When Christian apologists clash

[JLB]

They are both true.

Yes sir.

Two words of prophecy that say the exact opposite but are both true.

For those of His people and the world, that are not watching, being involved with the immoral, He will come as a thief in the night.

For those of His people who are faithful and watching, He will not come as a thief in the night.


Jesus uses this story to illustrate.

44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. 47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:44-51


JLB

 

[JLB]

Children of the Light should be able to see signs of Jesus' imminent arrival, according to the bible.

The Day of the Lord refers to His second.

The Second coming of Christ is not imminent.

All the signs He gave us must first come to pass.


JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

Depending on how many Alpha and Omega Ministries supporters versus Pulpit and Pen supporters are in this forum this could become a hot topic.

After reading their statements of faith, I can't support either of them.

 

[Adstar]

I listened to some of the clip you linked here.

Let me start off by saying, I don’t listen to or study things put out by any of those ministries that were mentioned.

I stick to the word.

That being said, I would like to ask you a question.

In the Bible, have you ever come across anything in the scriptures that seemed to contradict itself?

Example:

If I said to you -

The Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night.

Also

The Day of the Lord will not come as a thief in the night.


Which one of these is true and which one is false?

After all, they contradict each other.


These are both prophetic words about the future coming of the Lord.

One is from Jesus.
One is from Paul.

When quoting scripture it is proper to quote the chapter and verse so as to let others know where to find the quotes in the Bible.. Otherwise it is about having faith in you as a fallable man.. I do not have faith in men.. So if you have the quotes then post the quotes as verses please..

 

[Adstar]

Where does Paul say such a thing?

1Th 5:2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.

1Th 5:4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; (ESV)

From what I read, Paul clearly says the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

See this is better a person who is actually posting scriptures as verses

There is no contradiction in the two verses of course.. When one says that Jesus will come as a thief in the night it is saying that many unbelievers will be totally surprised when Jesus comes .. So the statement is true because some will be totally surprised and Jesus will return for a great portion of the worlds population as a thief in the night.. So now the statement about Jesus not coming as a thief.. Note the clear proviso is that only the believers will know the times and will not be surprised when Jesus arrives.. So for the Believers Jesus will not arrive by surprise but they will know by the signs given in scripture that Jesus arrival is imminent..

So once again someone brings forth a supposed contradiction that when once explained is shown not to be a contradiction at all..

 

[JLB]

When quoting scripture it is proper to quote the chapter and verse so as to let others know where to find the quotes in the Bible..

Ok will do.

Thanks

 

[JLB]

There is no contradiction in the two verses of course..

I couldn’t agree more.

There is no contradiction when one understands what is being taught.

Jesus will come as a thief in the night for some.

Jesus will not come as a thief in the night for others.


For those of His people and the world, that are not watching, being involved with the immoral, He will come as a thief in the night.

For those of His people who are faithful and watching, He will not come as a thief in the night.


Jesus uses this story to illustrate.

44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. 47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:44-51


JLB

 

[ezra]

The Second coming of Christ is not imminent.

All the signs He gave us must first come to pass.

i disagree he could return at any time as per signs Jesus said
Matthew 12:39-41Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
39 But He answered them,An evil and adulterous generation demands a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was in the belly of the huge fish three days and three nights, so the Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. 41 The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at Jonah’s proclamation; and look—something greater than Jonah is here!

 

[JLB]

i disagree he could return at any time as per signs Jesus said
Matthew 12:39-41Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
39 But He answered them,An evil and adulterous generation demands a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was in the belly of the huge fish three days and three nights, so the Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. 41 The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at Jonah’s proclamation; and look—something greater than Jonah is here!

Here are things that He said would take place before He returns.

Marked in blue for reference


14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.

26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.


29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:14-31



JLB

 

[Runner]

So when do people here decide they can no longer support/ listen/ watch a certain online ministry?

If you know what YOU believe and are secure in what YOU believe, this is all water off a duck's back.

I realized at the earliest stages of my Christianity that no supposed "authority" figure really had any more insight into Ultimate Truth than I did. The Pope, Billy Graham, Joel Osteen, William Lane Craig? Do they have some direct pipeline to Ultimate Truth that you, I or my next-door neighbor do not? No. They might like you to think they do, but they do not. Simple as that.

I will listen to anyone until it becomes a waste of my time; accept, reject or ignore what informs or adds to the Truth as I understand it; and then move on. I listen for quite a few hours each week to American Family Radio, 75% of which I regard as a ludicrous example of pseudo-Christianity. Mostly I listen to stay in the loop of how utterly out of touch with reality many supposed Christians are - but occasionally I learn something worthwhile. I read all varieties of theology and apologetics (as well as anti-theology and anti-apologetics) to challenge myself and remain open to evidence or reasoning that may cause me to revise my understanding of the Truth. I happen to believe that the Four Noble Truths and Eight-Fold Path of Buddhism are far more insightful (and consistent with Jesus' message) than vast swaths of Christian doctrine.

I am HIGHLY suspect of any ministry that is built around a Superstar Leader, endlessly promotes the Superstar's books, DVDs and appearances; and incessantly pleads for your donations to support the Superstar's needs. In short, I am HIGHLY suspect of virtually all ministries of the type you describe, regardless of what their Statements of Faith may say. They are virtually ALL "Christian" used car salesmen (or perhaps rock stars, but in any event it's an act and a show that has essentially nothing to do with God). I would never consider for a nanosecond sending a dime to any of them.

 

[MarkT]

I totally agree.

The context, however is the Day of the Lord coming as a thief in the night.

The Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night.

The Day of the Lord won’t come as thief in the night.


Which one is true?
Which one do I believe?



JLB

The first one is true. The knowledge of God has gone out of this generation so that the whole world is in darkness/night.

So Jesus said, "Let your loins be girded and your lamps burning, 36 and be like men who are waiting for their master to come home from the marriage feast, so that they may open to him at once when he comes and knocks. 37 Blessed are those servants whom the master finds awake when he comes; truly, I say to you, he will gird himself and have them sit at table, and he will come and serve them. 38 If he comes in the second watch, or in the third, and finds them so, blessed are those servants! 39 But know this, that if the householder had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have left his house to be broken into. 40 You also must be ready; for the Son of man is coming at an unexpected hour.” Luke 12:25-40

Then he said, "Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the householder had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have watched and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 Therefore you also must be ready; for the Son of man is coming at an hour you do not expect. Mt. 24:42-44

So we must always make ready and keep our lamps burning and be a light to the world.

 

[JLB]

The first one is true. The knowledge of God has gone out of this generation so that the whole world is in darkness/night.

So Jesus said, "Let your loins be girded and your lamps burning, 36 and be like men who are waiting for their master to come home from the marriage feast, so that they may open to him at once when he comes and knocks. 37 Blessed are those servants whom the master finds awake when he comes; truly, I say to you, he will gird himself and have them sit at table, and he will come and serve them. 38 If he comes in the second watch, or in the third, and finds them so, blessed are those servants! 39 But know this, that if the householder had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have left his house to be broken into. 40 You also must be ready; for the Son of man is coming at an unexpected hour.” Luke 12:25-40

Then he said, "Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the householder had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have watched and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 Therefore you also must be ready; for the Son of man is coming at an hour you do not expect. Mt. 24:42-44

So we must always make ready and keep our lamps burning and be a light to the world.

The Lord gave us signs, so that the Day of the Lord would not come upon us as a thief.

But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 5:4


JLB

 

[MarkT]

The Lord gave us signs, so that the Day of the Lord would not come upon us as a thief.

But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 5:4


JLB

1 Thessalonians 5Revised Standard Version (RSV)
5 But as to the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need to have anything written to you. 2 For you yourselves know well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 When people say, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as travail comes upon a woman with child, and there will be no escape. 4 But you are not in darkness, brethren, for that day to surprise you like a thief. 5 For you are all sons of light and sons of the day; we are not of the night or of darkness. 6 So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober. 7 For those who sleep sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But, since we belong to the day, let us be sober, and put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us so that whether we wake or sleep we might live with him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build one another up, just as you are doing.

To say it should not come as a surprise is not to say it will not happen. ie. Your words, "The Day of the Lord will not come as a thief in the night."

It's still a fact that no one knows the hour and the day. Mt. 24:36 And it's still a fact that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 1 Thes. 5:2

So the point is don't forget the teachings of our Lord. Don't forget God. Don't get caught napping. This is meant for believers, not unbelievers.

You also must be ready; for the Son of man is coming at an unexpected hour.” Luke 12:25-40

 

[MarkT]

The Lord gave us signs, so that the Day of the Lord would not come upon us as a thief.

But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 5:4


JLB

He told us he was going to return. So why should we be surprised when he returns?

 

[JLB]

He told us he was going to return. So why should we be surprised when he returns?

I won’t be surprised but there will some Christians who will be.

Many believe the Coming of the Lord is imminent, so the will embrace the first “messiah” that comes claiming to be the Christ, doing signs and wonders.

This will be the false messiah.


JLB

 

[MarkT]

I won’t be surprised but there will some Christians who will be.

Many believe the Coming of the Lord is imminent, so the will embrace the first “messiah” that comes claiming to be the Christ, doing signs and wonders.

This will be the false messiah.


JLB

Do you mean the son of perdition? According to Paul, there will be a general rebellion against God ie. lawlessness And then the son of perdition will be revealed.

And this guy is going to oppose and exalt himself against every so-called god or object of worship and take his seat in the temple and proclaim himself to be God. 2 Thess. 2:3-12

Sounds to me like this guy will be antiChrist and God.

 

[JLB]

Do you mean the son of perdition? According to Paul, there will be a general rebellion against God ie. lawlessness And then the son of perdition will be revealed.

And this guy is going to oppose and exalt himself against every so-called god or object of worship and take his seat in the temple and proclaim himself to be God. 2 Thess. 2:3-12

Sounds to me like this guy will be antiChrist and God.

He will proclaim himself as God, but will be destroyed by Jesus Christ Himself when He returns.

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:8


JLB

 

[ezra]

Here are things that He said would take place before He returns.

Marked in blue for reference


14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.

26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.


29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:14-31



JLB

stage is set he can return at any moment

 

[ezra]

I won’t be surprised but there will some Christians who will be.

Many believe the Coming of the Lord is imminent, so the will embrace the first “messiah” that comes claiming to be the Christ, doing signs and wonders.

This will be the false messiah.


JLB

i believe the Coming of the Lord is imminent and trust me i will not be deceived .. ATF agents are taught to spot fake money ..by studying the real thing.... i study the real thing .jesus said let no man deceive you... i follow the scriptures

 

[JLB]

i believe the Coming of the Lord is imminent and trust me i will not be deceived .. ATF agents are taught to spot fake money ..by studying the real thing.... i study the real thing .jesus said let no man deceive you... i follow the scriptures

Please study these scriptures, and tell me who will come first.

The False Christ
or
The True Christ

• And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8



JLB