When did the Law pass or has it passed away?

[Joe Domingo]

I personally CANNOT ignore the Sabbath as if it was some regular day to do all of my business in - it is a Holy Day

5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. Romans 14:5-6

I are the other hand like to take my Saturdays off and enjoy peace and quiet with the Lord, but sometimes a situation requires that I work or help a friend then I do so, and take Sunday off.

The Law of Moses did not allow for this liberty.

I also believe you know that the Sabbath was long before the law of Moses.


JLB

I too have worked on the Sabbath - but I don't do it all willy nilly. And I always try to NOT work on it to the best of my ability. Christ sees that... and his grace covers me.

By the way - look carefully, "to the Lord he does not observe it". Can it be anymore crystal clear than that .... ? Read it slowly, slowly. And you will see this is not a positive statement.

It's almost like saying, in your dad's eyes you don't care. Just because dad knows you don't care does not make everything right.

 

[Joe Domingo]

Right, not literally. But the law of Moses is much more than that.

The Law that is upheld is Gods law that Abraham was shown to uphold 430 years before the law of Moses.

JLB

Then what happened to circumcision? Why did it get 'abolished' along with the law of Moses...because somebody mistakenly thought it was the law of Moses?

That is crystal clear as well, the Apostles felt it was NOT necessary to force gentiles to do so. The apostles also knew that the Gentiles would learn about circumcision through time as a believer as well ... hence this statement, Acts 15:21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

this was the sentiment felt. They figured, if they hang around they will learn about circumcision anyway and let them make up their mind on their own.

Even doctors today realize HIV transmission is more difficult with those who are circumcised.

Edit: To those who may not be familiar with the entire context of the passage. Acts 15:21 is how the Apostles and Paul conclude their meeting on Circumcision.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Do you understand the point? No I do not understand the point and yes you can make a distinction between the two.

The argument goes that the law of Moses was abolished because it came later, after the law of God (as it's called) that everybody knew about before Moses. And it is on that basis that a distinction for determining what is abolished, and what is not, is made, yet circumcision and animal sacrifice for sin get abolished along with the law of Moses, but were given before the law of Moses. The point is, the reason they make the distinction between the law of Moses and the 'law of God', in order to rationalize the abolishment of the entire law of Moses, is flawed.

 

[Joe Domingo]

Mathew 5
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Can someone tell me what this means?

Since it already tells us what it means... does this really need private interpretation?

It reads very plainly to me.

And what really intrigues me is that Jesus, yes, our very own savior did not stop with the Law, no too easy, he even included the Prophets!

 

[George Muller]

Right, not literally. But the law of Moses is much more than that.

The Law that is upheld is Gods law that Abraham was shown to uphold 430 years before the law of Moses.

JLB

Then what happened to circumcision? Why did it get 'abolished' along with the law of Moses...because somebody mistakenly thought it was the law of Moses?

That is crystal clear as well, the Apostles felt it was NOT necessary to force gentiles to do so. The apostles also knew that the Gentiles would learn about circumcision through time as a believer as well ... hence this statement, Acts 15:21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.â€

this was the sentiment felt. They figured, if they hang around they will learn about circumcision anyway and let them make up their mind on their own.

Even doctors today realize HIV transmission is more difficult with those who are circumcised.

Edit: To those who may not be familiar with the entire context of the passage. Acts 15:21 is how the Apostles and Paul conclude their meeting on Circumcision.

Ro 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
It seems the spiritual looks much different?:biglol

 

[Joe Domingo]

Then what happened to circumcision? Why did it get 'abolished' along with the law of Moses...because somebody mistakenly thought it was the law of Moses?

That is crystal clear as well, the Apostles felt it was NOT necessary to force gentiles to do so. The apostles also knew that the Gentiles would learn about circumcision through time as a believer as well ... hence this statement, Acts 15:21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

this was the sentiment felt. They figured, if they hang around they will learn about circumcision anyway and let them make up their mind on their own.

Even doctors today realize HIV transmission is more difficult with those who are circumcised.

Edit: To those who may not be familiar with the entire context of the passage. Acts 15:21 is how the Apostles and Paul conclude their meeting on Circumcision.

Ro 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
It seems the spiritual looks much different?:biglol

George, I have been calling myself a Jew for ever 20 years, and it's not because I am circumcised in the flesh, because I'm not.

So what point have you proven? And the same way that I am a Jew because of my circumcised heart, I also observe the Sabbath in my heart. Not like the Pharisees with all the bells and whistles.

If someone falls on the ground on the Sabbath, oh you bet I will pick them up;)

What I wont do is act like Sunday is a Sabbath. But that is an entire topic all to itself

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So what point have you proven?

George is proving from Romans 2 that literal circumcision was not, and is not, something the church was expected to eventually adopt in time. It's a non issue.

The requirement for circumcision is satisfied when we are circumcised in heart, not the flesh. It is fulfilled through the giving of the Holy Spirit when we have faith in Christ. That law being upheld, not abolished, in this New Covenant in the new way of faith in Christ through the Holy Spirit, not the old way of the written code.

 

[George Muller]

Then what happened to circumcision? Why did it get 'abolished' along with the law of Moses...because somebody mistakenly thought it was the law of Moses?

That is crystal clear as well, the Apostles felt it was NOT necessary to force gentiles to do so. The apostles also knew that the Gentiles would learn about circumcision through time as a believer as well ... hence this statement, Acts 15:21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

this was the sentiment felt. They figured, if they hang around they will learn about circumcision anyway and let them make up their mind on their own.

Even doctors today realize HIV transmission is more difficult with those who are circumcised.

Edit: To those who may not be familiar with the entire context of the passage. Acts 15:21 is how the Apostles and Paul conclude their meeting on Circumcision.

Ro 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
It seems the spiritual looks much different?:biglol

George, I have been calling myself a Jew for ever 20 years, and it's not because I am circumcised in the flesh, because I'm not.

So what point have you proven? And the same way that I am a Jew because of my circumcised heart, I also observe the Sabbath in my heart. Not like the Pharisees with all the bells and whistles.

If someone falls on the ground on the Sabbath, oh you bet I will pick them up;)

What I wont do is act like Sunday is a Sabbath. But that is an entire topic all to itself

The sabbath was fulfilled in the work of Christ as was all the law. Just a circumcision was a picture a 'type' of the work of the Holy Spirit. All the law is spiritual and is not a work of man but a work of God done in and through man.

 

[Joe Domingo]

Ro 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
It seems the spiritual looks much different?:biglol

George, I have been calling myself a Jew for ever 20 years, and it's not because I am circumcised in the flesh, because I'm not.

So what point have you proven? And the same way that I am a Jew because of my circumcised heart, I also observe the Sabbath in my heart. Not like the Pharisees with all the bells and whistles.

If someone falls on the ground on the Sabbath, oh you bet I will pick them up;)

What I wont do is act like Sunday is a Sabbath. But that is an entire topic all to itself

The sabbath was fulfilled in the work of Christ as was all the law. Just a circumcision was a picture a 'type' of the work of the Holy Spirit. All the law is spiritual and is not a work of man but a work of God done in and through man.

This is your private interpretation. It is wrong. And with that I will see my way out - as things have become unproductive.

God Bless.

 

[Sparkey]

The sabbath was fulfilled in the work of Christ as was all the law.

This is your private interpretation. It is wrong.

The Rest that the Sabbath speaks of is still needed by the weary like me. This is the Holy Spirit. This is the Rest. We may see many things in the law. Can we see ourselves as the eretz, the Land? May we see the need that we have to cease from work and to worship our God? To refrain from all this "productivity" and to simply rest in Him? I sure hope we can.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We may see many things in the law. Can we see ourselves as the eretz, the Land?

Yes, I believe the 'Land of Promise' is symbolic of the soil of the heart. The parallels are many. It could be it's own thread.

May we see the need that we have to cease from work and to worship our God? To refrain from all this "productivity" and to simply rest in Him? I sure hope we can.

The work and the productivity that must cease in the 'Land' (the soil of the human heart where God dwells among his people), to realize the blessing of God in and upon that land, is the work of idolatrous sin and faithlessness.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Ro 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
It seems the spiritual looks much different?:biglol

George, I have been calling myself a Jew for ever 20 years, and it's not because I am circumcised in the flesh, because I'm not.

So what point have you proven? And the same way that I am a Jew because of my circumcised heart, I also observe the Sabbath in my heart. Not like the Pharisees with all the bells and whistles.

If someone falls on the ground on the Sabbath, oh you bet I will pick them up;)

What I wont do is act like Sunday is a Sabbath. But that is an entire topic all to itself

The sabbath was fulfilled in the work of Christ as was all the law. Just a circumcision was a picture a 'type' of the work of the Holy Spirit. All the law is spiritual and is not a work of man but a work of God done in and through man.

This is your private interpretation. It is wrong. And with that I will see my way out - as things have become unproductive.

God Bless.

Private? But it's so plainly taught and explained in the Bible.

 

[George Muller]

The sabbath was fulfilled in the work of Christ as was all the law.

This is your private interpretation. It is wrong.

The Rest that the Sabbath speaks of is still needed by the weary like me. This is the Holy Spirit. This is the Rest. We may see many things in the law. Can we see ourselves as the eretz, the Land? May we see the need that we have to cease from work and to worship our God? To refrain from all this "productivity" and to simply rest in Him? I sure hope we can.

For sure i understand the physical wisdom of a day of rest and worship. I do also know and understand the rest of God that comes from the understanding of Christ and His finished work. I also believe we as Christians should continue to remember Sunday as the Day the Lord was raised and eternal rest was granted to us who believe. I think it causes much confusion when we pretend we are keeping the 10 Commandments, and the whole world knows that Sunday is not the Sabbath of the law?

 

[Sparkey]

The work... is the work of idolatrous sin and faithlessness.

Well, yes. We are to die to sin. We also are to rise in the newness of life. There is much to learn from this. I love the poetic nature of those things that are glimpsed in the law where they may be applied and put to use. Even simple contemplation and a grateful heart is part of the "Rest". I've heard that Jesus left us "his peace" and that's something that provokes so much thought in me. The peace that our Lord showed. He gave us this. We have (wait, I'm only talking about me here, and stand corrected), I have so far to go in this. The desire that forms in me for a strong and abiding peace, like that which I may only glimpse in the life of The Christ calls and draws me toward a place where we also hear, "Be still."

Do you hear it too?

"Be still and know..."

 

[JLB]

Right, not literally. But the law of Moses is much more than that.

The Law that is upheld is Gods law that Abraham was shown to uphold 430 years before the law of Moses.

JLB

Then what happened to circumcision? Why did it get 'abolished' along with the law of Moses...because somebody mistakenly thought it was the law of Moses?

The circumcision of the flesh was a shadow of the circumcision made without hands.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Ro 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
It seems the spiritual looks much different?:biglol

George, I have been calling myself a Jew for ever 20 years, and it's not because I am circumcised in the flesh, because I'm not.

So what point have you proven? And the same way that I am a Jew because of my circumcised heart, I also observe the Sabbath in my heart. Not like the Pharisees with all the bells and whistles.

If someone falls on the ground on the Sabbath, oh you bet I will pick them up;)

What I wont do is act like Sunday is a Sabbath. But that is an entire topic all to itself

The sabbath was fulfilled in the work of Christ as was all the law. Just a circumcision was a picture a 'type' of the work of the Holy Spirit. All the law is spiritual and is not a work of man but a work of God done in and through man.

This is your private interpretation. It is wrong. And with that I will see my way out - as things have become unproductive.

God Bless.

The fullness of the Sabbath rest will be in the age to come where we will have bodies that will never die.

These bodies will require no "physical" effort as we know it.

Therefore we will be at rest and live our lives out from His life.

Immortal bodies that require no natural fuel and will never die.

Living here on earth during the 1000 years which is the 7th "day".


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Right, not literally. But the law of Moses is much more than that.

The Law that is upheld is Gods law that Abraham was shown to uphold 430 years before the law of Moses.

JLB

Then what happened to circumcision? Why did it get 'abolished' along with the law of Moses...because somebody mistakenly thought it was the law of Moses?

The circumcision of the flesh was a shadow of the circumcision made without hands.


JLB

Correct. The point being, laws get set aside (not abolished) on the basis of fulfillment, not on the basis of when and where they were given (the reason your doctrine gives for believing that a complete abolishment of the entire Law of Moses has occurred).

 

[Sparkey]

The circumcision of the flesh was a shadow of the circumcision made without hands.

That's right. And that's also why I am so curious about how or why we argues too much 'bout 'dis. Because nobody can tell me that I got to put that back on to my penis. That stuff is dead. It does not matter if somebody tells me that I am not free in the Lord and that I must follow the law because the circumcision is not about the physical body anymore. So then when we are told (and I'm not hearing anybody actually say this - it is so ridiculous that it become ludicrousness) but we simply can not expect life from that which is dead and gone. So even if the Lord Himself told me, He'd have to show me how and make a way for me to do such a thing, and that's not gonna happen either, so why we argue muchly?

In plain English, it's not possible for a Christian to be bound to the law. What the Son sets free is free indeed. Was Jesus bound? It appeared that way, for a moment, but the truth be known, no. He made that decision and not even death could hold (or bind) him.

 

[JLB]

Then what happened to circumcision? Why did it get 'abolished' along with the law of Moses...because somebody mistakenly thought it was the law of Moses?

The circumcision of the flesh was a shadow of the circumcision made without hands.


JLB

Correct. The point being, laws get set aside (not abolished) on the basis of fulfillment, not on the basis of when and where they were given (the reason your doctrine gives for believing that a complete abolishment of the entire Law of Moses has occurred).

Okay, call it in the air heads the Law of Moses has vanished away and tails the law of Moses has been taken away.

for it is written -

If the road that brought you to this place is the same road that brought this quarter here, then what good is the road. JLB 12:4-5

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Okay, call it in the air heads the Law of Moses has vanished away and tails the law of Moses has been taken away.

...you left out the option of 'fulfilled':

http://images.search.yahoo.com/imag...igi=11qghfm5j&.crumb=HlAbguv3pwA&fr=yfp-t-900

I win!

Now, let me introduce you to my air gun. Hold still.