When Even God gives up on us (Romans 1:26-2:1)

Discussion in 'Theology' started by godsquadgeek, Nov 27, 2017.

  1. Randy

    Randy Member

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    But God hardened Pharaohs heart just as you read God commanded Pharaoh to let His people go. Pharaohs reaction was as God knew.

    And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day.
     
  2. WIP

    WIP Staff Member Administrator

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    No, it's not. You brought it up as a defense for a previous statement. I'm only trying to show you that it was a pointless defense.
     
  3. WIP

    WIP Staff Member Administrator

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    Giving them up to their own wickedness does not necessarily mean He hardened their hearts. In fact, I propose their hearts were already hardened as evidenced by their actions and God let them have what they desired.
     
  4. godsquadgeek

    godsquadgeek Member

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    the please define what it means for God to harden hearts, versus giving them over to a reprobate mind, because I believe they are synonymous.
     
  5. godsquadgeek

    godsquadgeek Member

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    well, okay. But I still believe the summary of chapter one is that the gentile condemned via the natural law. But I will double check my Bible outlines later. And post. But each of the chapters, 1-3 condemn different groups and by different means.
     
  6. WIP

    WIP Staff Member Administrator

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    I guess we're getting into differences of opinion at this point. The way I understand God hardening the heart vs giving them over to reprobate mind would be that for the former, God would be the cause of their rejection. For the latter, they were the cause of their rejection of God and God allowed them to have what they desired.

    I can provide a human example. When our daughters were young I often found myself instructing them to dress warmer for the bus ride to school in the morning during the winter. My reasoning was that they would be prepared if the bus would break down or something. But, as with pretty much all children these days, they just didn't want to wear boots and hats and mittens to school. That would be uncool. Eventually, as they got older I began to back off because I figured they heard it enough and were getting old enough to take some responsibility. One time when they were riding with me and we had a snow storm so the country road leading to our home was covered with snow drifts we got stuck and had to walk home (about 1/2 mile). All they had on their feet were tennis shoes. A half mile doesn't seem too far but when you're walking in knee deep snow your feet will get plenty cold. Needless to say, they learned a lesson.

    I didn't cause them to disregard my instructions by somehow hardening their hearts. The chose that for themselves. I did give them over to their own desires and as I hoped they got a strong lesson out of it.

    I hope that helps show the difference.
     
  7. Papyrus_dust

    Papyrus_dust Member

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    Amen. Sadly enough for God would that all be saved.
    However, it cannot be anything less being the Father creator of all is eternally knowledgeable of all things unto eternity. He knows those who will receive his covenant grace. And he knows who shall not. Did know, before that one was conceived in their mothers womb.

    And how many in this life have we seen demonstrate that fact? So called, radical atheists. Those so assured there can be no such thing as God, or there is no proof that God exists. So sure that they are organized to fight against any proclamation to the contrary.
    And how arrogant that is. To breathe in this life and swear up and down that no thing mortals call "God" , can be the source for that.
    It's all just what? Chance? And then those very sort are all about science and its theories.When they fail to realize science is populated with Christians. And those atheist scientists are still looking for what they conceive of as the first cause, and what others call, God. It is then a matter of terminology and yet, the extraordinary lengths some terminologists, my word creation, impressed? :tongue , will suffer in Hell for all eternity never conceding that the answer they were always sure of that was not God, indeed was.
     
  8. godsquadgeek

    godsquadgeek Member

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    so if God is responsible for hardening ones heart, that is on par with God electing to Hell. Which is unscriptural.
     
  9. WIP

    WIP Staff Member Administrator

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    I see your point. Good question and I honestly don't have an answer right now.
     
  10. MCoop

    MCoop Member

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    What does it mean to you for God to be Sovereign over all creation? And just say you are correct that God saw in time who would believe the gospel and on that basis elects or predestined that sinner to eternal life. So is God unjust for creating sinners who He knew would never believe to go to hell? And if not why or for what purpose did God create a people for hell under those circumstances?
     
  11. MCoop

    MCoop Member

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    Of course our wickedness is a means by which God hardens a sinner. Man is born guilty and wicked. God uses means to bring about His purpose and decree.. as in the case with Christ and His death. Acts 2:23. Men through their own volition murdered Christ Jesus. And yet it was ordained of God for it to be so
     
  12. godsquadgeek

    godsquadgeek Member

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    He is not unjust because they choose of their free will to forfeit heaven.
     
  13. godsquadgeek

    godsquadgeek Member

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    But who's fault was it that Christ was crucified? If they did it through their own volition, God merely allowed passively, He was not actively involved lest the cross be of no affect?
     
  14. MCoop

    MCoop Member

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    How can a sinner forfeit heaven when he never possessed it to begin with? And that definitely didn’t answer my question. Who’s deserving of eternal life anyways? So God loved Jacob over Essau because He saw down the corridors of time Jacobs free will choice? How does your answer justify why He created sinners for hell?
     
  15. MCoop

    MCoop Member

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    Men are held accountable for their sin and is why God is just in condemning them. You still didn’t disprove God ordained it. How do you interpret that scripture?
     
  16. godsquadgeek

    godsquadgeek Member

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    thats your view, not mine. I believe you think man has no role in his own salvation yet God won't repent for you, He allows us all to come into the faith, and grants repentance, yes. But He will not repent for you. I think this is where you were going in your comment?
     
  17. godsquadgeek

    godsquadgeek Member

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    Just because God ordains something doesn't mean that He always has an active role in performing it. He very well may raise up other vessels to perform the action. And those vessels are required to be obedient, God won't be obedient for them.
     
  18. Randy

    Randy Member

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    "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

    Satan leads the whole world astray.
     
  19. MCoop

    MCoop Member

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    Your opinion is wrapped around the autonomy of the will, and is why you assume something as silly as God repenting and believing for the saved sinner. Regeneration brings life to a dead sinner which in turn becomes a new creation in Christ. Therefore his will or volition is now in subjection to Christ and His righteousness, through faith and a repentant heart. As in the valley of dry bones in Ezekiel 37. The unregenerate mans nature only wills what he’s controlled by. And is held in bondage by sin and Satan. Apart from Gods mercy in Christ, man is under Gods wrath and judgement and doomed for hell. So what did God see in Jacob to love him over His hatred for Essau?
     
  20. MCoop

    MCoop Member

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    Are you trying to insinuate this justifies libertarian free will?
     

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