When did the Law pass or has it passed away?

[josefnospam]

We are not under the Law but under Grace Romans 6:14 Those under the Law are lost. The law exists to show we are all sinners. NO ONE can ever keep the Law perfectly except Jesus. You are either under the Law trying to please God or you are under GRACE and rest in his finished work. Christ saved ALL his people from the curse of the law and we can never can to him, unless he calls you, gives you his spirit and THEN you are not uder the LAW any more but under his amazing grace. THe law never passed away, and never will, but we who are his are no longer under it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Re: Count it ALL JOY (your chiefest source of joy) when ye fall into various trials

I think the scriptures are clear, that we are not to allow the law to drive the bus?

Which is what Paul meant when he said:

"6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." (Romans 7:6 NIV)

The law still gets fulfilled, just through the 'new' way of faith in Christ's blood through the Holy Spirit, and not the old way of the powerlessness of written words.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I agree with you, the Law is spiritual.

But ponder what this means ...

Jeremiah 31:31-33

Does it mean that God writes them in hearts but since they are spiritual we don't have to act them out?

Some laws are 'acted out' through the work of Christ. Work that is then applied to our account through our faith in that work. The lawful work of sacrifice for sin is a perfect example, and perhaps the most easily understood. We don't have to literally act it out ourselves. The required work of Priest and Sacrifice required by God in the Law of Moses to atone for sin is 'acted out' by Christ and applied to us by our faith in that work.

Not so with the relational laws summed up in 'love your neighbor as yourself'. We perform that work, but still, through our faith in Christ, nevertheless.

So also do I love the Commandments of God, and I do my best to abide in them everyday, and yes, that includes enjoying him and his creation and his worship on the Sabbath

There was a day when I would have lambasted this as an attempt to be justified by the law. And then, later, there was a day when I would have grudgingly accepted this as okay for you to do. But now I understand and respect your decision to do that. Enjoy.

 

[George Muller]

Re: Count it ALL JOY (your chiefest source of joy) when ye fall into various trials

I think the scriptures are clear, that we are not to allow the law to drive the bus?

Which is what Paul meant when he said:

"6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." (Romans 7:6 NIV)

The law still gets fulfilled, just through the 'new' way of faith in Christ's blood through the Holy Spirit, and not the old way of the powerlessness of written words.

I think that is a good understanding, with the end goal of being conformed to the Image of Christ by the Spirit.2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This teaching from the Spirit is from the inside of you and is not written words.

Of course The Spirit illuminates the scriptures, but is not limited to teaching a person by them reading what is written.

JLB

"When you walk, they will guide you;
when you sleep, they will watch over you;
when you awake, they will speak to you"
(Proverbs 6:22 NIV)

What Solomon is referring to here is the ministry of the Holy Spirit. His job is to speak directly to our hearts, in effect writing the requirements of God on our hearts and not just on tablets of stone.

I like to affectionately refer to the Holy Spirit as my friend, my coach, the lover of my soul, for he has been faithful to speak to me when I need to know how to act, rescuing me from the temptation and destruction of forbidden fruit.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Re: Count it ALL JOY (your chiefest source of joy) when ye fall into various trials

I think the scriptures are clear, that we are not to allow the law to drive the bus?

Which is what Paul meant when he said:

"6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." (Romans 7:6 NIV)

The law still gets fulfilled, just through the 'new' way of faith in Christ's blood through the Holy Spirit, and not the old way of the powerlessness of written words.

I think that is a good understanding, with the end goal of being conformed to the Image of Christ by the Spirit.2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord

Yes.

Reliance on the law as the way for us to be conformed to the image of Christ, instead of reliance on faith in Christ, is what 'works righteousness' is all about. It's all about the Holy Spirit and the faith he instills in us...always has been. The way of law was a slight diversion to help us understand that. Some day the Jews will get it...on the last day of human history as we know it. Better late than never, I guess, lol.

 

[JLB]

We see this in James where he teaches laws from the law of Moses to show the way that we have a faith that is alive and able to save.

20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:20

This teaching is from Gods Law. That is the vein in which he refers to the word or the law.


JLB

I shared where he makes more than one reference to the law of Moses. Simply reading his letter makes it clear to me that the vein in which James is speaking is the law of Moses. I don't isolate Rahab's and Abraham's pre-law obedience from everything he says about how the faith that obeys according to the requirements of the law of Moses is the faith that can save a person.

James teaches us that faith upholds the requirements of the law summed up in the royal law of the law, 'love your neighbor as yourself', using examples from the law of Moses to illustrate the point. Paul echos this teaching when he says faith upholds the law in Romans 3:31. In context it's easy to see Paul is talking about the law that the Israelites mistakenly understood as the law that justifies--that is, the law of Moses. You can't be justified by the law of Moses, but rather by faith apart from works of the law, but that faith does in fact 'keep' the requirements of the law summed up in 'love your neighbor as yourself' (Romans 13:9 NIV).

Could you share the reference that James makes to the law of Moses?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Quote Originally Posted by Jethro Bodine View Post ...as a way to be declared righteous

As a way to be righteous, as a way to be justified, as a way to be saved, as a way to come to God, as a way to be forgiven.

It is no longer valid, it is no longer acceptable.

We do not obey the law of Moses for anything what so ever, at all. Zero.

It has vanished away.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We see this in James where he teaches laws from the law of Moses to show the way that we have a faith that is alive and able to save.

20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:20

This teaching is from Gods Law. That is the vein in which he refers to the word or the law.


JLB

I shared where he makes more than one reference to the law of Moses. Simply reading his letter makes it clear to me that the vein in which James is speaking is the law of Moses. I don't isolate Rahab's and Abraham's pre-law obedience from everything he says about how the faith that obeys according to the requirements of the law of Moses is the faith that can save a person.

James teaches us that faith upholds the requirements of the law summed up in the royal law of the law, 'love your neighbor as yourself', using examples from the law of Moses to illustrate the point. Paul echos this teaching when he says faith upholds the law in Romans 3:31. In context it's easy to see Paul is talking about the law that the Israelites mistakenly understood as the law that justifies--that is, the law of Moses. You can't be justified by the law of Moses, but rather by faith apart from works of the law, but that faith does in fact 'keep' the requirements of the law summed up in 'love your neighbor as yourself' (Romans 13:9 NIV).

Could you share the reference that James makes to the law of Moses?


JLB

From post #1224:

What the Bible teaches is that the earthly temple, priesthood, sacrifice, and the method and timetable for worship in those earthly things has 'passed away'. But it's made perfectly clear that the laws governing how we treat one another have not 'passed away' but are actually kept, not abolished, through faith in Christ.

We see this probably the most clearly in James' letter where he teaches the requirements of the law of Moses to care for widows and orphans (Deuteronomy 14:28-29, 10:18), and the needy (Deuteronomy 15:7-8, 11), and to show no favoritism to the rich (Leviticus 19:15), and to keep oneself unpolluted from the world (Deuteronomy 12:31 NIV for example).

James 1:27 NIV
James 2:8-9 NIV
James 2:14-17 NIV (compare to 1 John 3:17-18 NIV)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It is no longer valid, it is no longer acceptable.

We do not obey the law of Moses for anything what so ever, at all. Zero.

It has vanished away.


JLB

But we see it being taught in the NT...outside of Israel...to gentiles.

The requirements of the law of Moses have not passed away. How they get fulfilled has changed.

Christ did not come to abolish the law..."but to fulfill" (Matthew 5:17 NASB). We see this most clearly in the law of sacrifice for sin, not abolished by the work of Christ, but fulfilled to God's complete and total satisfaction, which in turn allows the 'passing away' of that law in favor of his work in meeting it's requirements (not abolishing them).

 

[JLB]

From post #1224: What the Bible teaches is that the earthly temple, priesthood, sacrifice, and the method and timetable for worship in those earthly things has 'passed away'. But it's made perfectly clear that the laws governing how we treat one another have not 'passed away' but are actually kept, not abolished, through faith in Christ. We see this probably the most clearly in James' letter where he teaches the requirements of the law of Moses to care for widows and orphans (Deuteronomy 14:28-29, 10:18), and the needy (Deuteronomy 15:7-8, 11), and to show no favoritism to the rich (Leviticus 19:15), and to keep oneself unpolluted from the world (Deuteronomy 12:31 NIV for example). James 1:27 NIV James 2:8-9 NIV James 2:14-17 NIV (compare to 1 John 3:17-18 NIV)

I sorry, but these are not the law of Moses. They were in effect before the law of Moses.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. James 2:21-23

This is from the law of God found in the Torah, Genesis, 430 years before the law of Moses.

Murder as well as the 10 commandments are Gods law and commandments which Abraham walked in, 430 years before the law of Moses.

We must not bend the scriptures to our perspective, but rather realign out perspective to what the scriptures teach.

Trying to get people to keep the law of Moses, which has to do with food laws, Sabbaths and feast days, clothing laws, as well as animal sacrifices and the requirement to either live in Israel or journey to Israel is simply not taught by the new testament writers.


We do not keep the law of Moses for righteousness, justification, forgiveness of sins or approaching God or prayer.

Now we have one Mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ.

When Abrahan believed God he upheld Gods requirement of His Law which is obedience. This took place 430 years before the law of moses.

Today it is the same, by our faith we also uphold God's law, not Moses law.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

From post #1224: What the Bible teaches is that the earthly temple, priesthood, sacrifice, and the method and timetable for worship in those earthly things has 'passed away'. But it's made perfectly clear that the laws governing how we treat one another have not 'passed away' but are actually kept, not abolished, through faith in Christ. We see this probably the most clearly in James' letter where he teaches the requirements of the law of Moses to care for widows and orphans (Deuteronomy 14:28-29, 10:18), and the needy (Deuteronomy 15:7-8, 11), and to show no favoritism to the rich (Leviticus 19:15), and to keep oneself unpolluted from the world (Deuteronomy 12:31 NIV for example). James 1:27 NIV James 2:8-9 NIV James 2:14-17 NIV (compare to 1 John 3:17-18 NIV)

I sorry, but these are not the law of Moses. They were in effect before the law of Moses.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. James 2:21-23

This is from the law of God found in the Torah, Genesis, 430 years before the law of Moses.

Murder as well as the 10 commandments are Gods law and commandments which Abraham walked in, 430 years before the law of Moses.

We must not bend the scriptures to our perspective, but rather realign out perspective to what the scriptures teach.

Trying to get people to keep the law of Moses, which has to do with food laws, Sabbaths and feast days, clothing laws, as well as animal sacrifices and the requirement to either live in Israel or journey to Israel is simply not taught by the new testament writers.


We do not keep the law of Moses for righteousness, justification, forgiveness of sins or approaching God or prayer.

Now we have one Mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ.

When Abrahan believed God he upheld Gods requirement of His Law which is obedience. This took place 430 years before the law of moses.

Today it is the same, by our faith we also uphold God's law, not Moses law.


JLB

How it is even arguable that what James (and John) say to do does not uphold the law of Moses?

The whole context of James' message is the law of Moses. It's probably the letter of the NT with the most references to the law and the prophets, the scriptures of the day. It's like he's teaching right out of the law of Moses.

The law of Moses remains as a validator of the faith that saves. We are commanded to validate our faith as genuine by 'loving our neighbor as our self' (Leviticus 19:18 NIV). James, John, and Paul teach that we know that we have done that (loved our neighbor as our self) by if we have kept the laws that sum up that command, like 'do not steal', 'do not muzzle the oxen', 'don't show favoritism', 'feed and clothe the needy', etc. How is that not the law of Moses being upheld?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

From post #1224: What the Bible teaches is that the earthly temple, priesthood, sacrifice, and the method and timetable for worship in those earthly things has 'passed away'. But it's made perfectly clear that the laws governing how we treat one another have not 'passed away' but are actually kept, not abolished, through faith in Christ. We see this probably the most clearly in James' letter where he teaches the requirements of the law of Moses to care for widows and orphans (Deuteronomy 14:28-29, 10:18), and the needy (Deuteronomy 15:7-8, 11), and to show no favoritism to the rich (Leviticus 19:15), and to keep oneself unpolluted from the world (Deuteronomy 12:31 NIV for example). James 1:27 NIV James 2:8-9 NIV James 2:14-17 NIV (compare to 1 John 3:17-18 NIV)

I sorry, but these are not the law of Moses. They were in effect before the law of Moses.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. James 2:21-23

This is from the law of God found in the Torah, Genesis, 430 years before the law of Moses.

Murder as well as the 10 commandments are Gods law and commandments which Abraham walked in, 430 years before the law of Moses.

We must not bend the scriptures to our perspective, but rather realign out perspective to what the scriptures teach.

But when someone says that the laws before the law of Moses remain, and on that basis explain why the law of Moses which came later was abolished, but forget that animal sacrifice for sin, circumcision, and the Sabbath were before the law, but belong to that which they claim is abolished, that is clearly, IMO, bending the scriptures to an improper perspective and not aligned with the truth of scripture. That's why I don't believe the doctrine being shared here (whether it's your's personally, I don't know, that's not the point).

Do you understand the implications of what I'm saying? If what you say is true then circumcision, animal sacrifice for sin, and the Sabbath have neither passed away, nor been abolished. In fact, few things from the law of Moses would be as abolished and done away with as your doctrine claims. Do you understand what I'm saying? This is one reason I, personally, categorically reject the doctrine you've been sharing here. It simply does not stand up to scrutiny.

 

[Joe Domingo]

There is a difference between the Law of Moses and the Ten Commandments.

The Law of Moses is no longer in effect.

But the Ten Commandments will always be in effect.

Why would I cite scripture, when this is so well known among most of you posting here...

When Cain slew Abel, God told him he was wrong. (do not murder)
When God finished creating the World, he rested on the very first Sabbath day. (remember the Sabbath to keep it Holy)
Abraham caused the King of Egypt vexation from God when he almost committed adultery with Sarah. (do not commit adultery)

If someone wants to argue about being free to eat pork because they are not under the law fine.

But you can't argue that same point when it comes to the ten commandments.

You either keep them all or you break them all.

I can tell you right now that in my lifetime I have broken all of them.

But that does not mean that I am free to continue doing so.

To him that knows to do good and does it not, it is sin. James 4:17.

I personally CANNOT ignore the Sabbath as if it was some regular day to do all of my business in - it is a Holy Day. I cannot willfully disobey the ten commandments because a good Christian said it was ok for me to do it.

Please remember the distinction between the Law of Moses and the Divine Law of God - the Ten Commandments.

I don't keep the Ten Commandments to be saved, I keep them because I am saved.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Trying to get people to keep the law of Moses, which has to do with food laws, Sabbaths and feast days, clothing laws, as well as animal sacrifices and the requirement to either live in Israel or journey to Israel is simply not taught by the new testament writers.

Right, not literally. But the law of Moses is much more than that. I showed you what is taught by the New Testament writers that is in the law that we are to uphold by our faith in Christ "expressing itself through love". Love is the fulfillment of the law. Not just some non descript law before the law of Moses but the very law of Moses itself as Paul himself points out:

"...whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13: )

If that ain't the law of Moses, nothing is. Even 'love your neighbor as yourself' is itself the law of Moses.

 

[JLB]

Right, not literally. But the law of Moses is much more than that.

The Law that is upheld is Gods law that Abraham was shown to uphold 430 years before the law of Moses.

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There is a difference between the Law of Moses and the Ten Commandments.

The Law of Moses is no longer in effect.

But the Ten Commandments will always be in effect.

Why would I cite scripture, when this is so well known among most of you posting here...

When Cain slew Abel, God told him he was wrong. (do not murder)
When God finished creating the World, he rested on the very first Sabbath day. (remember the Sabbath to keep it Holy)
Abraham caused the King of Egypt vexation from God when he almost committed adultery with Sarah. (do not commit adultery)

The problem you run into with this thinking is animal sacrifice for sin and circumcision also predate the law, and, the law of the oxen was taught to the church after the so-called 'time of the law'. So, it's simply wrong to try to distinguish between the Ten Commandments and the Law of Moses. Do you understand the point and how it relates to the argument? The law of Moses some say has passed away on the basis of when and where it was given and taught was not really confined to the boundaries of time and location they say it was. The very premise of the argument is false.

I personally CANNOT ignore the Sabbath as if it was some regular day to do all of my business in - it is a Holy Day. I cannot willfully disobey the ten commandments because a good Christian said it was ok for me to do it.

I'm not persuading you to not keep Sabbath. I would be wrong to do that. You are obligated by conscience to do that. In fact, it could be argued that you're sinning if you don't keep Sabbath.

 

[Joe Domingo]

The Sabbath predates the Law of Moses, it is NOT the Law of Moses. Certain Sabbatical rituals may have been a part of the Law of Moses but the institution of the Sabbath is not a part of the Law of Moses.

I don't want to insult anyone's intelligence here but I feel so forced of hand right now. I'm trying to be so politically correct right know.

Simple reading comprehension skills will determine that the Sabbath was instituted at the start of creation, long before Moses stepped foot on the Earth.

The fourth commandment says to Remember the Sabbath Day. It was already there before Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Do you understand the point? No I do not understand the point and yes you can make a distinction between the two.

The Laws of Moses was all about Law abiding and Law breaking. If you abide - you do well. If you break, you suffer the penalty - which includes sacrifices and even death.

Christ did away with the Penalty and the Sacrifice.

 

[JLB]

I personally CANNOT ignore the Sabbath as if it was some regular day to do all of my business in - it is a Holy Day

5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. Romans 14:5-6

I are the other hand like to take my Saturdays off and enjoy peace and quiet with the Lord, but sometimes a situation requires that I work or help a friend then I do so, and take Sunday off.

The Law of Moses did not allow for this liberty.

I also believe you know that the Sabbath was long before the law of Moses.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Right, not literally. But the law of Moses is much more than that.

The Law that is upheld is Gods law that Abraham was shown to uphold 430 years before the law of Moses.

JLB

Then what happened to circumcision? Why did it get 'abolished' along with the law of Moses...because somebody mistakenly thought it was the law of Moses?