When does a believer receive eternal life?

[FreeGrace]

More than that, he describes the gifts of the Spirit in Rom. 12:6-8 And elsewhere,

1 Corinthians 2:12
Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God.

1 Corinthians 2:14
The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 12:4
Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit;

1 Corinthians 12:9
to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,

1 Corinthians 14:1
Make love your aim, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.

Hebrews 2:4
while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his own will.

Right. All of this was referred to in Rom 1:11.

 

[FreeGrace]

I posted this:
"I said this:
"De fault in this statement is that it is in direct opposition to the Bible. John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:47 and 1 John 5:13 all say that those who believe HAVE, as in currently possess, eternal life. Not some wimpy wishful thinking about some day having it. But RIGHT NOW possession of eternal life."

All this opinion without any scripture.

The mods have made it clear that citing verses is adequate, so your repeated comment is seen for what it is; untrue.

 

[JLB]

That is not the question I asked. Most here seem to agree that salvation is not earned, it is a gift. My question, and what most here seem to be debating, is can you keep salvation by works?

You keep your salvation by continuing in the faith, so as remain reconciled to God.

19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

• if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel

Faith is what give us the hope of salvation.

• Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

If a person have faith for something, then by default they have the hope of obtaining it.


Example: Abram


God spoke to Abram, that He would make him the father of many nations if he would turn from his fathers house and go to the land of promise.

• This is the picture or shadow of the Gospel to the Gentiles.
• Turning from our old life, to follow the Lord.

Now the Lord had said to Abram:

“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
Genesis 12:1-3


And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:8-9


When we see the expression in the bible that says "by faith", we see that it is accompanied by the corresponding action of faith.

"By faith" simply means we obey what God says.

That is why it is called the obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26




JLB

 

[JLB]

I posted this:
"I said this:
"De fault in this statement is that it is in direct opposition to the Bible. John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:47 and 1 John 5:13 all say that those who believe HAVE, as in currently possess, eternal life. Not some wimpy wishful thinking about some day having it. But RIGHT NOW possession of eternal life."

The mods have made it clear that citing verses is adequate, so your repeated comment is seen for what it is; untrue.

Not some wimpy wishful thinking about some day having it. But RIGHT NOW possession of eternal life.

Where would one get the notion that I referred to "faith" as wimply and wishful thinking. I do wish my posts would be at least read B4 one attempts a response. But everyone else who read my post knows what my point was. It was in regard to what seems to be your view about hoping for salvation, you know, somewhere at the end of the rainbow, not that those words were used. But your posts are clear about hoping for salvation when you die. Which is exactly the opposite of what the Bible teaches about eternal salvation.


But you know better than that.


What a totally dishonest statement. But I'm not surprised.

btw, I also said this:
"Why disagree with Scripture?"

Seems my points are never addressed. Probably because they weren't even read B4 responding "from the hip".

The question is raised because the idea that a saved person can perish was directly contradicted by Jesus, and for the life of me, I cannot understand how or why a professing Christian would harbor a view in direct opposition to the One they call Lord.

Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish. But your claims are quite clear that your view is the exact opposite; that some recipients of eternal life can and do perish.


Well, at least this is a bit more clear. Yes, "when Jesus returns and we all stand before Him". My hope is what is defined as a confident expectation. And since salvation is eternal and is given WHEN one believes, I have no worries in that regard.

But your view is that salvation can be lost. So what kind of hope is in that idea? Certainly it cannot be confident expectation of eternal salvation, as I have. So it's got to be more of the wishy-washy kind of wimpy wishful thinking kind of hope, the type of hope that is used today for "hope", but clearly not the Bible type of hope.


I guess they'd be kinda stupid.


Rather, eyes and ears closed.


Are you now living in eternity, in your resurrection body? Of course not. That's what we have confident expectation (hope) of.

But as far as my eternal residence, I NOW have confident expectation of it, for Jesus promises that to all who have been given eternal life.

How can your theology produce the Bible kind of hope, since your view is that salvation can be lost? There's no confident expectation when one thinks that salvation can be lost. There can be only fear and trepidation in such a theology.


Are are you hoping for? To get into heaven, finally, after a life of probation, or are you confidently expecting eternity itself? No need to answer, as it is clear what your theology MUST think; hoping (wishful thinking) to get into heaven.

Not me. I KNOW I will be in heaven. What I'm confidently expecting is to experience my new resurrection body IN eternity. Something your theology cannot have any confidence in.


See what I mean? Even though you profess to be a believer, you don't even consider yourself to be yet saved. If you "do not have salvation', that means you are NOT YET saved. Wow. Certainly NO hope in that.

otoh, I AM SAVED. I know it. Because the Bible SAYS all who have believed ARE saved, HAVE eternal life, and SHALL NEVER perish.


Once again, right. "if we continue in the faith". No hope in that, for sure. But again, you've just misread and misunderstood that verse. It clearly wasn't about getting salvation down the road "if we continue in the faith".



What about all this? Where is the scripture in this post?



JLB

 

[JLB]

I posted this:
"I said this:
"De fault in this statement is that it is in direct opposition to the Bible. John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:47 and 1 John 5:13 all say that those who believe HAVE, as in currently possess, eternal life. Not some wimpy wishful thinking about some day having it. But RIGHT NOW possession of eternal life."

The mods have made it clear that citing verses is adequate, so your repeated comment is seen for what it is; untrue.

What does this say - 5:24, or this 6:47

John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:47 and 1 John 5:13

What do these references actually say and how do they apply to my post?



JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

What does this say - 5:24, or this 6:47




What do these references actually say and how do they apply to my post?



JLB

Maybe no one has asked you directly? When you hover over the "John 10:28" reference.........does the verse pop up? It does for me.

It is not just 'numbers' in a sentence, it should pop up the verse if you hover over it with your little pointer thingy and you can read the verse(numbers) that you see in a sentence.

The numbers in someones sentences are verse references from the bible. put your little pointer thing over them and the bible verse(words) SHOULD pop up......maybe talk to a site mod or admin if it doesn't work.

 

[Randy]

I didn't read through all these posts. Did anyone state "ask" and "receive"? Matt 7:7; Rev 3:20; Luke 23:42; John 4:10

Even those that were bapitized were praying."Repent" and be baptized"

 

[Papa Zoom]

Yes, I agree. One OSAS view is the Calvinistic one: God's predestined elect will persevere to the end because they are God's predestined elect and God's election cannot be defeated by man; if someone appears to fall away, then by definition he or she was not one of God's predestined elect in the first place. When I was with Campus Crusade and my OSAS understanding wasn't based on Calvinistic notions of predestination, the perspective was more that if someone's life showed little or no fruit (or worse), the reality of his or her repentance and acceptance of Christ in the first place might be open to question and, if so, his or her salvation would be open to question.

The typical OSNAS position seems very close to this - the fruit one produces is the evidence of the sincerity and continuing reality of one's belief. It is a perversion of the OSNAS position to suggest that those who sincerely repent and turn to Christ then spend the rest of their lives on a "works treadmill," trying to do enough good works to maintain their salvation in good standing. They simply spend the rest of their lives continuing to believe and showing they continue to believe.

Your statement that "a truly saved person will walk in HIM and endure" could fit any of the above models.

The only view that seems out of sync to me is the extreme Free Grace OSAS view - i.e., if one sincerely repents and accepts Christ at 9 a.m. on Tuesday, the entire rest of his or her life - belief and conduct alike - is irrelevant to salvation. Sincerely repenting and accepting Christ at 9 a.m. on Tuesday, renouncing it all at 9 a.m. on Wednesday, and spending the rest of one's life as the leader of the local Hell's Angels chapter would be no basis for the individual or anyone else to question the reality of his salvation.

One can reach this extreme understanding if one reads some of the "believe" verses woodenly, but to me those verses make more sense (and gibe with the "OSNAS verses" and the historical understanding) if "believe" is read the way the Greeks understood it - not as an action that occurs at a specific point in time, such as 9 a.m. on Tuesday, but as a continuity that commences at 9 a.m. on Tuesday and continues until the action is completed. One "runs" a 10K by completing it, not by taking the first step.



Absolutely. As Elvis Costello sings, "I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused." Threads like this can actually can be quite humorous if one sees them for what they are. One unfortunate aspect of many folks' Christianity is that it is relentlessly grim.

Reading your thoughts on issues is always a beneficial read and instructive. appreciated

 

[MarkT]

No you didn't.


Yes, the Bible does say that. But there is no mention of "gifts" in that. So my point stands.

What is your point?

It doesn't matter. Every good gift is from God. Jesus said God would give his children gifts, Mt. 7:11 and he will not go back on his word because God is the faithful God who keeps covenant. Deut. 7:9 I think basically that's what Paul is saying in Rom. 11:29
Deuteronomy 7:9
Know therefore that the Lord your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations,

 

[JLB]

Maybe no one has asked you directly? When you hover over the "John 10:28" reference.........does the verse pop up? It does for me.

Sometimes but the problem is not t only have of a statement.

Any reason why y'all never include verse 27.

Maybe it's because it shows us the condition for receiving eternal life?

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

You keep your salvation by continuing in the faith, so as remain reconciled to God.

Opinion without any verses to support it.

19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

This doesn't support your opinion. Nothing here about keeping salvation by continuin in the faith.

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

Look at the words I put in red, to show clearly what will occur when one does "continue in the faith".

Only those who continue in the faith will be presented holy, blameless and above reproach. Nothing here about keeping your salvation by continuing in the faith.

if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel

Odd how you quote v.23a without the context of v.22.

Faith is what give us the hope of salvation.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

Another misread of a verse.

This verse doesn't say "faith gives us hope of salvation", as you opine. It DOES say that faith IS the substance of what is confidently expected. Totally different than your opinion.

 

[FreeGrace]

Not some wimpy wishful thinking about some day having it. But RIGHT NOW possession of eternal life.

OK. Great. Now that you've acknowledged that eternal life is a RIGHT NOW possession, let's examine what Jesus said about those who He gives eternal life: they shall never perish. John 10:28

So, please explain how someone who RIGHT NOW possesses eternal life can ever perish, which is your theology??

Which is exactly the opposite of what the Bible teaches about eternal salvation.

Why speak of "eternal salvation" since your theology is that salvation can be lost? How is that eternal? It isn't. Not even close.

The following is what I had posted in response to your post, and it seems you either forgot or ignored all of it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
btw, I also said this:
"Why disagree with Scripture?"

Seems my points are never addressed. Probably because they weren't even read B4 responding "from the hip".

The question is raised because the idea that a saved person can perish was directly contradicted by Jesus, and for the life of me, I cannot understand how or why a professing Christian would harbor a view in direct opposition to the One they call Lord.

Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish. But your claims are quite clear that your view is the exact opposite; that some recipients of eternal life can and do perish.

Well, at least this is a bit more clear. Yes, "when Jesus returns and we all stand before Him". My hope is what is defined as a confident expectation. And since salvation is eternal and is given WHEN one believes, I have no worries in that regard.

But your view is that salvation can be lost. So what kind of hope is in that idea? Certainly it cannot be confident expectation of eternal salvation, as I have. So it's got to be more of the wishy-washy kind of wimpy wishful thinking kind of hope, the type of hope that is used today for "hope", but clearly not the Bible type of hope.

I guess they'd be kinda stupid.

Rather, eyes and ears closed.
Are you now living in eternity, in your resurrection body? Of course not. That's what we have confident expectation (hope) of.

But as far as my eternal residence, I NOW have confident expectation of it, for Jesus promises that to all who have been given eternal life.

How can your theology produce the Bible kind of hope, since your view is that salvation can be lost? There's no confident expectation when one thinks that salvation can be lost. There can be only fear and trepidation in such a theology.

Are are you hoping for? To get into heaven, finally, after a life of probation, or are you confidently expecting eternity itself? No need to answer, as it is clear what your theology MUST think; hoping (wishful thinking) to get into heaven.

Not me. I KNOW I will be in heaven. What I'm confidently expecting is to experience my new resurrection body IN eternity. Something your theology cannot have any confidence in.

See what I mean? Even though you profess to be a believer, you don't even consider yourself to be yet saved. If you "do not have salvation', that means you are NOT YET saved. Wow. Certainly NO hope in that.

otoh, I AM SAVED. I know it. Because the Bible SAYS all who have believed ARE saved, HAVE eternal life, and SHALL NEVER perish.

Once again, right. "if we continue in the faith". No hope in that, for sure. But again, you've just misread and misunderstood that verse. It clearly wasn't about getting salvation down the road "if we continue in the faith".

What about all this? Where is the scripture in this post?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It would have been nice if all this had been addressed.

 

[FreeGrace]

I posted this:
"I said this:
"De fault in this statement is that it is in direct opposition to the Bible. John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:47 and 1 John 5:13 all say that those who believe HAVE, as in currently possess, eternal life. Not some wimpy wishful thinking about some day having it. But RIGHT NOW possession of eternal life."

What does this say - 5:24, or this 6:47

Is this an admission that you have no idea how to cite a series of verses within a single book?? Really? Forget to put your cursor over each reference? That would have provided the entire verse for your perusal.

What do these references actually say and how do they apply to my post?
JLB

Anyone can see easily what they say, but putting the cursor over each one. So your question is rather silly.

I cited them as refutation of your posts and opinions.

So here's how to respond if there is any disagreement. Go ahead and quote the whole verse, and then exegete the verse to show that my claim that the verse refutes your opinion is in error.

I've made the claim and refutation. It's your responsibility to show how the verse cited doesn't refute your opinion.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Yes, the Bible does say that. But there is no mention of "gifts" in that. So my point stands."

What is your point?

My point is that your attempt to force "gifts" from Rom 11:29 to only refer to the immediate context about Israel falls flat as Paul never described anything related to the covenant to Israel as 'gifts'. Nothing. I asked for any evidence that the covenant or anything related to the covenant was described as a gift, or gifts. Are there any?

However, Paul had already described 3 gifts of God in his epistle to the Romans, so ALL 3 of these gifts would be context for Rom 11:29.

It doesn't matter.

It matters a great deal. One of God's gifts is eternal life. And God's gifts are irrevocable. Only an irrational person will resist the fact that eternal life is irrevocable.

Every good gift is from God. Jesus said God would give his children gifts, Mt. 7:11 and he will not go back on his word because God is the faithful God who keeps covenant. Deut. 7:9 I think basically that's what Paul is saying in Rom. 11:29

One of God's gifts is eternal life. There is nothing in Deut 7:9 about gifts. So your "thoughts" about what Paul was saying in Rom 11:29 are in error.

We KNOW what Paul was thinking about gifts in Rom 11:29 because he specifically described 3 of God's gifts before he got to 11:29.

Deuteronomy 7:9
Know therefore that the Lord your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations,

Again, no mention of gifts here.

 

[FreeGrace]

Sometimes but the problem is not t only have of a statement.

Any reason why y'all never include verse 27.

No need to. v.27 isn't a conditional statement. It's a descriptive statement.

And v.28 isn't a conditional statement. It's a declarative statement.

Maybe it's because it shows us the condition for receiving eternal life?

Wrong. Jesus already covered that clearly way back in 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:47. Whoever believes HAS eternal life.

 

[chessman]

faith IS the substance of what is confidently expected.

Which is why people who hold this substance (Biblical saving faith) have something substantive. Sure it's unseen. But so, lot's of unseen things are real substantive things that you cannot now 'see'. Love, the risen Christ, ...

Therefore, having saving faith ensures Biblical hope "that does not disappoint":

Romans 5:5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
​

Paul even explains why this "hope" does not disappoint; Because the love of God has been (not will be) poured out in our hearts.

Paul even explains through whom this Biblical "hope" is given to us (as a gift, BTW) and therefore this hope does not disappoint (ever); because it (this hope) came through the Holy Spirit.

OSAS: our hope does not disappoint because it's a gift of God's love. Just as eternal as God is, so is God's love poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit eternal.


Which is why I believe:

that genuine believers are born again by the Holy Spirit of God, and are indwelt, baptized into the body of Christ, the true church, and sealed by the Holy Spirit, and thus, unable to be separated from the love of Jesus Christ.​

 

[ezra]

this post started out good. now all of a sudden it seems some are playing GOD . determining at what point we get eternal life. Jesus paid the price not us. so it appears jesus is still on the cross. while others take turn sitting on the throne of grace

 

[gr8grace3]

this post started out good. now all of a sudden it seems some are playing GOD . determining at what point we get eternal life. Jesus paid the price not us. so it appears jesus is still on the cross. while others take turn sitting on the throne of grace

The Lord Jesus Christ was very clear when we get eternal life..........the moment we BELIEVE/TRUST in Him(His work for us on His Cross.)

“Whosoever believes in me will not perish, but have everlasting life.” Jn 3:15

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him will not perish, but have everlasting life.” Jn 3:16

“He that believes on him is not condemned, but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” Jn 3:18

“He that believes the Son has everlasting life, and he that believes not the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” Jn 3:36

“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one that which sees the Son, and believes on him, will have everlasting life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”Jn 6:40

“Truly I say unto you, he that believes on me, has everlasting life.” Jn 6:47


Eph 2:6~~New American Standard Bible
and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

 

[ezra]

The Lord Jesus Christ was very clear when we get eternal life..........the moment we BELIEVE/TRUST in Him(His work for us on His Cross.)

agreed in fact at the beginning of this post i said something like that my self.. then suddenly the favorite argument (debate} **** once saved always saved or you can lose it .. no matter what it will never be settled 30 pages later and the beating of the dead horse still goes on

 

[JLB]

No need to. v.27 isn't a conditional statement. It's a descriptive statement.

And v.28 isn't a conditional statement. It's a declarative statement.

So you purposely didn't include verse 27, because in your opinion is it doesn't pertain to vs 28 as a condition or requirement.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

• Do you believe Jesus will give eternal life to those who ignore His Voice?
• Do you believe Jesus will give eternal life to those who He doesn't know?

JLB