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What specifically is "guaranteed to come" in 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5?

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#1
What was Paul referring to in these 2 verses?

2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2 Cor 5:5 - Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

These 2 verses are directly related to Eph 1:13,14 -
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Now, after guaranteeing what is to come, Paul ends his epistle to the very carnal Corinthian church with this in 2 Cor 12:
20 For I am afraid that when I come I may not find you as I want you to be, and you may not find me as you want me to be. I fear that there may be discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder.

21 I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.

Hm. Doesn't sound like Christians living like how Christians should be living. Yet he told them of a guarantee that is to come.

Now, I firmly believe that what is guaranteed to come is exactly what Eph 1:14 says; our inheritance. Meaning, all believers, because they are God's children, have an inheritance in heaven.

Rom 8:17a - Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God
So the inheritance of 2 Cor 1:22, 5:5 and Eph 1:14 is for the heirs of God.

There's another inheritance in Rom 8:17b - and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

This is a different inheritance, which is clearly seen by the conditional "if indeed...".

This inheritance is stated a bit differently in 2 Tim 2:12 - if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us;

It should be clear that to "share in His sufferings" from Rom 8:17 is the same as to "endure" in 2 Tim 2:12.

So, it's obvious that those believers who endure, will "co-reign" with Christ. But it's conditional on "sharing in His sufferings".

However, that is for another thread.

My question is for any of those who believe that salvation can be lost:

What is the guarantee that is to come, from 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5?
 

for_his_glory

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#2
We are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise that as long as we remain in Christ and walk in His statures of what He taught us that when He returns He will find us faithful in all things even the sufferings we will endure for His sake as the promise is we will then be gathered up to Him and have eternal life with the Father.
 
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#3
We are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise that as long as we remain in Christ and walk in His statures of what He taught us that when He returns He will find us faithful in all things even the sufferings we will endure for His sake as the promise is we will then be gathered up to Him and have eternal life with the Father.
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#4
We are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise that as long as we remain in Christ and walk in His statures of what He taught us that when He returns He will find us faithful in all things even the sufferings we will endure for His sake as the promise is we will then be gathered up to Him and have eternal life with the Father.
Several problems with this statement.

First, there are no verses regarding salvation that include 'as long as...'. The ONLY condition for receiving eternal life (salvation) is faith in Christ.

Second, the words "as longs as we remain in Christ" places the responsibility on being in Christ on us, which is impossible. That is WHY God has sealed the believer. No human has the power or ability to either place themself in Christ or to remove themself from Christ.

While it's a popular view among many, it's fallacious. And no verse teaches it.

Third, the words "as long as we walk in His statues" reeks of works being involved in salvation, which is also impossible.

Finally, your response failed to answer the question of what the one who has believed is sealed FOR.
 

for_his_glory

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#5
Several problems with this statement.

First, there are no verses regarding salvation that include 'as long as...'. The ONLY condition for receiving eternal life (salvation) is faith in Christ.

Second, the words "as longs as we remain in Christ" places the responsibility on being in Christ on us, which is impossible. That is WHY God has sealed the believer. No human has the power or ability to either place themself in Christ or to remove themself from Christ.

While it's a popular view among many, it's fallacious. And no verse teaches it.

Third, the words "as long as we walk in His statues" reeks of works being involved in salvation, which is also impossible.

Finally, your response failed to answer the question of what the one who has believed is sealed FOR.
"As long as" means if we keep his commandments, we abide in Christ and walk as Christ walked. The responsibility is on us to remain in Christ (abide in Him). Anyone can choose to walk away from Christ as many have never to turn back to Him.

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Psalms 119:1 Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD. 2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart. 3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways. 4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently. 5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes! 6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.

1 Kings 2:3 And keep the charge of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and his testimonies, as it is written in the law of Moses, that thou mayest prosper in all that thou doest, and whithersoever thou turnest thyself:

John 15: 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

I stand on what I said that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.
 
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#6
"As long as" means if we keep his commandments, we abide in Christ and walk as Christ walked.
Yes, thank you. I am fully aware of what "as long as..." means. But I asked which Bible verse adds those words to how one is either saved or maintains salvation. That is the issue here.

The responsibility is on us to remain in Christ (abide in Him).
It is quite unfortunate that anyone would even think that they have the power, ability, or authority to either place themselves in Christ, or to remove themselves from Him. There is no such Scripture that says so. Actually, once sealed, the believer's inheritance is GUARANTEED, based on the indwelling Holy Spirit. Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5.


Anyone can choose to walk away from Christ as many have never to turn back to Him.
Yes, but said person cannot remove themselves from being IN HIM. Such a one has been sealed for the day of redemption. Eph 1:14.

I stand on what I said that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.
Doesn't much sound like it. From what has been said here, it appears your view is that a person has the power, ability, and/or authority to remove themselves from being IN HIM, which is an action that God produces.

I recommend that one meditates on this fact.

Just as we can't save ourselves, because that is God's action, we can't remove ourselves from union with Christ, because that is also God's action.

And there are no verses that support such a contention.
 

for_his_glory

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#7
Yes, thank you. I am fully aware of what "as long as..." means. But I asked which Bible verse adds those words to how one is either saved or maintains salvation. That is the issue here.


It is quite unfortunate that anyone would even think that they have the power, ability, or authority to either place themselves in Christ, or to remove themselves from Him. There is no such Scripture that says so. Actually, once sealed, the believer's inheritance is GUARANTEED, based on the indwelling Holy Spirit. Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5.



Yes, but said person cannot remove themselves from being IN HIM. Such a one has been sealed for the day of redemption. Eph 1:14.


Doesn't much sound like it. From what has been said here, it appears your view is that a person has the power, ability, and/or authority to remove themselves from being IN HIM, which is an action that God produces.

I recommend that one meditates on this fact.

Just as we can't save ourselves, because that is God's action, we can't remove ourselves from union with Christ, because that is also God's action.

And there are no verses that support such a contention.
You can either believe the scriptures you said were not in the Bible and I posted them for you or reject them as all is what God gave to Jesus to speak to us as none are my words, but only God's words.
 
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#8
You can either believe the scriptures you said were not in the Bible and I posted them for you or reject them as all is what God gave to Jesus to speak to us as none are my words, but only God's words.
The verses provided and claimed to teach loss of salvation...don't. They teach something else.

How in the world can any verse teach loss of salvation when Jesus was so clear about the fact that those who believe possess eternal life, meaning they possess eternal life WHEN they believe. John 5:24 and 6:47.

Then He said that those He gives eternal life (believers when they believe) shall never perish.

No one has explained how anyone who has received eternal life can perish when Jesus said they shall never perish.

Those who believe salvation can be lost must believe that those who receive eternal life CAN perish, even though Jesus taught that they SHALL NEVER PERISH.

How do you handle this obvious contradiction with what Jesus said?
 

JLB

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#9
What was Paul referring to in these 2 verses?

2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2 Cor 5:5 - Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

These 2 verses are directly related to Eph 1:13,14 -
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Now, after guaranteeing what is to come, Paul ends his epistle to the very carnal Corinthian church with this in 2 Cor 12:
20 For I am afraid that when I come I may not find you as I want you to be, and you may not find me as you want me to be. I fear that there may be discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder.

21 I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.

Hm. Doesn't sound like Christians living like how Christians should be living. Yet he told them of a guarantee that is to come.

Now, I firmly believe that what is guaranteed to come is exactly what Eph 1:14 says; our inheritance. Meaning, all believers, because they are God's children, have an inheritance in heaven.

Rom 8:17a - Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God
So the inheritance of 2 Cor 1:22, 5:5 and Eph 1:14 is for the heirs of God.

There's another inheritance in Rom 8:17b - and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

This is a different inheritance, which is clearly seen by the conditional "if indeed...".

This inheritance is stated a bit differently in 2 Tim 2:12 - if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us;

It should be clear that to "share in His sufferings" from Rom 8:17 is the same as to "endure" in 2 Tim 2:12.

So, it's obvious that those believers who endure, will "co-reign" with Christ. But it's conditional on "sharing in His sufferings".

However, that is for another thread.

My question is for any of those who believe that salvation can be lost:

What is the guarantee that is to come, from 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5?
The context of 2 Corinthians 1 , is written to saints who are suffering tribulation because of their godly lifestyle with is according to the Spirit.


5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also abounds through Christ. 6 Now if we are afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effective for enduring the same sufferings which we also suffer. Or if we are comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation. 7 And our hope for you is steadfast, because we know that as you are partakers of the sufferings, so also you will partake of the consolation. 2 Corinthians 1:5-7


Paul taught us those who choose to live godly will suffer persecution.


Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.
2 Timothy 3:12


So with that context in mind Paul writes to those who are living for Christ, demonstrating their faith and suffering for it, unlike those who are friends with the world who live to gratify their flesh, and those who have no reason to suffer persecution.


19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us—by me, Silvanus, and Timothy—was not Yes and No, but in Him was Yes. 20 For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us. 21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

23 Moreover I call God as witness against my soul, that to spare you I came no more to Corinth. 24 Not that we have dominion over your faith, but are fellow workers for your joy; for by faith you stand. 2 Corinthians 1:19-24


  • but are fellow workers for your joy; for by faith you stand.

By saying “us” Paul is referring to those who live to serve Christ as Paul, and also suffer persecution like Paul, because they live godly like Paul, and therefore their believing is like Paul’s, and are established in Christ like Paul.


God promises those who live godly lives, demostrating their faith by love, producing the fruit of holiness, will in the end receive eternal life.


22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:22-23

  • you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.


JLB
 

for_his_glory

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#10
The verses provided and claimed to teach loss of salvation...don't. They teach something else.

How in the world can any verse teach loss of salvation when Jesus was so clear about the fact that those who believe possess eternal life, meaning they possess eternal life WHEN they believe. John 5:24 and 6:47.

Then He said that those He gives eternal life (believers when they believe) shall never perish.

No one has explained how anyone who has received eternal life can perish when Jesus said they shall never perish.

Those who believe salvation can be lost must believe that those who receive eternal life CAN perish, even though Jesus taught that they SHALL NEVER PERISH.

How do you handle this obvious contradiction with what Jesus said?
The key word is believe. Those that believe possess eternal life. Whether you want to believe it or not many have quit believing and lost all faith due to circumstances in their lives as they choose to curse Christ instead of trusting Him as their hearts have become harden towards Him.
 

JLB

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#11
The key word is believe. Those that believe possess eternal life. Whether you want to believe it or not many have quit believing and lost all faith due to circumstances in their lives as they choose to curse Christ instead of trusting Him as their hearts have become harden towards Him.
Amen
 
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#12
The context of 2 Corinthians 1 , is written to saints who are suffering tribulation because of their godly lifestyle with is according to the Spirit.
Huh?

The statement is about the sealing with the Holy Spirit and what is guaranteed to come.

Please explain what is "guaranteed to come". Your comment about that verse doesn't answer that question.

5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also abounds through Christ. 6 Now if we are afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effective for enduring the same sufferings which we also suffer. Or if we are comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation. 7 And our hope for you is steadfast, because we know that as you are partakers of the sufferings, so also you will partake of the consolation. 2 Corinthians 1:5-7

Paul taught us those who choose to live godly will suffer persecution.

Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.
2 Timothy 3:12

So with that context in mind Paul writes to those who are living for Christ, demonstrating their faith and suffering for it, unlike those who are friends with the world who live to gratify their flesh, and those who have no reason to suffer persecution.
Sorry, but I don't see any connection between all this and v.22, which is about our being sealed and a guarantee of what is to come.
 
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#13
The key word is believe. Those that believe possess eternal life.
Yes, and that is part of my point. Those who believe have eternal life. So, when do believers possess eternal life? WHEN they believe, of course.

Esp since there are no verses that inform us that eternal life is given any time after believing.

Then, Jesus said recipients (those He gives eternal life) shall never perish.

Isn't that a promise of eternal security, clear and simple? If not, please explain why not.

Whether you want to believe it or not many have quit believing and lost all faith due to circumstances in their lives as they choose to curse Christ instead of trusting Him as their hearts have become harden towards Him.
Of course I believe that many have ceased to believe. But, given what Jesus said, His promise begins the MOMENT one believes, which is WHEN one receives the gift of eternal life.

If one must continue to believe in order to never perish, this is what Jesus WOULD HAVE HAD TO SAY:
"I give them eternal life, and as long as they continue to (keep on) believe in Me, they shall never perish."

See the words in red? Are they found in the text? No,they are not. But it seems your view ADDS these words to what Jesus said.

Just remember a warning that was given to those who either take away or add to God's Word, in Revelation 22:
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.

19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

Yes, I know these words are specifically for Revelation. But just realize that adding ANY WORDS to the Word of God, that are not in the text, is wrong.
 

for_his_glory

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#14
Yes, and that is part of my point. Those who believe have eternal life. So, when do believers possess eternal life? WHEN they believe, of course.

Esp since there are no verses that inform us that eternal life is given any time after believing.

Then, Jesus said recipients (those He gives eternal life) shall never perish.

Isn't that a promise of eternal security, clear and simple? If not, please explain why not.


Of course I believe that many have ceased to believe. But, given what Jesus said, His promise begins the MOMENT one believes, which is WHEN one receives the gift of eternal life.

If one must continue to believe in order to never perish, this is what Jesus WOULD HAVE HAD TO SAY:
"I give them eternal life, and as long as they continue to (keep on) believe in Me, they shall never perish."

See the words in red? Are they found in the text? No,they are not. But it seems your view ADDS these words to what Jesus said.

Just remember a warning that was given to those who either take away or add to God's Word, in Revelation 22:
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.

19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

Yes, I know these words are specifically for Revelation. But just realize that adding ANY WORDS to the Word of God, that are not in the text, is wrong.
I have already explained and given you the scriptures that explain what "as long as" means in post #5 so no need to rehash them as you will not accept them just because the actual words "as Long as" are not actually written in them and those words are not adding anything, but explaining something. The way you are presenting your belief is that once we believe we have eternal life, which is true, but even if we no longer believe we still have eternal life and this is false.

The guarantee is that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise that as long as we continue to believe and abide in Christ we will have eternal life with Him. Sorry you can not understand that, but that is exactly what scripture teaches us.
 

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#15
Huh?

The statement is about the sealing with the Holy Spirit and what is guaranteed to come.

Please explain what is "guaranteed to come". Your comment about that verse doesn't answer that question.
What is garauteed to come for saints who endure persecution because of their godly lifestyle is eternal life.


What is garauteed to come for saints who live to gratify the unrighteous desires of the flesh is eternal death.


Very straightforward actually.



JLB
 

for_his_glory

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#16
What is garauteed to come for saints who endure persecution because of their godly lifestyle is eternal life.


What is garauteed to come for saints who live to gratify the unrighteous desires of the flesh is eternal death.


Very straightforward actually.



JLB
Amen, pretty clear to me
 

JLB

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#17
The statement is about the sealing with the Holy Spirit
Those who obey the Gospel have the seal or mark of authenticity upon them, which is the Holy Spirit, the down payment which garautees the salvation to come.

If a person has a garauntee of something, then by default they do not yet have that something.



JLB
 

JLB

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#18
2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2 Cor 5:5 - Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

What was Paul referring to in these 2 verses?

Paul was referring to the salvation to come.



JLB
 

for_his_glory

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#19
2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2 Cor 5:5 - Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
If I can't use "as long as" as you say it's adding to the word then how can you explain "guaranteeing what is to come" as those exact words are not in the two scriptures you posted so would that not be adding or do you have a double standard.
 

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#20
2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Where does it say ownership in this verse? We are only sealed by the Holy Spirit as the promise has been made that if we endure all trials and tribulations while on earth then we will be saved and have eternal life with the Father when Christ returns, Matthew 24:13.

2 Corinthians5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
Where does it say deposit in this verse?
 
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