you mean by true faith, then I would still say faith and trust are interchangeable words. But in this case true faith is equal to a stable trust. Unwavering, grows and lasts. Not a fickle faith or a tempory trust. Again let me know if this seems right by what you mean.

One last thought to add to true faith is the verse that faith without deeds is dead. If our faith doesn't cause us to act on it, then it shows we didn't really trust it to begin with. Like how Isreal's grown dependance on other nations before Babylon conquered them showed that they didn't trust God to take care of their needs and to protect them. It was unfaithful in way of trusting God, but it was also unfaithful in an adulterous kind of way too. If you have faith you trust. If you are faithful you act on that trust. This leads down the road of grace verses the law. But before it goes that direction consider what I've said. They are points made with scripture in mind.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

NNS
Not much time now.... but
FAITH does imply trust.
But
BELIEF also implies trust.

Please keep posting.
Thanks.

Jesus taught about faith when He said to His desciples that if they had faith as a mustard seed they could move mountians. Jesus also taught on faith in a critism, saying to His audiance "why do you call me Lord, when you do not do as I say." And once more when Jesus walked on water, Peter in a wonderful act of faith said "If you are Jesus tell me to walk on the water to you." And for a bit Peter walked on the water until his faith wavered by the waves and the storm around him. Jesus replied where is your faith? (I think I'm getting these verses right).

I think I can see the point of using the term true faith, if it means to be unwavering faith, because so often our faith and our trust wavers and fails. But in my opinion faith is faith. It is either there or it isn't. We either trust God, or fail to trust Him. Too often our faith wavers even when we hope and lean on our belief in God. We encourage and strengthen eachother when we can and a person's own faith finds either doubt or gets distracted by the storms around us. But faith is faith each moment we are truely faithful in our faith. That's my figurings.