Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
-
Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
When does a believer receive eternal life?
- Thread starter FreeGrace
- Start date
Why do you continue to degrade faith as some wimpy wishful thinking?
Faith is the substance of the very thing we are hoping for.
If we are hoping for something, then we simply do not yet have the thing we are hoping for.
That is what faith is, directly from the scriptures.
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1
Paul describes this for us.
24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25
Why does one hope for what he does not yet see?
We don't yet see our salvation, but we who have faith have the confident hope of obtaining it when Jesus comes to gather His people on the last Day, when He raises us from the dead, and we stand before Him on the Day of Judgement.
This is basic entry level Christianity 101.
Those who continue in this precious faith, are those who continue to be reconciled to God.
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23
- who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled
- if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel
Grounded and steadfast in the faith.
Now it becomes more clear why you seem to downplay and disregard faith, and what faith is, as "wimpy wishful thinking", because it seems that you want to get people "think" they have already obtained something that we are hoping for, so as to disregard their faith.
JLB
So you purposely didn't include verse 27, because in your opinion is it doesn't pertain to vs 28 as a condition or requirement.
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28
- Do you believe Jesus will give eternal life to those who ignore His Voice?
- Do you believe Jesus will give eternal life to those who He doesn't know?
JLB
- Do you believe Jesus will give eternal life to those who ignore His Voice?
- Do you believe Jesus will give eternal life to those who He doesn't know?
JLB
civilwarbuff
Member
OK, so you can't earn salvation through works; you can't keep salvation through works; you can only keep salvation through continuing faith (understanding not everyone agrees with the 3rd part) right so far? And you can't have salvation without initial/continuing faith, right?
But then James says:
Jas 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food,
Jas 2:16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?
Jas 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Jas 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
So, here we have if you don't have works then you don't have faith; and by the above if you don't have faith then you don't have salvation.
If you have not works your faith is dead/nonexistant and without faith it is impossible to have salvation. So it appears works and salvation are inextricably tied together even as some would deny that.
I am sure this has been advanced before by many people but still it sure seems to make sense.
The works that James specifies is obedience to God, from Whom we get faith when He speaks to us.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:18-24
- Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
Abraham had faith when the Lord told him to offer Isaac on the altar.
Abraham had faith when He prepared to leave.
Abraham had faith when climbing the mountain.
Abraham had faith when he gathered the sticks for the fire.
Abraham had faith when he tied his only son down.
However it wasn't until he raised the knife to take his son's life that his faith, produced the divine result of justifying Abraham.
Faith without the action or work of obedience is dead, and will not produce the intended divine result.
In our salvation, it is obeying the Gospel command to repent, which is confessing Jesus as Lord.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10
- with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Now it came to pass after these things that God tested Abraham, and said to him, “Abraham!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
2 Then He said, “Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.”
3 So Abraham rose early in the morning and saddled his donkey, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son; and he split the wood for the burnt offering, and arose and went to the place of which God had told him. 4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted his eyes and saw the place afar off. 5 And Abraham said to his young men, “Stay here with the donkey; the lad and I will go yonder and worship, and we will come back to you.”
6 So Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering and laid it on Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife, and the two of them went together. 7 But Isaac spoke to Abraham his father and said, “My father!”
And he said, “Here I am, my son.”
Then he said, “Look, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?”
8 And Abraham said, “My son, God will provide for Himself the lamb for a burnt offering.” So the two of them went together.
9 Then they came to the place of which God had told him. And Abraham built an altar there and placed the wood in order; and he bound Isaac his son and laid him on the altar, upon the wood. 10 And Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son.
11 But the Angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!”
So he said, “Here I am.”
12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.” Genesis 22:1-12
JLB
civilwarbuff
Member
But that is not how the word 'works' is used here in James 2:14
Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
ἔργον érgon, er'-gon; from a primary (but obsolete) ἔργω érgō (to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication, an act:—deed, doing, labour, work.
Works, as used here, implies some physical act or labor as opposed to a more spiritual perspective such as obedience, trust, love, etc which is something due God simply because He is God as is stated:
om 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;
Rom 14:11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.
chessman
Member
And Jesus told the one who believed in Him that he would follow Him that day to Paradise.
Luke 23:43-44 And he said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.” And by this time it was about the sixth hour, and darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour.
The guy had three whole hours to lose his salvation after Jesus made this unconditional claim. Anti-OSAS has to wonder how Jesus knew this thief wouldn't be convinced by Jesus' death and become lost.
OSAS doesn't have that wonder. We know that His sheep follow Him unconditionally. Why??? Because God said so. He knows them:
John 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
And for those that think this
is a 'conditional' statement (when it's clearly not) He even double down and clarified it twice: His sheep will NEVER perish FOREVER!John 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish forever, and no one will seize them out of my hand.
Well as far back as my memory goes I have also loved and believed in Jesus. Yet there are many in this world who refuse to believe.And Jesus told the one who believed in Him that he would follow Him that day to Paradise.
Luke 23:43-44 And he said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.” And by this time it was about the sixth hour, and darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour.
The guy had three whole hours to lose his salvation after Jesus made this unconditional claim. Anti-OSAS has to wonder how Jesus knew this thief wouldn't be convinced by Jesus' death and become lost.
OSAS doesn't have that wonder. We know that His sheep follow Him unconditionally. Why??? Because God said so. He knows them:
John 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
And for those that think this
John 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish forever, and no one will seize them out of my hand.
In fact I ask those who claimed to be Christians at one time and then leave and promote another faith such as Judaism,"how can one have the Spirit of Christ in them and not know Jesus lives?"
But Jesus did say the Father will give his children gifts and Paul is a disciple of Jesus. And Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant. Heb. 9:15 So the gifts and the call of God come by way of the new covenant which has been ratified by the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ so it can not be revoked.
I believe that's what Paul is saying. So there's no reason for Paul to be specific, and it explains why he said gifts instead of eternal life.
Last edited:
Edward
2024 Supporter
Yes.
chessman
Member
Demonstrating to people, not to God of course, that His sheep indeed follow Him. God knew him (Abram) before all this, God called him His friend.
Genesis 17:1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old Yahweh appeared to Abram. And he said to him, “I am El-Shaddai; walk before me and be blameless
Isaiah 41:8-9 But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you, the offspring of Abraham my friend, you whom I grasped from the ends of the earth and called from its remotest parts and told, “You are my servant; I have chosen you and I have not rejected you.”
God doesn't reject His sheep. He goes after them until He finds them, grasps them and puts them on His shoulders. Now that eternal security.
Amen.
chessman
Member
How effective is God at doing something about His disciples' (His sheep) lifestyles?
Matthew 4:19-20 And He says to them, “Come after Me and I will make you fishermen of people”. And immediately the ones, having left the nets, followed Him.
There was no need to add v.27 to Jesus' DECLARATIVE statement in v.28. And the opinion that v.27 is a condition or requirement for never perishing totally misses the mark.
The point of v.28 is that recipients (those given eternal life) of eternal life shall NEVER PERISH.
But your stated opinion is that saved people (recipients of eternal life) CAN perish. Which is in total opposition to Jesus's teaching.
Where is the source that states that the connecting word "and" means a condition to be met??
Let's not depend on one's opinion. Let's examine exactly what Scripture says.
The Bible is very clear about who possesses eternal life, in the PRESENT TENSE. Believers. Period.
Believers who have disregarded Jesus' teaching in John 10:28 certainly are NOT hearing Him, but instead ignoring His voice.
So your questions are irrelevant, as believers demonstrate all the time that they actually DO ignore His voice and don't know what He teaches.
Jesus was clear about possession of eternal life; believers.
John 3:15,16
15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.
1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
It is inexcusable to believe that one who possesses (has) eternal life can EVER PERISH, when Jesus said they shall NEVER PERISH.
Removing the "N" from Jesus' statement to change "never" to "ever" is in direct opposition to His teaching.
I've never done that and everyone who has read my posts knows that. All you're doing is exposing your failure to read and understand my posts.
One more time, I have put the point of what is meant by "if you continue in the faith".
The end of v21 "He has reconciled" refers to Christ's death on the cross for humanity. We read the same principle in 2 Cor 5:19 - that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
Why did He do this? That believers could be "presented holy, blameless and above reproach in His sight. That's what He wants to see in believers. But, the ONLY WAY that will occur, is IF believers "continue in the faith", in v.23.
If there is disagreement with this exegesis, feel free to take these points one by one and explain how and why they are in error.
Disagreement without exegesis/explanation is merely opinion.
This makes me chuckle. The one who repeatedly charges that I only quote part of verses, or even leave whole verses out, such as v.27 when I quote John 10:28, does the SAME THING here.
Where is v.22? You quoted the last 5 words of v.21, then COMPLETELY ignored v.22, and then quoted all of v.23. Slick.
But that's what one MUST DO when trying to change the meaning of the passage. But I highlighted IN RED the words that provide clear understanding what "if we continue in the faith" really means, which has nothing to do with salvation requiring on-going believing.
Right. That is the ONLY WAY for God to "present us holy, blameless and above reproach IN HIS SIGHT. By continuing in the faith.
So, please stop ignoring v.22, which provides the CORRECT context for v.23.
Rather, it now becomes QUITE CLEAR how you twist verses and passages to fit your opinions, rather than to let the text speak for itself.
He gives eternal life to whoever believes in Him. John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 6:47 and 1 John 5:13.
And those He gives eternal life (recipients) shall NEVER PERISH.
So there is no excuse for believing that any recipient can EVER PERISH. Don't leave the "N" out. Jesus didn't.
Yet Paul DID specifically describe 3 of God's gifts in Romans before he penned 11:29. It's not wise to ignore this context for what Paul meant by "gifts" in that verse.
Further, NO WHERE in Scripture is the covenant with Israel described as a gift of God. No where. So Rom 11:29 does NOT refer to that.
OK, let's go with this. What are these gifts of the new covenant?
1. 1:11 spiritual gifts
2. 3:24, 5:1516,17 justification
3. 6:23 eternal life
There you go. Eternal life, along with spiritual gifts and justification are irrevocable.
Now that we're on the same page, I agree with you.
Of course there was no reason to be specifi in 11:29. He was already specific asbout 3 of God's gifts previously.
And it does explain why he said "gifts" instead of just one of them. He was emphasizing all 3, which I've noted and cited from Romans.
I'm glad we're on the same page.
btw, in post #533, I asked 3 questions in red, for emphasis. Would you mind answering them?