What specifically is "guaranteed to come" in 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5?

[for_his_glory]

Where did you get these definitions?

BTW, if salvation means redemption then what is guaranteed in Eph 1:14?

Who is a pledge of our inheritance until the [final] redemption of His possession for the praise of His glory.​

Ephesians 1:14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Ephesians 1:14&version=DLNT

Got them from the Bible, but didn't take the time to write down all the scriptures, but you can look them up, they are in there.

Nine pages of repeating myself over and over with the same questions being asked and so many answers given to them as what I believe, but yet being made a mockery by others who deem I know nothing and am teaching a false gospel so it's time to move on as there is nothing more I want to give to this discussion.
God bless all of you and have a good night

 

[Papa Zoom]

I think there was something like 17 killed. My heart and prayers are with all those families and students. We can surely see the increase of this world waxing worse and need to be about our fathers business and bump up the witness and testimony we have in Christ.

Amen to that.

 

[JLB]

I said:
"And I have asked for an explanation of WHY being sealed with the Holy Spirit would be needed to guarantee the coming Bema."

As I said, only His people will stand before Him on the Day of Judgement.


Those who are unbelievers will not be there.

 

[JLB]

I put down a $500 deposit on a car you're selling. I guarantee to make payment of the remaining $19,500 when the car is delivered. It is delivered in damaged condition, nothing like the condition it was when I put down my deposit. It remains true that I put down a deposit and "guaranteed" payment. You simply didn't fulfill your end of the transaction. I have not breeched my guarantee. Even if we had been so stupid as to put nothing in writing but my guarantee of payment, the law would not hold me to it - your obligation to deliver what you had shown me would be implied.

Given the context of the two verses, it seems clear (and is commonly understood) that the guarantee is that God will deliver on his promises to believers. Those of the OSAS persuasion would like to view this as an unconditional guarantee. A wealth of other verses make clear that it is not an unconditional guarantee. As in my example above, it hinges on the believer fulfilling his side of the transaction.

Well said.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said:
"And I have asked for an explanation of WHY being sealed with the Holy Spirit would be needed to guarantee the coming Bema."

As I said, only His people will stand before Him on the Day of Judgement.

This doesn't answer the question or provide any explanation, as your posts have made clear that at the Bema some believers will be condemned, apparently for their "bad deeds". At least that is how those posts read to me. If that's not what was meant, very little has been done to correct my misconception.

But since your argument has always been that salvation can be lost, I don't think I've misunderstand anything.

Those who are unbelievers will not be there.

Makes no difference.

The point of what is guaranteed is the inheritance of those having believed (Eph 1:13).

So, Eph 1:13,14, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 all teach eternal security. Our salvation is guaranteed.

Which is exactly what Jesus taught: those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

iow, there are no conditions for recipients to meet or fulfill in order to never perish.

They will never perish on the basis of receiving eternal life. Period.

This is irrefutable. It is from Jesus Himself.

Attempting to use verses to teach that salvation can be lost is an affront to Jesus' teaching.

 

[JLB]

This doesn't answer the question or provide any explanation, as your posts have made clear that at the Bema some believers will be condemned, apparently for their "bad deeds". At least that is how those posts read to me. If that's not what was meant, very little has been done to correct my misconception.

But since your argument has always been that salvation can be lost, I don't think I've misunderstand anything.

It does answer your question perfectly.

Those who do not have the seal; the mark of authenticity, of the Holy Spirit, are gathered up by the angels and cast into the fire and are burned.

Those who do have the seal, the down payment, will stand before His throne on the Day of Judgement, which is the day of redemption, to be judged according to their deeds.


Here it is again from 2 Corinthians 5:5, with context.


5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 2 Corinthians 5:5-10

• For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Plain as day, Paul states -

that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.


What we do, is called a deed; a deed is something we have done.


Jesus said it this way -

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,

Here is Paul teaching the Ephesians this very same thing.


30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Ephesians 4:30

The Day of redemption is mentioned in this verse, however when we examine the context, it becomes clear that Paul is associating our deeds with this Day, and warns of us not having any inheritance in the kingdom of God because of deeds that were evil and immoral.


Examining the context of the day of redemption: Ephesians 4:25-5:7

• Therefore, putting away lying, “Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,”

Right out of the gate, Paul deals with lying, commanding them to put away lying. Remember what Jesus plainly told us about liars -

Words of Christ in red: all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire


But the cowardly, unbelieving,abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8


25 Therefore, putting away lying, “Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,” for we are members of one another. 26 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil. 28 Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need. 29 Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers.

• Paul continues to list’s evil deeds, and commands us not to practice this immoral works.

30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

• The day of redemption is associated with our inheritance in the kingdom of God, and is linked to abstaining from grieving the Holy Spirit through practicing evil deeds.

31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.

Paul deals with unforgivness, which is definitely something that Jesus taught us will cause us to lose the very forgiveness of sins we freely received from God, in which our sentence would be reinstated and we would have to pay the price for our sins, ourselves. (See Matthew 18:23-35)

Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma.

3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 4:25-57

• But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints;

Paul warns these saints of immoral deeds, in Which if they do not repent, they will not inherit the kingdom of God, but rather they will be partakers of God’s wrath along with the sons of disobedience.

• For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.

Again, Paul warns these saints, not to be deceived by empty words, for because of these immoral works, the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience... Therefore do not be partakers with them.


JLB

 

[Runner]

Eastern Orthodox and Catholicism are far from believing eternal life is secure in Christ alone, through faith alone apart from works simply because both teach works salvation and is full of idolatrous practices that lead and have lead many astray.

My point was not that they are the two most doctrinally sound churches that ever existed and everyone should immediately join them (although I do believe the Orthodox are very sound). My point was that they were Christianity until the Reformation. If I were inclined to worry about this issue, I think I'd be a bit troubled by the fact that the earliest Christians (some of whom actually knew Jesus) and 1500+ years of their successors did not see the OSAS teaching that folks like you think they see so clearly. 500 years after the Reformation, large numbers of Christians who look closely and think deeply still don't see it. Odd, huh?

I actually came to Christianity through an OSAS ministry. For the first several years of my Christian walk, I had no idea there was any other position. But even as the newest of newbies, I had a strong intuition there was something wrong with this cheap and easy "salvation" that just didn't seem to "stick" in such a large percentage of cases. I've often said that if I were Satan, I would not waste my time on cartoonish evil like The Church of Satan. I would focus on clever, appealing counterfeits that were superficially Christian except in certain core fundamentals. The LDS church was what I originally had in mind, but it occurs to me that the OSAS teachings would also fit the bill nicely. OSNAS, on the other hand, would not - it is neither clever enough nor appealing enough to fit the bill.

Can we get back to the flat earth debate now? It's really way more interesting.

 

[FreeGrace]

Those who do not have the seal; the mark of authenticity, of the Holy Spirit, are gathered up by the angels and cast into the fire and are burned.

OK, now we're getting somewhere. Of course only those who have been sealed with the Spirit are saved and will enter heaven.

And this is a GUARANTEE, that those having believed, will receive their inheritance, meaning living with God in eternity.

[QQUOTE]Those who do have the seal, the down payment, will stand before His throne on the Day of Judgement, which is the day of redemption, to be judged according to their deeds.[/QUOTE]
Regarding what reward they will get in heaven.

Here it is again from 2 Corinthians 5:5, with context.

5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 2 Corinthians 5:5-10

The context begins in v.1, because of the phrase "prepared us for this very thing" in v.5. The language of the verse means we have to go back for context, not forward.

30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Ephesians 4:30

I find it quite instructive that in this verse, even those who grieve the Spirit are STILL sealed, and therefore STILL saved.

The Day of redemption is mentioned in this verse, however when we examine the context, it becomes clear that Paul is associating our deeds with this Day, and warns of us not having any inheritance in the kingdom of God because of deeds that were evil and immoral.

Agree completely !! Those WILL BE IN the kingdom, but NOT have ANY inheritance in the kingdom.

With discernment, one realizes that the Bible uses the word "inheritance in 2 ways. One for salvation, and the other for eternal rewards.

It is a horrible mistake to confuse the 2.

There STILL hasn't been provided any verse that speaks of a sealed believer being unsealed for any reason.

So it's a mistake to assume that one can be unsealed, and therefore, lose salvation.

And Jesus doesn't allow one to make that mistake by telling us that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. Jn 10:28

 

[Runner]

Who said the horse is dead?

The horse. I asked him just before he kicked the bucket. The vet said it was the worst case of proof-texting overdose he'd ever seen.

 

[JLB]

OK, now we're getting somewhere. Of course only those who have been sealed with the Spirit are saved and will enter heaven.

Only His people will stand at the Judgement seat of Christ on the Day of redemption to be Judged according to their deeds.

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

Our inheritance is eternal life, which is being granted to enter the kingdom of God on the Day of Redemption; The day of Judgement.


IOW, Eternal life is what is to come; our inheritance.



29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:29


our inheritance is eternal life.

 

[JLB]

Agree completely !! Those WILL BE IN the kingdom, but NOT have ANY inheritance in the kingdom.

The inheritance is being granted to enter the kingdom of God.

Inheriting the kingdom of God.

Otherwise those Christians who live immoral, will not inherit the kingdom of God, but they will be partakers of God’s wrath.


5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:5-7

• no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ.
• Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
• Therefore do not be partakers with them.

again


19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

• just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

again


Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10


Inherit the kingdom of God is a direct reference to Jesus and the Day of Judgement, which you have agreed is also called the Day of redemption.


Here it is -

34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Matthew 25:34

• Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom

Those who do not inherit the kingdom, will hear these words:


Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41



Eternal life is our inheritance.


And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:29

• My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life

JLB

 

[Papa Zoom]

My point was not that they are the two most doctrinally sound churches that ever existed and everyone should immediately join them (although I do believe the Orthodox are very sound). My point was that they were Christianity until the Reformation. If I were inclined to worry about this issue, I think I'd be a bit troubled by the fact that the earliest Christians (some of whom actually knew Jesus) and 1500+ years of their successors did not see the OSAS teaching that folks like you think they see so clearly. 500 years after the Reformation, large numbers of Christians who look closely and think deeply still don't see it. Odd, huh?

I actually came to Christianity through an OSAS ministry. For the first several years of my Christian walk, I had no idea there was any other position. But even as the newest of newbies, I had a strong intuition there was something wrong with this cheap and easy "salvation" that just didn't seem to "stick" in such a large percentage of cases. I've often said that if I were Satan, I would not waste my time on cartoonish evil like The Church of Satan. I would focus on clever, appealing counterfeits that were superficially Christian except in certain core fundamentals. The LDS church was what I originally had in mind, but it occurs to me that the OSAS teachings would also fit the bill nicely. OSNAS, on the other hand, would not - it is neither clever enough nor appealing enough to fit the bill.

Can we get back to the flat earth debate now? It's really way more interesting.

I think it all depends on how one defines OSAS or eternal security. My definition, which I've shared before, is never fully represented in these discussions. But I do agree with your last sentence. ANYTHING but OSAS!!! Flat earth! Yeah! How about we never landed on the moon? (actually discussing that one violates the TOS - I'm meeting with a guy today, he's 85, and he's a total conspiracy kind of guy. I just listen. Have we been to the moon? Totally yes! They even brought back some cheese samples!)

 

[chessman]

Got them from the Bible, but didn't take the time to write down all the scriptures, but you can look them up, they are in there.

Where does Abiding mean continuing without change in the Bible?

Abiding - continuing without change; enduring; steadfast: an abiding faith.

Here are all four uses of the word (abide), can you demonstrate which occurs with a meaning of “continuing without change”?

Acts 14:22

strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue-in the faith, and that “It-is-necessary that we enter into the kingdom of God through many afflictions”.​

Acts 14:22 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Acts 14:22&version=DLNT

Yes it means to continue in. But notice they ARE changing as they abide/continue in the faith by becoming strengthened! The complete opposite of no change! They become stronger.

And he stayed two whole years in his own rented- quarters. And he was welcoming all the ones coming-in to him—​

Acts 28:30 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Acts 28:30&version=DLNT

Here It means to stay/dwell. But notice Paul changed locations after this stay.

For all-who are of the works of the Law are under a curse, for it has been written that “Cursed is everyone who is not continuing-in all the things having been written in the book of the Law, that he might do them”[Deut 27:26].​

Galatians 3:10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Galatians 3:10&version=DLNT

Here Paul was encouraging them to change from the curse of the Law to the blessings of Christian faith.

not in accordance with the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day I took-hold-of their hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, because they did not continue in My covenant, and I did not-care-for them, says the Lord. Because this is the covenant which I will covenant with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: Giving My laws into their mind, I will also write them upon their heart. And I will be God to them and they will be a people to Me.​

Hebrews 8:9-10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Hebrews 8:9-10&version=DLNT

Here a change is described from the Covenant being written into their minds to being It being written upon their hearts.

if salvation means redemption then what is guaranteed in Eph 1:14?

You didn’t answer

 

[WinterPuma]

No one's stopping them. But giving them the truth removes any excuse for their views.

The truth hasn't reached them in years no matter how many threads bearing the same theme are opened typically by them and are argued typically by Bible believing Gospel truth eternally saved by faith Christians. When do you think the truth will remove the excuse those who view Jesus as dying for a lie will occur?

 

[MCoop]

My point was not that they are the two most doctrinally sound churches that ever existed and everyone should immediately join them (although I do believe the Orthodox are very sound). My point was that they were Christianity until the Reformation. If I were inclined to worry about this issue, I think I'd be a bit troubled by the fact that the earliest Christians (some of whom actually knew Jesus) and 1500+ years of their successors did not see the OSAS teaching that folks like you think they see so clearly. 500 years after the Reformation, large numbers of Christians who look closely and think deeply still don't see it. Odd, huh?

I actually came to Christianity through an OSAS ministry. For the first several years of my Christian walk, I had no idea there was any other position. But even as the newest of newbies, I had a strong intuition there was something wrong with this cheap and easy "salvation" that just didn't seem to "stick" in such a large percentage of cases. I've often said that if I were Satan, I would not waste my time on cartoonish evil like The Church of Satan. I would focus on clever, appealing counterfeits that were superficially Christian except in certain core fundamentals. The LDS church was what I originally had in mind, but it occurs to me that the OSAS teachings would also fit the bill nicely. OSNAS, on the other hand, would not - it is neither clever enough nor appealing enough to fit the bill.

Can we get back to the flat earth debate now? It's really way more interesting.

Both are definitely not sound doctrinally. So your whole premise of using them as examples for sound doctrine on this subject is worthless. Both the orthodox and RCC teach works salvation.. that’s a denial of the gospel! Paul condemns the Judaizers for the same exact thing in the book of Galatians. You act like God didn’t have a remnant of believers during these dark ages. Although these two, mainly the RCC, were the oppressive religions much of those years before the reformation, the truth nevertheless was still held to by few by Gods Sovereign grace. The doctrines of grace as it pertains to salvation, is the purest and most biblical sound truth there is. And most today do not believe this as those “who look closely” as u put it, seek to establish their own righteousness, and not submit to the righteousness of Christ. And is why they hold to works salvation like the RCC and orthodox. All false religious sects and cults believe in works salvation. LDS, JW, RCC, orthodox, all Arminian (pelagianism) groups and denominations and so on fit the bill nicely as anti gospel

 

[Papa Zoom]

Just to comment on JLB s request above, when I read a verse that someone offers here, and I hold to a different view than the other person, I am not ignoring Scripture. I just have a different view. So let's be charitable on this okay?

Also, calling out someone's view as false is unnecessary. You see it differently. Just say that. Otherwise I have to start doing some deleting and no one wants that.

OSAS/OSNAS is a contentious issue. I've struggled with it and can see aspects of both sides of the argument (debate). But I've learned over time that it's of no use to get personal or downplay someone's point of view.

N. T. Wright, in debates, acknowledges his opponent's view and always counters with grace and humility. He's a top notch scholar and yet his humility is astounding. What a gracious man! Let's be like that. Humble yourself in the sight of the Lord and he will lift you up.

Worth repeating. Closed for review.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Looking back, there have been 5 warnings posted by a moderator in this thread. So I see no reason to reopen this one. If you disagree with this action, please take it to the TWTS