Growth What Is True Faith?

[Papa Zoom]

I often hear the terms
True Faith
and
True Believer.

I'm not sure what this means.
Is the word faith not sufficient?
Is the word believer not sufficient?

How would you explain TRUE faith and/or a TRUE believer?

This is posted in the Foundation of Faith Forum because I do not intend it to be a debate, but the poster's personal belief. Beliefs could be questioned for better understanding, but not debated. This is not a salvation issue...thus, no debate necessary.

Thanks.

Professing faith in Christ and actually having faith in Christ are two different things. The same with the word believer. One can profess to be a believer in Christ but not actually be one. I think that is the reason for the word "true" proceeding "faith" and "believer" - to distinguish between those two groups.

1 John 2:19
There were those that made a profession of faith but in the end, it wasn't "true" faith. It was just words.

OTOH, it does seem that it should be unnecessary to distinguish between faith and true faith. But over time I have learned that just saying one has faith or one is a believer is not enough (for some peeps). Objections arise over things like, "what if their faith isn't genuine?" My first thought is simple: "they didn't have faith then." Or "Well just claiming to be a believer doesn't make you one." My thoughts to that are: "Wow, thanks Mr. Obvious!" (although I've probably said that myself!)

So when I use the term "true believer" or "true faith" I mean that this is the genuine article and no objections can be allowed. We're at that point talking about genuine faith and not lip service faith.

you probably have questions now. ;)

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

True faith vx false faith?

Faith is faith.
But what exactly are we putting our faith in would be the most appropriate question.

Natural consequences of actions is faith in a system that God created. We have faith that God did right and good in creating the system that He created.

Asking God to subvert his own good system for our personal benefit means that we think that we matter more over the rest of mankind and God's choices. So...
What exactly does "asking in faith" mean to most who use such an expression?

True faith, to me, means a form of trust and faith in the grand scheme of things that goes beyond my personal level.

And recently I have been reminded of how powerful and sure that the gospel message really is. 8 years is a long time. I seen nothing to indicate that it was effective...or that I was being effective in relaying the Gospel... until yesterday. Could've blown me over with a feather. (Good thing that I kept my head as I was working on hot stuff)

I agree John, it's how you use the faith.
One person has faith in worldly concepts such as science, etc...
Another person has faith in Jesus for all things.
Only one is true faith if they should contradict each other.

 

[GodsGrace]

Professing faith in Christ and actually having faith in Christ are two different things. The same with the word believer. One can profess to be a believer in Christ but not actually be one. I think that is the reason for the word "true" proceeding "faith" and "believer" - to distinguish between those two groups.

1 John 2:19
There were those that made a profession of faith but in the end, it wasn't "true" faith. It was just words.

OTOH, it does seem that it should be unnecessary to distinguish between faith and true faith. But over time I have learned that just saying one has faith or one is a believer is not enough (for some peeps). Objections arise over things like, "what if their faith isn't genuine?" My first thought is simple: "they didn't have faith then." Or "Well just claiming to be a believer doesn't make you one." My thoughts to that are: "Wow, thanks Mr. Obvious!" (although I've probably said that myself!)

So when I use the term "true believer" or "true faith" I mean that this is the genuine article and no objections can be allowed. We're at that point talking about genuine faith and not lip service faith.

you probably have questions now. ;)

Mulling it over...
Truly mulling it over...

 

[ezrider]

I think you have derailed this thread.

How so? The topic of the OP is a discussion on faith. Perhaps you were reading something else?

It seems you've turned it into your personal difficulties with wondering.

My part in this conversation began in a different forum. I have acknowledged that in this thread. I have no personal difficulties with wondering. And if it did get too personal, I am confident she would let me know.

And if we want to continue to express our faith, where do we fit in?

I don't understand the intent of your question. Are you asking for my permission for you to express your faith? You tell me where you fit in. How should I know?

How about you?
What is your foundation of faith?

How about me? What is my foundation of faith? Well, I have multiple posts within this thread that discussed the topic of faith as well as how I see faith. If I believed that you were really interested, then I suspect you would have commented on any of those posts. But you didn't, to you it was an attempt to derail the thread.

How does your vendetta with wondering fit in?

Vendetta? That's a pretty strong accusation there. Where does that come from?

You opened the door on this, my questions are now appropriate.

Yes. I opened the door on this. This is all my fault. I used the words True Faith in a conversation with wondering in a thread over in the CE&P forum. She asked me to explain what I meant by true faith. I told her I would if she started the thread in a more appropriate forum. But the thing is I honestly did not believe she was really interested and I let her know so. She call my bluff, and here we are in the thread she created as I asked. So yes, I opened the door on this. I'm guilty. So I guess any questions on the topic of True Faith are now considered appropriate.

 

[ezrider]

In the conversation of finding the meaning behind the words, can you tell me if I've got this right, or am close to it? In your discriptions of true faith, I get three impressions from it. Unwavering faith, growing faith, and lasting faith.

Unwavering faith not dependent on our understanding, and not shying away when challenged. Growing faith that through time grows to be stronger in it's assurance (and hopefully in it's understanding too). And lasting faith as described as the faith that is found true and survives even while other things fall apart and are found untrust worthy.

Are these three discriptions a good explaination of what you mean by true faith. If they need correction or left something out please go ahead and correct it.

So far, if I'm right by what you mean by true faith, then I would still say faith and trust are interchangeable words. But in this case true faith is equal to a stable trust. Unwavering, grows and lasts. Not a fickle faith or a tempory trust. Again let me know if this seems right by what you mean.

If those are the impressions that you have gotten from my description, then I could not say they need any correction. Have you left something out? Only you will know when you find that other question. But in all honesty, I can not disagree with what you have said. You have presented your impressions back to me in a way I really haven't even considered before. I have really had to give pause and think about what you have said. I think you have done very well with your explanation, but some of my thoughts go somewhat deeper than this.

When you said unwavering faith not dependent upon our understanding. I would tell you my faith is no longer dependent on my own understanding of the scriptures, but I don't know if I could claim the "unwavering" part. You are right, but I find it to be a little more complicated. My unwavering faith exists solely upon Christ, but the faith I placed upon my own understand wavers all the time. You might say I have found my one true unwavering faith in the midst of waves of doubt. But those wave of doubt come from the faith I hold in my own understanding, but when I look to that one true faith, then the waves don't look so bad.

To find that one true faith, we must be willing to question our own deeply held beliefs and traditions rather than effort that it takes to defend them.


The Voice of him crying in the Wilderness, prepare ye the way of the Lord....
And the voice said Cry, and he said what shall I cry?
All flesh is grass and all the goodness thereof as the flowers of the field.
The grass withers, and the flower fades: because the Spirit of the Lord blows upon it.
Surely this people is grass.
The grass withers, and the flower fades: but the Word of God shall stand forever.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

If those are the impressions that you have gotten from my description, then I could not say they need any correction. Have you left something out? Only you will know when you find that other question. But in all honesty, I can not disagree with what you have said. You have presented your impressions back to me in a way I really haven't even considered before. I have really had to give pause and think about what you have said. I think you have done very well with your explanation, but some of my thoughts go somewhat deeper than this.

When you said unwavering faith not dependent upon our understanding. I would tell you my faith is no longer dependent on my own understanding of the scriptures, but I don't know if I could claim the "unwavering" part. You are right, but I find it to be a little more complicated. My unwavering faith exists solely upon Christ, but the faith I placed upon my own understand wavers all the time. You might say I have found my one true unwavering faith in the midst of waves of doubt. But those wave of doubt come from the faith I hold in my own understanding, but when I look to that one true faith, then the waves don't look so bad.

To find that one true faith, we must be willing to question our own deeply held beliefs and traditions rather than effort that it takes to defend them.


The Voice of him crying in the Wilderness, prepare ye the way of the Lord....
And the voice said Cry, and he said what shall I cry?
All flesh is grass and all the goodness thereof as the flowers of the field.
The grass withers, and the flower fades: because the Spirit of the Lord blows upon it.
Surely this people is grass.
The grass withers, and the flower fades: but the Word of God shall stand forever.

Ok. Let's get past the heart of it for a moment. I'm glad my round about thoughts were close. But here's the ticket. In however you see true faith, do you think you have it? True faith I mean.

In too many ways all I can say I have is hope. I have a bit of faith, and hope God will provide the rest, but faith verses true faith, I can't say I have it. Being a believer verses being a true believer, I can't say much in that area either. Thought I can say I try, God knows my efforts and if He is honest, He should see them as lacking. If being a true Christian verses an imposter or misguided "Christian," what can I say there. Much of the same.

I lack more then what is nessassary to be true in any explaination. So I have to have and hold onto hope and find a firm foundation to hold me to God. Jesus said He is the way. He said the path is narrow, and many people look to the faults of how most people won't make it. He said you must be born again of the spirit, and I think He said you must have the Holy Spirit. But he also said believe in me and you are saved right? Should be easy. He also critized His disciples that traveled with Him (not just the Twelve chosen) saying why do you call me Lord if you will not obey. So belief is not so wishy washy to say I believe, but then do nothing more. So all I can say is "I try."

In too many ways I've finally come to a conclusion that I must try, and hold onto hope but at least at this time that's all I can do. I don't think I'm alone. If God holds onto me and Jesus won't let go, then He will do so for too many others as well. Only He knows for sure who is His though. We can only examine ourselves and come away confidant, come away with hope, or come away knowingly aware of their faults.

I'm giving you this explaination because it's only fair if I answer my own question. But if you could, can you answer it too? Do you think you have true faith? Or saving faith since that was also a term you provided.

Thank you for your reply. It was kind and encouraging.

 

[Kidron]

-
True Faith would be the real trust in Christ that God accepts to save you.
A True Believer, would be the person who understood that Jesus is not some truth, or a truth, but is in fact THE Truth, and believes this to be True.
Once this occurs in a person's heart, then God steps in with the Blood Atonement and you are born again into His Eternal family.
From that position, and now as a "Joint Heir" with Christ, and a disciple of Christ (based on becoming a "Son of God"), you are to behave in a way, regarding your lifestyle, that pleases God, and this would include every moment of your time without exception.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

-
True Faith would be the real trust in Christ that God accepts to save you.
A True Believer, would be the person who understood that Jesus is not some truth, or a truth, but is in fact THE Truth, and believes this to be True.
Once this occurs in a person's heart, then God steps in with the Blood Atonement and you are born again into His Eternal family.
From that position, and now as a "Joint Heir" with Christ, and a disciple of Christ (based on becoming a "Son of God"), you are to behave in a way, regarding your lifestyle, that pleases God, and this would include every moment of your time without exception.

This sounds like a kind of understanding, like knowledge or wisdom. But goes with the kind of logic that once you understand correctly then you will be saved. Is that about right? Once you understand Jesus is the truth, then you are saved.

(I'm not trying to argue. Just clarifying. Jesus said He is the only way to the Father. Which I agree with. I just want yo clarify if this is what your saying by true faith.)

 

[ezrider]

Ok. Let's get past the heart of it for a moment. I'm glad my round about thoughts were close. But here's the ticket. In however you see true faith, do you think you have it? True faith I mean.

In too many ways all I can say I have is hope. I have a bit of faith, and hope God will provide the rest, but faith verses true faith, I can't say I have it. Being a believer verses being a true believer, I can't say much in that area either. Thought I can say I try, God knows my efforts and if He is honest, He should see them as lacking. If being a true Christian verses an imposter or misguided "Christian," what can I say there. Much of the same.

I lack more then what is nessassary to be true in any explaination. So I have to have and hold onto hope and find a firm foundation to hold me to God. Jesus said He is the way. He said the path is narrow, and many people look to the faults of how most people won't make it. He said you must be born again of the spirit, and I think He said you must have the Holy Spirit. But he also said believe in me and you are saved right? Should be easy. He also critized His disciples that traveled with Him (not just the Twelve chosen) saying why do you call me Lord if you will not obey. So belief is not so wishy washy to say I believe, but then do nothing more. So all I can say is "I try."

In too many ways I've finally come to a conclusion that I must try, and hold onto hope but at least at this time that's all I can do. I don't think I'm alone. If God holds onto me and Jesus won't let go, then He will do so for too many others as well. Only He knows for sure who is His though. We can only examine ourselves and come away confidant, come away with hope, or come away knowingly aware of their faults.

I'm giving you this explaination because it's only fair if I answer my own question. But if you could, can you answer it too? Do you think you have true faith? Or saving faith since that was also a term you provided.

Thank you for your reply. It was kind and encouraging.

Thank you for your honesty, and I sympathize when you say in to many ways all you can say is you have hope. But you asked if I think I have true faith. Should I give you the short answer, and just say yes? There so is more to it than just saying yes. True Faith is a gift from the Lord. It is not found in the Bible. It is the Faith of Christ that is given to us, but it is given to us in measure. Do I think I have the full measure? I would say absolutely not.

True Faith is walking in the progressive revelation of the knowledge of the Spirit of Christ as we are formed in His image. Remember Faith begins with the smallest of seeds, but grows into a great tree. True Faith is walking in the Kingdom of Heaven. Like I said in an earlier post, Faith is a journey, it is a walk with the Spirit of the Lord. As Paul said, now we see through a glass darkly, but then face to face. I may now only see through the glass darkly, but I am looking through the glass.

Do I have True Faith? Maybe its not for me to say. Maybe I'm just full of crap. What do I know? What do you to think? You have summarized my earlier posts and presented my faith back to me in a way I had not considered. If you were to go to my profile page and search through the threads I have created, what would you find? The majority of my threads focus on Christ. They are the expression of my faith in the revelation of Christ.


http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...the-spirit-of-truth.57101/page-2#post-1028379http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...the-spirit-of-truth.57101/page-2#post-1028379

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Thank you for your honesty, and I sympathize when you say in to many ways all you can say is you have hope. But you asked if I think I have true faith. Should I give you the short answer, and just say yes? There so is more to it than just saying yes. True Faith is a gift from the Lord. It is not found in the Bible. It is the Faith of Christ that is given to us, but it is given to us in measure. Do I think I have the full measure? I would say absolutely not.

True Faith is walking in the progressive revelation of the knowledge of the Spirit of Christ as we are formed in His image. Remember Faith begins with the smallest of seeds, but grows into a great tree. True Faith is walking in the Kingdom of Heaven. Like I said in an earlier post, Faith is a journey, it is a walk with the Spirit of the Lord. As Paul said, now we see through a glass darkly, but then face to face. I may now only see through the glass darkly, but I am looking through the glass.

Do I have True Faith? Maybe its not for me to say. Maybe I'm just full of crap. What do I know? What do you to think? You have summarized my earlier posts and presented my faith back to me in a way I had not considered. If you were to go to my profile page and search through the threads I have created, what would you find? The majority of my threads focus on Christ. They are the expression of my faith in the revelation of Christ.


http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...the-spirit-of-truth.57101/page-2#post-1028379

I like that, faith being a journey. I think that's right. Though I don't think I have any right or authority to say one person has faith and another doesn't (I think that's God's territory) I'll try to look over some of what you wrote. I doubt I'll tell you anything new, or anything of the like, but hopefullybI'll learn something more. Thank you for the invite to do so.

 

[brother Paul]

True faith is to believe God, not just believe in God, for the devils also believe in the one God and tremble....

 

[LovethroughDove]

How would you explain TRUE faith and/or a TRUE believer?

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Being sure comes from the certainty of something. I know for certain I need oxygen to breathe. That is how sure I am of God and what he laid out in his plans for humanity. (Faith and Belief intertwined)

 

[dirtfarmer]

I often hear the terms
True Faith
and
True Believer.

I'm not sure what this means.
Is the word faith not sufficient?
Is the word believer not sufficient?

How would you explain TRUE faith and/or a TRUE believer?

This is posted in the Foundation of Faith Forum because I do not intend it to be a debate, but the poster's personal belief. Beliefs could be questioned for better understanding, but not debated. This is not a salvation issue...thus, no debate necessary.

Thanks.

hello wondering, dirtfarmer here

Bear with my babbling for just a moment as I explain how I see faith. When we believed, were saved, we accepted a salvation that it's realization was future or al least part of it. It could be enjoyed in the hope that we felt.
Hope is the expectation that what is future can be enjoyed now.
Faith is built on hope and both faith and hope are internal beliefs and also eternal.
When you hope for something, that is something that you will receive in the future, not something that you possess now. Faith is the substance, evidence, of that for which you hope and is the proof that you possess it now, even thought it is future. Salvation is a 3 part process. We have already received 2 out of the 3.
1. We have already received salvation from the penalty of sin.
2. We have already received salvation from the power of sin.
3. That which we "hope for" is salvation from the presence of sin.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi Everyone who participated...

The original question was:

Is there a difference between faith and belief
and TRUE faith and TRUE belief.

I'll have to say that I've come to believe what Papa Zoom posted in no. 21.

There does seem to be a reason to put the word "true" before both faith and believe.

I was having lunch about a week ago with family members and one of them said:
"we here are all Christians".

Well, that wasn't true. So it does seem that we have to decipher between a Christian, whatever that is - maybe one born into a religion? - and a TRUE CHRISTIAN --- one who is depending on Jesus for their salvation and making some kind of attempt at living a life that would please our Lord.

It has also been wonderful to read all the explanations of what faith and belief are. Together we can add such depth to our understanding --- gleaning from every person's perspective.

I could end by saying that to me faith and belief are actions words. They denote movement. A trust in God that makes us want to do things, or be a better person. Better in the sense of being kinder, more understanding, more accepting of other's opinions with which we may not agree but we're all brothers in Christ.

Blessings to all..
And, as the General said,
Please Continue...

 

[Nathan]

Talking in another thread made me realize something.

"True" faith/belief has its very first roots in the 'true' Gospel. I found I had to actually qualify it with the word 'true', because there are a lot of things that sound like 'good news' to a lot of people.

You can't say that faith or belief is true if it's not based in the 'true' Gospel. So in reality, you can know if faith or belief is the real deal if it's based on the Gospel.

I suppose that's why there are so many people who are sincere in their faith and belief, yet they don't show what we consider true faith/belief - simple because it's based of what they feel is good news, not on the Good News Christ brought us.

 

[Douglas Summers]

I often hear the terms
True Faith
and
True Believer.

I'm not sure what this means.
Is the word faith not sufficient?
Is the word believer not sufficient?

How would you explain TRUE faith and/or a TRUE believer?

This is posted in the Foundation of Faith Forum because I do not intend it to be a debate, but the poster's personal belief. Beliefs could be questioned for better understanding, but not debated. This is not a salvation issue...thus, no debate necessary.

Thanks.

This is explained in Matthew 13:24-30. The difference between the Wheat and Tares.

 

[billybalke]

Rom10:17. True faith is that which comes from the word of God and is obedient to it,Romans 1:6 and 16:19.

 

[billybalke]

True faith comes by hearing the word of God, Rom.10:17 and obedience to it Rom.1:6, 16;19.

 

[K2CHRIST]

True faith comes by hearing the word of God, Rom.10:17 and obedience to it Rom.1:6, 16;19.

I like the question put forth in the OP. It seems so different among Christians I talk to. And I like the verses quoted above, but again they seemed to be interpreted differently among Christians I talk to. So the author of the OP seemed wise to put it out as not a debate but rather what we think it means. And I can answer that.

My faith is based upon hearing with my spiritual ears. For me it started in the summer of 2000 when I heard a voice from nowhere tell me, "Read Your Bible." Those were the first words I ever heard with my spiritual ears. There came across with extreme power. Probably something like when Saul heard, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?"

Now I hear the words of the Lord almost always in what we often call "The still small voice". Because God is spirit and God speaks through HIs Holy Spirit, sometimes I pick them up as just impressions. Still, I usually get words. They come with instructions, or wisdom, or parables, or sayings, or encouragement, or sometimes jokes, and the most common thing I hear Him tell me is "I love you." So it is clear that God is love.

Now the Lord my God is not the only spirit out there. I pick up angels that serve Him. In fact He often tells me He is sending them to me before I start hearing from them, but not always. I sometimes I pick up evil spirit, but they like to operate with impression more than words apparently to try and avoid detection.

Now I have talked to lots of Christians and most do not hear from Him as well as I do. But there are others that hear from Him so much better than I do. I have trouble picking up the timing of events. I also have trouble picking up names. And so I have come to realize that I need to step into what I am hearing with caution.

So where it is written, "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by a word from God", it is pretty much literal in my case, except the it's hearing spiritual words which are not as easy to be sure of as words from sound waves. And because I hear this being I call Lord, and whom based upon what He tells me (Like Read Your Bible) and upon events that happen that relate to what I hear, I believe Him, whom I hear talking to me, to be Jesus the Christ whom is referred to in the Bible, It all matches. I've seen incredible miracles, which I can't do but they are done. I've been kissed by a greenish colored cloud in the middle of the night. He gave me the gift of tongues, in the middle of the night. He once told my spirit out of my body to where I could see the top of my head, then the small voice asked me if I thought He could take me anywhere He wanted, and then put me back in my body. That was right before I was about to go into a job interview.

So He is real. Or at the very least there is this spiritual realm and One in it whom I call Lord. And it only make sense that He is the God of the Bible based upon all I see and what He tells me to do. Still, He is pretty strange too. He just doesn't think like I do. That is one of the reason I know He is not me. So often He tells me, "Karl, I want you to ....", and I instantly respond with something like, "I don't think so." So I know He is not me. And I consider again who I think He is and almost always go and do what He told me.

It's like the post. I was working on something that makes me money, and it was starting to get late (after 10pm right now) so I was starting to consider going to bed. Then He suddenly talks to me and is asking me to make a post. Again, like normal, my first thoughts were "No way Lord. I'm busy and I'm going to bed soon." Then I stopped what I was doing, and said, "Ok Lord, what do you want posted and where." He specifically asked me to come to this thread. I heard Him. So I believed Him and that He is still God, and did it. He didn't tell me anything specific to post, so I am just putting what I think about the question in the OP. The above is what I personally think "True Faith" is all about.

 

[Runner]

I almost always find that True Believer and True Faith are used in a pejorative sense, to distinguish the speaker (True Faith and True Believer) from someone else (Not So True). I use the term True Believer in many contexts, religious and otherwise, in a completely pejorative sense, as meaning "mindlessly dogmatic." For example, New Atheists are True Believers (and Fundamentalists besides!).

As I posted in the thread on "knowing," you can "believe" something that is actually true, but your belief may be based on entirely faulty reasons and reasoning. The fact that what you "believe" is actually true is a matter of pure happenstance. For your belief to rise to the level of having justification or warrant, it must be based on properly functioning mental processes and legitimate reasons. Even if your belief is based on properly functioning mental processes and legitimate reasons and thus is justified, it may still prove to be false if someone can provide what epistemologists (philosophers who specialize in how we know things) call a "defeater."

I had always equated faith with trust. My position was that you arrive at a level of conviction (about anything) through a process of experience, observation, study, reflection and intuition, but this will take you only so far. If we take a simple example like stepping onto a ladder, you may be 99.9% convinced for good reason that the ladder will support you, but you cannot absolutely know this. When you step onto it, you are acting at least 0.1% in faith. When it comes to metaphysical subjects like the existence of God and the truth of Christianity, the leap of faith is much larger. By living as though God existed and Christianity were true, you demonstrate your faith.

I think this is what James is getting at in James 2:14-26. To speak of your belief and your faith in the Christian context is meaningless unless you actually demonstrate them in practice. If I were ever to use True Faith and True Believer, it would not be in the context of "right" vs. "wrong," but rather whether someone practices what he or she claims to believe.

I still think equating faith with trust is a legitimate approach. But now that I have been reading Alvin Plantinga, who is one of the foremost Christian philosophers, I see that this is not the only possible understanding. Plantinga makes the case that faith is actually a species of knowledge. Some beliefs, he says, are "properly basic," meaning that it is legitimate to hold them without evidence or arguments so long as your mind is functioning properly. He maintains that belief in the existence of God is properly basic. This does not mean that a belief in the existence of God cannot possibly be false, merely that such a belief can be justified or warranted even without evidence or arguments.

Likewise with faith in Christianity. Through the sensus divinitatis (innate sense of divinity) and the working of the Holy Spirit, one may properly claim to have faith in the sense of knowledge that goes beyond mere trust.