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which jesus should the jews believe in?

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jasoncran

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jews teach that theres are two types of the moshiac(hamashiac isnt used in jewry).

ben david, and ben joseph.ben david is the warrior/protecter and wise ruler. while ben joseph is the suffering man.in short of course the futurists seem to miss the mark when they teach that
jews will repent at the coming of the moshiac ben david.ben david is the one they wanted when jesus came.they rejected him as he didnt set isreal free.
jesus came into jerusalem on a donkey.thus he came to rule as a king did when he was to be proclaimed king of the isreal nation in david and solomon's days.yet when they went to war they rode often on a white horse. what image is jesus seen in revalation?
 
The Messianic Redemption will be ushered in by a person, a human leader, a descendant of Kings David and Solomon, who will reinstate the Davidic royal dynasty. According to tradition, Moshiach will be wiser than Solomon, and a prophet around the level of Moses.
Ever since the destruction of the Holy Temple, in every generation there is an individual, a scion of the House of David, who has the potential to be the Moshiach. If at any moment the Jews are worthy of redemption, this person would be directed from Above to assume the role of the redeemer.
In every generation there is a scion of the House of David who has the potential to be the MoshiachDuring the Messianic Era, the Moshiach will serve a dual role. He will be a monarch, ruling over all of humanity with kindness and justice, and upholding the law of the Torah—613 commandments for the Jews, and seven for the non-Jews. He will also be the ultimate teacher, the conduit for the deepest and most profound dimensions of the Torah which will then be revealed by G‑d.
How are we to identify the Moshiach?
Moshiach is not identified by his ability to perform earth-shattering miracles. In fact, he isn't required to perform any miracles at all (although the performance of miracles doesn't disqualify him either).
The following are the criteria for identifying the Moshiach, as written by Maimonides:
If we see a Jewish leader who (a) toils in the study of Torah and is meticulous about the observance of the mitzvot, (b) influences the Jews to follow the ways of the Torah and (c) wages the "battles of G‑d"—such a person is the "presumptive Moshiach."
If the person succeeded in all these endeavors, and then rebuilds the Holy Temple in Jerusalem and facilitates the ingathering of the Jews to the Land of Israel—then we are certain that he is the Moshiach.

this is close to ben david in the days of the pharisees.
http://www.chabad.org/library/moshiach/article_cdo/aid/1121893/jewish/The-Basics.htm
 
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found it!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah_ben_Joseph

The Messiah ben Joseph, according to Rabbi Meir Leib ben Yechiel Michael Weiser (“MALBIM”) (1809-1879 CE), will be the future leader of the Lost Ten Tribes when they return (see Malbim on Ezekiel 37 and Micah 5). The Messiah ben Joseph will initiate union with Judah who will be led by Messiah son of David. Later The Messiah son of Joseph is killed and Messiah son of David rules over all Twelve Tribes. Prior to the Malbim, it has been claimed, Messiah son of Joseph was not considered the future leader of the Ten Tribes, although twice it is mentioned that a part of the Ten Tribes will be found among those who will gather about his standard. The Book "Kol HaTor," attributed to followers of Eliyahu of Vilna, deals at length with Messiah son of Joseph and his role in bringing back the exiles and rebuilding the Land of Israel.

In the Judean Desert texts, he appears in 4Q372 (c. 200 BCE) as a suffering righteous Joseph, who cries out to God in his death-throes as ‘My father’, citing Psalms 89 and 22, and predicts that he will arise to do justice and righteousness.[3] The poly-messianic Testimonia text 4Q175 (c. 100 BCE) presents him as a latterday Joshua, together with King Messiah, priest, and prophet figures.




 
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Post-exile Jewish messianic thought is perhaps some of the most embarrassingly self-delusional belief this side of Christian futurism. The irony is that any messianic trait Jews seek can be shown to be found through Jesus Christ, just not in the foolish way they might expect.
 
i know, its wierd but the futurists should have at least learned the jews see two messiahs. one for judah and one for isreal.i just learned that.
 
i know, its wierd but the futurists should have at least learned the jews see two messiahs. one for judah and one for isreal.i just learned that.

Is that universally accepted in Judaism, or are there as many Jewish messianic views as there are different views in Christian eschatology?
 
i dont know, i use chabad.org and also wikipedia. where wiki got there info on ben joseph i dont know. i do know that maimonedes is orthodox. so likely its the orthodox.
 
The early catholic authorities pushed that not only could jews not continue their practices and be christians, they also didn't allow converts to christianity also become jewish. The jewish leaders of the time actually agreed with the christian leaders on this point, and there was a collaboration and agreement made on the matter.
 
that not the case. maimonades or rambam is quoted here. he stated the conditions on which ben joseph would come and do what. he was also martyred for his faith if im correct.
 
that not the case. maimonades or rambam is quoted here. he stated the conditions on which ben joseph would come and do what. he was also martyred for his faith if im correct.


We/they need to believe in The Jesus of the scriptures.

The One in the Prophets, The Law and the Psalms.

Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me." Luke 24:44

The reason the Jews missed it when He came is because of trying to follow the very same things you are talking about, according to this Rabbi or that Rabbi or this sage or that one!

The writings and traditions of men.



JLB
 
that is the truth but i did this thread with the futurist in mind. they have their ideas and Jesus has a plan. the church teaches that he is coming to do what they say pretty darn close. I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT.

read up on moshiac ben david from chabad.org and compare to the pre-mil position. its nearly word for word.
 
that is the truth but i did this thread with the futurist in mind. they have their ideas and Jesus has a plan. the church teaches that he is coming to do what they say pretty darn close. I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT.

read up on moshiac ben david from chabad.org and compare to the pre-mil position. its nearly word for word.


Pre-mil, futurist... All man made phrase's.

Just the scriptures!


JLB
 
Why waste your time following the advice of men who reject Jesus as Messiah!

It doesn't get anymore antichrist that that!


If you want to follow after an antichrist spirit, that's on you!


JLB
 
so is the idea of the ac. the ac isnt in revalation. a beast cant be the ac. a beast is a goverment. the idea of modern pre-mil isnt even that old. nor isreal's return and the seven year trib.

martyr makes no mention of isreal being around as a nation when the messiah comes. he does a third temple would be built but not whom would build it.

CHAPTER LXXX -- THE OPINION OF JUSTIN WITH REGARD TO THE REIGN OF A THOUSAND YEARS. SEVERAL CATHOLICS REJECT IT.
And Trypho to this replied, "I remarked to you sir, that you are very anxious to be safe in all respects, since you cling to the Scriptures. But tell me, do you really admit that this place, Jerusalem, shall be rebuilt; and do you expect your people to be gathered together, and made joyful with Christ and the patriarchs, and the prophets, both the men of our nation, and other proselytes who joined them before your Christ came? or have you given way, and admitted this in order to have the appearance of worsting us in the controversies?" Then I answered, "I am not so miserable a fellow, Trypho, as to say one thing and think another. I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion, and[believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise. Moreover, I pointed out to you that some who are called Christians, but are godless, impious heretics, teach doctrines that are in every way blasphemous, atheistical, and foolish. But that you may know that I do not say this before you alone, I shall draw up a statement, so far as I can, of all the arguments which have passed between us; in which I shall record myself as admitting the very same things which I admit to you. For I choose to follow not men or men's doctrines, but God and the doctrines[delivered] by Him. For if you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this[truth], and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians, even as one, if he would rightly consider it, would not admit that the Sadducees, or similar sects of Genist , Meristae,Gelilaeans, Hellenists, Pharisees, Baptists, are Jews(do not hear me impatiently when I tell you what I think), but are[only] called Jews and children of Abraham, worshipping God with the lips, as God Himself declared, but the heart was far from Him. But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.

CHAPTER CXXXV -- CHRIST IS KING OF ISRAEL, AND CHRISTIANS ARE THE ISRAELITIC RACE. "And when Scripture says, 'I am the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, who have made known Israel your King,' will you not understand that truly Christ is the everlasting King? For you are aware that Jacob the son of Isaac was never a king. And therefore Scripture again, explaining to us, says what king is meant by Jacob and Israel: 'Jacob is my Servant, I will uphold Him; and Israel is mine Elect, my soul shall receive Him. I have given Him my Spirit; and He shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not cry, and His voice shall not be heard without. The bruised reed He shall not break, and the smoking flax He shall not quench, until He shall bring forth judgment to victory. He shall shine, and shall not be broken, until He set judgment on the earth. And in His name shall the Gentiles trust.' Then is it Jacob the patriarch in whom the Gentiles and yourselves shall trust? or is it not Christ? As, therefore, Christ is the Israel and the Jacob, even so we, who have been quarried out from the bowels of Christ, are the true Israelitic race. But let us attend rather to the very word: 'And I will bring forth,' He says, 'the seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah: and it shall inherit My holy mountain; and Mine Elect and My servants shall possess the inheritance, and shall dwell there; and there shall be folds of flocks in the thicket, and the valley of Achor shall be a resting-place of cattle for the people who have sought Me. But as for you, who forsake Me, and forget My holy mountain, and prepare a table for demons, and fill out drink for the demon, I shall give you to the sword. You shall all fall with a slaughter; for I called you, and you hearkened not, and did evil before me, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.' Such are the words of Scripture; understand, therefore, that the seed of Jacob now referred to is something else, and not, as may be supposed, spoken of your people. For it is not possible for the seed of Jacob to leave an entrance for the descendants of Jacob, or for [God] to have accepted the very same persons whom He had reproached with unfitness for the inheritance, and promise it to them again; but as there the prophet says, 'And now, O house of Jacob, come and let us walk in the light of the Lord; for He has sent away His people, the house of Jacob, because their land was full, as at the first, of soothsayers and divinations;' even so it is necessary for us here to observe that there are two seeds of Judah, and two races, as there are two houses of Jacob: the one begotten by blood and flesh, the other by faith and the Spirit.

CHAPTER CXXIII -- RIDICULOUS INTERPRETATIONS OF THE JEWS. CHRISTIANS ARE THE TRUE ISRAEL.
"As, therefore, all these latter prophecies refer to Christ and the nations, you should believe that the former refer to Him and them in like manner. For the proselytes have no need of a covenant, if, since there is one and the same law imposed on all that are circumcised, the Scripture speaks about them thus: 'And the stranger shall also be joined with them, and shall be joined to the house of Jacob;' and because the proselyte, who is circumcised that he may have access to the people, becomes like one of themselves, while we who have been deemed worthy to be called a people are yet Gentiles, because we have not been circumcised. Besides, it is ridiculous for you to imagine that the eyes of the proselytes are to be opened while your own are not, and that you be understood as blind and deaf while they are enlightened. And it will be still more ridiculous for you, if you say that the law has been given to the nations, but you have not known it. For you would have stood in awe of God's wrath, and would not have been lawless, wandering sons; being much afraid of hearing God always say, 'Children in whom is no faith. And who are blind, but my servants? and deaf, but they that rule over them? And the servants of God have been made blind. You see often, but have not observed; your ears have been opened, and you have not heard.' Is God's commendation of you honourable? and is God's testimony seemly for His servants? You are not ashamed though you often hear these words. You do not tremble at God's threats, for you are a people foolish and hard-hearted. 'Therefore, behold, I will proceed to remove this people,' saith the Lord;' and I will remove them, and destroy the wisdom of the wise, and hide the understanding of the prudent.' Deservedly too: for you are neither wise nor prudent, but crafty and unscrupulous; wise only to do evil, but utterly incompetent to know the hidden counsel of God, or the faithful covenant of the Lord, or to find out the everlasting paths. 'Therefore, saith the Lord, I will raise up to Israel and to Judah the seed of men and the seed of beasts.' And by Isaiah He speaks thus concerning another Israel: 'In that day shall there be a third Israel among the Assyrians and the Egyptians, blessed in the land which the Lord of Sabaoth hath blessed, saying, blessed shall my people in Egypt and in Assyria be, and Israel mine inheritance.' Since then God blesses this people, and calls them Israel, and declares them to be His inheritance, how is it that you repent not of the deception you practise on yourselves, as if you alone were the Israel, and of execrating the people whom God has blessed? For when He speaks to Jerusalem and its environs, He thus added: 'And I will beget men upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall inherit you, and you shall be a possession for them; and you shall be no longer bereaved of them.'"
"What, then?" says Trypho; "are you Israel? and speaks He such things of you?" "If, indeed," I replied to him, "we had not entered into a lengthy discussion on these topics, I might have doubted whether you ask this question in ignorance; but since we have brought the matter to a conclusion by demonstration and with your assent, I do not believe that you are ignorant of what I have just said, or desire again mere contention, but that you are urging me to exhibit the same proof to these men." And in compliance with the assent expressed in his eyes, I continued: "Again in Isaiah, if you have ears to hear it, God, speaking of Christ in parable, calls Him Jacob and Israel. He speaks thus: 'Jacob is my servant, I will uphold Him; Israel is mine elect, I will put my Spirit upon Him, and He shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not strive, nor cry, neither shall any one hear His voice in the street: a bruised reed He shall not break, and smoking flax He shall not quench; but He shall bring forth judgment to truth: He shall shine, and shall not be broken till He have set judgment on the earth. And in His name shall the Gentiles trust.' As therefore from the one man Jacob, who was surnamed Israel, all your nation has been called Jacob and Israel; so we from Christ, who begat us unto God, like Jacob, and Israel, and Judah, and Joseph, and David, are called and are the true sons of God, and keep the commandments of Christ."


For Isaiah spake thus concerning this space of a thousand years: 'For there shall be the new heaven and the new earth, and the former shall not be remembered, or come into their heart; but they shall find joy and gladness in it, which things I create. For, Behold, I make Jerusalem a rejoicing, and My people a joy; and I shall rejoice over Jerusalem, and be glad over My I people. And the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, or the voice of crying. And there shall be no more there a person of immature years, or an old man who shall not fulfil his days. For the young man shall be an hundred years old; but the sinner who dies an hundred years old, he shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and shall themselves inhabit them; and they shall plant vines, and shall themselves eat the produce of them, and drink the wine. They shall not build, and others inhabit; they shall not plant, and others eat. For according to the days of the tree of life shall be the days of my people; the works of their toil shall abound. Mine elect shall not toil fruitlessly, or beget children to be cursed; for they shall be a seed righteous and blessed by the Lord, and their offspring with them. And it shall come to pass, that before they call I will hear; while they are still speaking, I shall say, What is it? Then shall the wolves and the lambs feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox; but the serpent[shall eat] earth as bread. They shall not hurt or maltreat each other on the holy mountain, i saith the Lord.' Now we have understood that the expression used among these words, 'According to the days of the tree[of life] shall be the days of my people; the works of their toil shall abound' obscurely predicts a thousand years. For as Adam was told that in the nay fie ate of the tree he would die, we know that he did not complete a thousand years. We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, 'The day of the Lord is as a thousand years,' is connected with this subject. And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place. Just as our Lord also said, 'They shall neither marry nor be given in marriage, but shall be equal to the angels, the children of the God of the resurrection.'
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html

apparently the church is lost because 100 years after John they are teaching that the christians are isreal!

nothing like today's church . show me where you get your ideas. since john-clement-marytr is how close this to the real deal.apperently they didnt read their bible.
 
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Why waste your time following the advice of men who reject Jesus as Messiah!

It doesn't get anymore antichrist that that!


If you want to follow after an antichrist spirit, that's on you!


JLB
who said that. i read up on jewry because i want to. its no different then if one wants to read and reach muslim they get the quran.

since you mention man made doctrines? where is it in the bible? the word trinity that is? show me please.
 
The Pharisees in leadership at the time of Jesus were actually part of the secret societies. They committed the only sin that Jesus said there was no forgiveness for when they denied the holy spirit by telling Jesus that his miracles were from the power of Satan. They thought that because that is where whey got their powers from. They just thought Jesus was better at it then they were. Punishment for exposing the secrets of the secret societies to common people was a painful death which they made sure that Jesus got. This Jewish leadership are now call the Cabala.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/3878-cabala#anchor65

The Gnostics that also were attempting to rise were also part of the secret societies. The-Nag-Hammadi-Scriptures for instance, after reading would leave you doubting that Jesus came back to life, that he was a deity at all. Also it could leave you questioning all of the cannonical scriptures. Also that Jesus had sexual relation with Mary, and that God should be worshipped as a father and mother, amongst other issues. Within that library, what do you know, Socrates writings. Also a student of the secret society schools in egypt.

Also Saint Irenaeus of Lyons Against Heresies, five books, go into great detail of how bad these Gnostics were.
 
oh please the pharisees werent part of that. and the caballah is older the time of christ. it comes from the oral traditions.

why 666 is from the gemetria. that is what its for it alludes to a specific name.

there's two types of caballah.easter and western. estearn is older then the tanach itsself. the western is from the 3rd century.

opps the septuagiant use by luke also had the apochrypha. if that lxx is bad then the luke, acts and hebrews is gone as well. hebrews has wording very close to the lxx.
 
you went too a jewish encylopedia and posted that . in it i read and glanced.

luke the apostle and the writers of hebrews both use the lxx. yet per your link.

More instructive still for the study of the development of cabalistic lore is the Book of Jubilees written under King John Hyrcanus (see Charles, "The Book of Jubilees," 1902, Introduction, pp. lviii. et seq.)—which also refers to the writings of Jared, Cainan, and Noah, and presents Abraham as the renewer, and Levi as the permanent guardian, of these ancient writings (ch. iv. 18, viii. 3, x. 13; compare Jellinek, "B. H." iii. 155, xii. 27, xxi. 10, xlv. 16)—because it offers, as early as a thousand years prior to the supposed date of the "Sefer Yeẓirah," a cosmogony based upon the twenty-two letters of the Hebrew alphabet, and connected with Jewish chronology and Messianology, while at the same time insisting upon the heptad as the holy number rather than upon the decadic system adopted by the later haggadists and the "Sefer Yeẓirah" (ch. ii. 23; compare Midr. Tadshe vi. and Charles's note, vi. 29 et seq.; Epstein, in "Rev. Et. Juives," xxii. 11; and regarding the number seven compare Ethiopic Enoch, lxxvii. 4 et seq. [see Charles's note]; Lev. R. xxix.; Philo, "De Opificios Mundi," 80-43, and Ab. v. 1-3; Ḥag. 12a). The Pythagorean idea of the creative powers of numbers and letters, upon which the "Sefer Yeẓirah" is founded, and which was known in tannaitic times—compare Rab's saying:"Bezalel knew how to combine [
V03p458001.jpg
] the letters by which heaven and earth were created" (Ber. 55a), and the saying of R. Judah b. Ilai (Men. 29b), quoted, with similar sayings of Rab, in Bacher, "Ag. Bab. Amor." pp. 18, 19—is here proved to be an old cabalistic conception. In fact, the belief in the magic power of the letters of the Tetragrammaton and other names of the Deity (compare Enoch, lxi. 3 et seq.; Prayer of Manasses; Ḳid. 71a; Eccl. R. iii. 11; Yer. Ḥag. ii. 77c) seems to have originated in Chaldea (see Lenormant, "Chaldean Magic," pp. 29, 43). Whatever, then, the theurgic Cabala was, which, under the name of "Sefer (or "Hilkot" Yeẓirah," induced Babylonian rabbis of the fourth century to "create a calf by magic" (Sanh. 65b, 67b; Zunz, "G. V." 2d ed., p. 174, by a false rationalism ignores or fails to account for a simple though strange fact!), an ancient tradition seems to have coupled the name of this theurgic "Sefer Yeẓirah" with the name of Abraham as one accredited with the possession of esoteric wisdom and theurgic powers (see Abraham, Apocalypse of, and Abraham, Testament of; Beer, "Das Leben Abrahams," pp. 207 et seq.; and especially Testament of Abraham, Recension B, vi., xviii.; compare Kohler, in "Jew. Quart. Rev." vii. 584, note). As stated by Jellinek ("Beiträge zur Kabbalah," i. 3), the very fact that Abraham, and not a Talmudical hero like Akiba, is introduced in the "Sefer Yeẓirah," at the close, as possessor of the Wisdom of the Alphabet, indicates an old tradition, if not the antiquity of the book itself.
The "wonders of the Creative Wisdom" can also be traced from the "Sefer Yeẓirah," back to Ben Sira, l.c.; Enoch, xlii. 1, xlviii. 1, lxxxii. 2, xcii. 1; Slavonic Enoch, xxx. 8, xxxiii. 3 (see Charles's note for further parallels); IV Esdras xiv. 46; Soṭah xv. 3; and the Merkabah-travels to Test. Abraham, x.; Test. Job, xi. (see Kohler, in Kohut Memorial Volume, pp. 282-288); and the Baruch Apocalypse throughout, and even II Macc. vii. 22, 28, betray cabalistic traditions and

also the essenes are the ones that gave us the masoretic text.

http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/.../the-masoretic-text-and-the-dead-sea-scrolls/

A third faction, the Essenes, emerged out of disgust with the other two. This sect believed the others had corrupted the city and the Temple. They moved out of Jerusalem and lived a monastic life in the desert, adopting strict dietary laws and a commitment to celibacy.

The Essenes are particularly interesting to scholars because they are believed to be an offshoot of the group that lived in Qumran, near the Dead Sea. In 1947, a Bedouin shepherd stumbled into a cave containing various ancient artifacts and jars containing manuscripts describing the beliefs of the sect and events of the time.

The most important documents, often only parchment fragments that had to be meticulously restored, were the earliest known copies of the Old Testament. The similarity of the substance of the material found in the scrolls to that in the modern scriptures has confirmed the authenticity of the Bible used today
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/sadducees_pharisees_essenes.html

thus i considered that link of yours most anti-christian.
the caballah isnt a leadership and chassidics are into some consertive values. i do read their views on abortion and gay rights as chabad.org is chassidic.

i cant post that fact. they are anti-abortion and gay rights and pro marriage.
 
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