When Christian apologists clash

[JoChris]

Depending on how many Alpha and Omega Ministries supporters versus Pulpit and Pen supporters are in this forum this could become a hot topic.

I have followed both online ministries for years. Both have different priorities. Way I see them - AO Christian apologetics to other religions, P and P discernment/ exposing enemies within church. Because I come from both Catholic and extreme Charismatic history both ministries have helped me form a biblical worldview.

The current war of words between James White and JD Hall/ anti- NAR (New Apostolic Reformation) bloggers over White's friendship with Dr Michael Brown is quite concerning for multiple reasons.
Links from opponents' shows:
http://pulpitandpen.org/2018/01/04/what-happens-to-white-when-brown-hits-the-fan/
http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/2018/01...-straight-dr-michael-brown-our-special-guest/

I dislike feeling like I am being forced to take sides in my mind.I will say up front - I am on side of polemics/ discernment, dislike Hall's extreme bluntness but agree with every word he said.
For a more neutral discernment source on Michael Brown's ties to New Apostolic Reformation than pulpit and pen : http://www.piratechristian.com/fightingforthefaith/

So when do people here decide they can no longer support/ listen/ watch a certain online ministry?

 

[Adstar]

The only ""side"" we should keep is the side of the Words of God... Don't make a man your Messiah.. Neither of these men are God.. So don't feel compelled to support one or the other.. Just stand with Jesus

""""" So when do people here decide they can no longer support/ listen/ watch a certain online ministry? """""

Easy,,, when what they are preaching is in rebellion against the Message of God....
Don't support men..
Support the truth..

 

[Free]

Depending on how many Alpha and Omega Ministries supporters versus Pulpit and Pen supporters are in this forum this could become a hot topic.

I have followed both online ministries for years. Both have different priorities. Way I see them - AO Christian apologetics to other religions, P and P discernment/ exposing enemies within church. Because I come from both Catholic and extreme Charismatic history both ministries have helped me form a biblical worldview.

The current war of words between James White and JD Hall/ anti- NAR (New Apostolic Reformation) bloggers over White's friendship with Dr Michael Brown is quite concerning for multiple reasons.
Links from opponents' shows:
http://pulpitandpen.org/2018/01/04/what-happens-to-white-when-brown-hits-the-fan/
http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/2018/01...-straight-dr-michael-brown-our-special-guest/

I dislike feeling like I am being forced to take sides in my mind.I will say up front - I am on side of polemics/ discernment, dislike Hall's extreme bluntness but agree with every word he said.
For a more neutral discernment source on Michael Brown's ties to New Apostolic Reformation than pulpit and pen : http://www.piratechristian.com/fightingforthefaith/

So when do people here decide they can no longer support/ listen/ watch a certain online ministry?

I had never even heard of Pulpit and Pen and after a brief look at the issue, I would never follow their ministry. James White is solid and so is Michael Brown.

 

[JoChris]

The only ""side"" we should keep is the side of the Words of God... Don't make a man your Messiah.. Neither of these men are God.. So don't feel compelled to support one or the other.. Just stand with Jesus

""""" So when do people here decide they can no longer support/ listen/ watch a certain online ministry? """""

Easy,,, when what they are preaching is in rebellion against the Message of God....
Don't support men..
Support the truth..

I agree absolutely that this type of scenario shows why we should not put our faith in man.

The problem is that both men can use scripture to support their position.
Pulpit and Pen's definition of Christian/ Christian ministry appears to be much narrower than Alpha and Omega Ministry's definition.

 

[skyhigh]

Don't make a man your Messiah..

not even me?
what about a woman?

 

[JoChris]

I had never even heard of Pulpit and Pen and after a brief look at the issue, I would never follow their ministry. James White is solid and so is Michael Brown.

I am an ex-Charismatic who was badly influenced by several 80s and 90s New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) writers. I am quite familiar with how they add and subtract from scripture to form their own "signs and wonders gospel".

I disagree with you about Michael Brown because - when backed into a corner - he supports NAR false teachers, Word of Faithers and nearly every other Charismatic leader - despite how much is shown online about how faulty/ immoral they are. He has the "do not judge *** EVER***" mindset.

Go to other Christian discernment non-blog websites which deal with NAR....
http://www.spiritoferror.org
http://deceptioninthechurch.com/newapostolic.html

...then realise White's reputation is becoming tarnished by being associated with a supporter - and some claim a leader - within the NAR.

 

[Adstar]

not even me?
what about a woman?

LOL

 

[Adstar]

I agree absolutely that this type of scenario shows why we should not put our faith in man.

The problem is that both men can use scripture to support their position.
Pulpit and Pen's definition of Christian/ Christian ministry appears to be much narrower than Alpha and Omega Ministry's definition.

Well i have heard of one of these fellows James White and watched a number of his video's and there are things which i disagree with him.. He is as far as i remember a calvinist and since i am not a calvinist well i disagree with him on that issue.. But i have not heard much about the other guy.. Michael Brown.. Now there is a possibility that both men's position on the particular subject in question is wrong???

My policy when reading or listening to other Christians is to simply deal with what they teach one issue at a time.. I consider what they say .. check out the supporting scripture they give and make sure i do it in context with the surrounding verses.. I can agree with one preacher on one point/s and disagree with them on another point/s..

I have never listened to a preacher on the Internet that i agree with 100% on all doctrines they preach about.. There are some i have gained some wisdom from and others that i have gained no wisdom from.. Some are better then others.. But i have found no infallible preachers anywhere..

 

[Free]

I am an ex-Charismatic who was badly influenced by several 80s and 90s New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) writers. I am quite familiar with how they add and subtract from scripture to form their own "signs and wonders gospel".

I disagree with you about Michael Brown because - when backed into a corner - he supports NAR false teachers, Word of Faithers and nearly every other Charismatic leader - despite how much is shown online about how faulty/ immoral they are. He has the "do not judge *** EVER***" mindset.

Go to other Christian discernment non-blog websites which deal with NAR....
http://www.spiritoferror.org
http://deceptioninthechurch.com/newapostolic.html

...then realise White's reputation is becoming tarnished by being associated with a supporter - and some claim a leader - within the NAR.

https://www.charismanews.com/opinio...campaign=Blogger - Michael Brown - 2018-01-12

 

[JLB]

Depending on how many Alpha and Omega Ministries supporters versus Pulpit and Pen supporters are in this forum this could become a hot topic

Thanks for sharing this post.

What is an Alpha and Omega ministry?

What is a Pulpit and Pen ministry?


Thanks. JLB

 

[JLB]

I dislike feeling like I am being forced to take sides in my mind.I will say up front - I am on side of polemics/ discernment, dislike Hall's extreme bluntness but agree with every word he said.
For a more neutral discernment source on Michael Brown's ties to New Apostolic Reformation than pulpit and pen : http://www.piratechristian.com/fightingforthefaith/

So when do people here decide they can no longer support/ listen/ watch a certain online ministry?

I listened to some of the clip you linked here.

Let me start off by saying, I don’t listen to or study things put out by any of those ministries that were mentioned.

I stick to the word.

That being said, I would like to ask you a question.

In the Bible, have you ever come across anything in the scriptures that seemed to contradict itself?

Example:

If I said to you -

The Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night.

Also

The Day of the Lord will not come as a thief in the night.


Which one of these is true and which one is false?

After all, they contradict each other.


These are both prophetic words about the future coming of the Lord.

One is from Jesus.
One is from Paul.


Which one do I believe?


JLB

 

[eddif]

Till you look at the body of Christ as like the human body, it is totally confusing.

Kidneys remove waste. A ministry that removes toxins colors all scripture toward their calling. They can get overboard and attack others in the body of Christ.

A liver is a lot toward energy production (and other functions). And tends to color everything towards energy. Even satanic energy can be their problem in looking at kingdoms.

We have to realize we can not cut out the pancreas and throw it away, for treatable illness. Not to attack our own body is an issue. Taking out tares is reserved till the harvest / resurrection.

eddif

 

[Free]

Example:

If I said to you -

The Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night.

Also

The Day of the Lord will not come as a thief in the night.


Which one of these is true and which one is false?

After all, they contradict each other.


These are both prophetic words about the future coming of the Lord.

One is from Jesus.
One is from Paul.


Which one do I believe?

Where does Paul say such a thing?

1Th 5:2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.

1Th 5:4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; (ESV)

From what I read, Paul clearly says the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

 

[JoChris]

I listened to some of the clip you linked here.

Let me start off by saying, I don’t listen to or study things put out by any of those ministries that were mentioned.

I stick to the word.

That being said, I would like to ask you a question.

In the Bible, have you ever come across anything in the scriptures that seemed to contradict itself?

Example:

If I said to you -

The Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night.

Also

The Day of the Lord will not come as a thief in the night.


Which one of these is true and which one is false?

After all, they contradict each other.


These are both prophetic words about the future coming of the Lord.

One is from Jesus.
One is from Paul.


Which one do I believe?


JLB

Those are examples of why it is important to keep verses in context.
Paul is addressing brethren, fellow believers in Christ. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Thessalonians+5+:1-5&version=KJV
Nonbelievers will be unaware of signs of end times that Christians should know.

 

[JoChris]

Thanks for sharing this post.

What is an Alpha and Omega ministry?

What is a Pulpit and Pen ministry?


Thanks. JLB

I said that in introduction of my first post.
Alpha and Omega Ministries - online apologetics ministry, focuses on apologetics for non-Christian religions. Roman Catholicism is treated as another religion because A&O is from the Protestant/ Baptist perspective.
Pulpit and Pen is a discernment polemics blog - exposing false teachers, false teachings and dangerous movements WITHIN Christianity. Basically like Apprising Ministries with barbs added.

 

[JoChris]

Till you look at the body of Christ as like the human body, it is totally confusing.

Kidneys remove waste. A ministry that removes toxins colors all scripture toward their calling. They can get overboard and attack others in the body of Christ.

A liver is a lot toward energy production (and other functions). And tends to color everything towards energy. Even satanic energy can be their problem in looking at kingdoms.

We have to realize we can not cut out the pancreas and throw it away, for treatable illness. Not to attack our own body is an issue. Taking out tares is reserved till the harvest / resurrection.

eddif

That is why I am getting frustrated at both ministries, both doing their best from their point of view. To use your body metaphor they are becoming an autoimmune disease, attacking each other instead of supporting each other.

I know James White is looking at big picture, willing to work with Dr.Brown whom he disagrees with (what he believes) are smaller matters.

White appears to only look at heresy in THEORY, not heresy in PRACTICE. From "narrow-minded fundamentalist" (insult or compliment depending on what side of fence you are on) perspective P&P looks at both.

White has mentioned in past having had a legalistic upbringing. Focuses on grace as result.
J.D.Hall has mentioned in past Christians backsliding badly + false confessions of faith (licentiousness). He has made warnings of leaders/ movements in error, critics have attacked/ discredited him and then Hall sadly proved correct in his predictions. Focuses on holiness and lack of it as a result.

As I have been on both sides of fence I have great sympathy for both of their worldviews. I went from a strict Catholic background to the hyper-Charismatic polar opposite. I focused on feelings not growth in faith and ended up in terrible sin.
Christians being too trusting (like I was ) is a major concern of mine.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Thanks for sharing this post.

What is an Alpha and Omega ministry?

What is a Pulpit and Pen ministry?


Thanks. JLB

http://www.aomin.org/
https://www.facebook.com/aomin.org
I do believe this org is of the Calvinist tradition. FWIW


http://pulpitandpen.org/
https://entreatingfavor.com/apology-resignation-pulpitandpen/
https://www.facebook.com/pulpitandpen
https://medium.com/the-liturgical-legion/pulpit-and-pen-preach-another-gospel-22b1fadcf259

The more I read about this group the more I don't trust what they have to say. :/ Christians eating their own.

 

[JoChris]

https://www.charismanews.com/opinion/in-the-line-of-fire/69095-two-christian-leaders-have-branded-me-dangerous-here-s-my-response?utm_source=In the Line of Fire&utm_medium=email&utm_content=subscriber_id:803809&utm_campaign=Blogger - Michael Brown - 2018-01-12

I see he made no mention of what critics have repeatedly focused upon - his refusal to condemn leaders with questionable teachings/ practices because they claim they are Christians. Brown refuses to look at the fruits.

One case, sadly from an Australian born church - https://www.christiantoday.com/arti...t-judge-by-mere-outward-appearances/76690.htm
An opponent's answer: https://hillsongchurchwatch.com/201...-to-justify-hillsongs-deliberate-sinful-song/

Defends Hillsong when a youth pastor dresses up as the Naked Cowboy.
His viewpoint - https://askdrbrown.org/library/when-hillsong-offends-naked-cowboy

Extremely soft reply - not rebuke -Carl Lentz (Hillsong) when he went on Oprah and didn't say Jesus is the only way to God. http://christiannews.net/2016/05/28...infrey-after-appearance-on-super-soul-sunday/
https://www.charismanews.com/opinio...-lentz-can-you-clarify-your-comments-to-oprah
Remember Carl Lentz is supposed to be a pastor, he is not a new Christian.

Did same when Lentz was very unclear about Christian viewpoint on abortion (how hard is that?!!!!)
http://www.lifenews.com/2017/11/06/...rtion-is-sinful-live-to-your-own-convictions/
https://askdrbrown.org/library/carl-lentz-view-and-abortion

Defends extreme Charismatics. http://christianresearchnetwork.org...bickle-and-lou-engle-true-men-of-god-reprise/

 

[JLB]

Those are examples of why it is important to keep verses in context.

I totally agree.

The context, however is the Day of the Lord coming as a thief in the night.

The Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night.

The Day of the Lord won’t come as thief in the night.


Which one is true?
Which one do I believe?



JLB

 

[JoChris]

I totally agree.

The context, however is the Day of the Lord coming as a thief in the night.

The Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night.

The Day of the Lord won’t come as thief in the night.


Which one is true?
Which one do I believe?



JLB

They are both true. Will be as a thief in night to non-believers, perhaps some self-professed Christians too? (of course God knows those who are truly saved). Children of the Light should be able to see signs of Jesus' imminent arrival, according to the bible.