Who is Jesus?

[4afaithfulone]

One day back in 2004 or so. I was watching a Christian program where they were asking an unbelieving Jewish man why many of them could not accept Jesus as their Messiah. I listened to hear his response in anticipation for I did not know why.

He said, because the Christian's worship pictures of a man calling it an image of God. If he were God, he would not allow us to worship these images, He told us not to worship any images as God!

This is true I thought to myself, We do not have actual pictures of Jesus, so the statues and stained glass, portraits etc.. that we ALL recognize as Jesus, even if you are not religious, are nothing more than man made idols to have something to look at to worship, let alone God who is Spirit and in heaven. They are idolatry. Jesus did have a flesh body made for him, but we have no idea of what he looked like.
2 Cor 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
KJV

RIGHT there, God showed me that Jesus is not the Almighty God, he is THE WORD of God whom became Flesh.
Isaiah, Zechariah and Jeremiah were prophets who brought the Word of God to man's ears... But Jesus is THE WORD OF GOD, the Word of life that was manifest in the flesh.

1John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)KJV


The Word is the Light of the world and when God said"LET THERE BE LIGHT" He was sending forth JESUS whom is THE WORD whom He creates all this through, by and with and the Light of the world in Gen.1:3:
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. KJV

The sun and moon were not created until the 4th day. They are not to be worshipped as God either for God created the sun and the moon by Jesus, His Word the Light of the world and men.

Everywhere in the OT that you see it say "The word of the LORD came" it is speaking of Jesus for he is The Word whom the Father sends to us. You will notice sometimes in the Old Testament, it says Lord God(Jesus the Son) and sometimes it says LORD God(Father God) such as this example where Abram addresses the Word of the LORD as Lord God:

Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?

3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.

 

[OzSpen]

RIGHT there, God showed me that Jesus is not the Almighty God, he is THE WORD of God whom became Flesh.
Isaiah, Zechariah and Jeremiah were prophets who brought the Word of God to man's ears... But Jesus is THE WORD OF GOD, the Word of life that was manifest in the flesh.

4a,

So are you saying that you do not believe that Jesus is a member of the Trinitarian Almighty God? Are you a non-Trinitarian?

Oz

 

[4afaithfulone]

OzSpen,
Read this below and tell me what you see in the underlined sections:
Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
7 And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.
8 And he said, Lord GOD, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?
KJV
Judg 3:10 And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him, and he judged Israel, and went out to war: and the LORD delivered Chushan-rishathaim king of Mesopotamia into his hand; and his hand prevailed against Chushan-rishathaim.
KJV
Do you see three separate ones, but they all are considered God?
LORD, Lord GOD, the Spirit?
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
KJV
We can always believe that the Spirit is part of God, but somehow we always want to deny The Word as part of Him~

 

[OzSpen]

OzSpen,
Read this below and tell me what you see in the underlined sections:
Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
7 And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.
8 And he said, Lord GOD, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?
KJV
Judg 3:10 And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him, and he judged Israel, and went out to war: and the LORD delivered Chushan-rishathaim king of Mesopotamia into his hand; and his hand prevailed against Chushan-rishathaim.
KJV
Do you see three separate ones, but they all are considered God?
LORD, Lord GOD, the Spirit?
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
KJV
We can always believe that the Spirit is part of God, but somehow we always want to deny The Word as part of Him~

4a,

You didn't answer my 2 questions. When you do this, you switch the topic and you are using a red herring logical fallacy. We cannot have a logical discussion when you do that.

I propose my 2 questions to you again: Are you saying that you do not believe that Jesus is a member of the Trinitarian Almighty God? Are you a non-Trinitarian?

Or do you believe in Tri-theism (3 Gods in the Godhead)?

Oz

 

[turnorburn]

The Lord wasn't finished with Abram yet he went on to say..

Genesis 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

tob

 

[OzSpen]

The Lord wasn't finished with Abram yet he went on to say..

Genesis 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

tob

tob,

I'm asking 4a about her view of the Trinity.

Oz

 

[4afaithfulone]

4a,

You didn't answer my 2 questions. When you do this, you switch the topic and you are using a red herring logical fallacy. We cannot have a logical discussion when you do that.

I propose my 2 questions to you again: Are you saying that you do not believe that Jesus is a member of the Trinitarian Almighty God? Are you a non-Trinitarian?

Or do you believe in Tri-theism (3 Gods in the Godhead)?

Oz

Is it possible that you could not see that I was showing in scripture that there is the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are all 3 one God. I do not name it as a label of belief, just as I don't believe in denominations, for there is just one Word and Truth, not many versions of the truth. I don't know why that is important to you for me to say.
I think I made it even more clear by showing you the scriptures which are more true than what I say, that the Father, The Son(The Word) and the Holy Spirit are all three mentioned in the Bible as one God according to the Bible?
I showed you that the names Lord whom is Jesus The Word, LORD who is the Father and Spirit are in the Old testament and they all 3 considered God when they appear in the Bible. Didn't you see how the LORD came to Abram, yet Abram called him Lord GOD meaning Jesus the Christ of God or The Word? That is not the only place, there are many places, that this occurs yet no one thinks that it is another god, but understands it is the one true God.
If you believe that the Spirit is God, then why wouldn't The Word be God?The Father is Head over His Word, so Jesus the Son is under the Father as is the Holy Ghost. They are a family unit,
Do you believe that Jesus is the head of his body and that we are all one with him as children of God and joint heirs with him and that when the Fathers sees us, He sees us as Jesus hidden under the blood?
Hopefully my answer satisfies your question, because that is all I can give you. Please, Let's let scripture speak the truth, not try to pinpoint me down to what I or any man thinks.
Ps 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. KJV
1 Cor 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
KJV
1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
KJV

 

[4afaithfulone]

4a,

So are you saying that you do not believe that Jesus is a member of the Trinitarian Almighty God? Are you a non-Trinitarian?

Oz

Do you mean do I believe that Jesus is the Father? if so, I believe he is the exact representative of the Father if the Father had flesh, but He is Spirit, and Jesus tells us he is not, for the Father was in heaven when He sent His Word to be forsaken on the cross. Jesus also said that the Father is greater than I, He said that the Father seeks the worshippers, he said that he did not come to seek the glory for himself, that the Father is the one doing the works. Jesus is The Word who is on the Right hand of the Father, whom the Father uses to create all things. He is the right hand of God.
The Father did not die on the cross, He sent His Word to be forsaken so that we could belong to His new covenant in Christ.

More scripture for a more sure Word:
John 14:28
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
KJV
John 8:49-50
49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.
KJV
John 4:23-24
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
KJV
John 16:13-16
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.
KJV
John 15:26-27
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.
KJV

 

[Eugene]

OzSpen,
Read this below and tell me what you see in the underlined sections:
Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
7 And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.
8 And he said, Lord GOD, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?
KJV
Judg 3:10 And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him, and he judged Israel, and went out to war: and the LORD delivered Chushan-rishathaim king of Mesopotamia into his hand; and his hand prevailed against Chushan-rishathaim.
KJV
Do you see three separate ones, but they all are considered God?
LORD, Lord GOD, the Spirit?
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
KJV
We can always believe that the Spirit is part of God, but somehow we always want to deny The Word as part of Him~

I agree with OzSpen; what a dodge. You are posting in Christianity & Other Religions. Are you into JW's or Mormonism beliefs, or is there some particular church you are affiliated with? To me John the Baptist announced Jesus as LORD (Jehovah) in Isa 40:3, and Jesus proclaims that in Isa 43:11, I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour, followed by Acts 4:11,12.
Act 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

As for the Holy Spirit being God, we read in Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead . . , and Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus . .

My thoughts.

 

[4afaithfulone]

The Lord wasn't finished with Abram yet he went on to say..

Genesis 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

tob

I agree with OzSpen; what a dodge. You are posting in Christianity & Other Religions. Are you into JW's or Mormonism beliefs, or is there some particular church you are affiliated with? To me John the Baptist announced Jesus as LORD (Jehovah) in Isa 40:3, and Jesus proclaims that in Isa 43:11, I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour, followed by Acts 4:11,12.
Act 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

As for the Holy Spirit being God, we read in Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead . . , and Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus . .

My thoughts.

The only dodging done was around the scriptures that showed were both Lord God and LORD as the same God speaking to Abram. Is not Jesus known as Lord and the Word?
Why would you dodge such important truths?

 

[Eugene]

The only dodging done was around the scriptures that showed were both Lord God and LORD as the same God speaking to Abram. Is not Jesus known as Lord and the Word?
Why would you dodge such important truths?

Couldn't you just answer the question? Do you agree with the following? Again I ask what type church assembly you attend.
Our Father is God (LORD or Jehovah)100%.
Jesus is God (LORD or Jehovah) 100%.
The Holy Spirit is God, the God of peace 100%.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Jesus is God, but not the Father.

God is Love, Light and holiness. In God, the Father is Almighty......Jesus under the Father......believers under the Son.

Jesus sits on the right hand of the Father.

 

[Eugene]

Jesus is God, but not the Father.

God is Love, Light and holiness. In God, the Father is Almighty......Jesus under the Father......believers under the Son.

Jesus sits on the right hand of the Father.

Thanks LovethroughDove. Jesus chose that place, but will again have His own throne according to Rev 4:2.
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.
Jesus will again pick up the reigns of total power in His Day.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

 

[4afaithfulone]

This is my city of birth, and the church I am of:
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
KJV
Can I ask what country & church do you pledge your allegiance to?
Let's just say:
If the scripture says it is the Father or LORD, YHWH, Jehovah speaking, I believe Him to be God talking
If the scripture says it is Jesus, Lord, Lord God, Yeshua, Messiah is talking, I believe it as God talking
If the Holy Spirit is talking to me, I believe it to be God talking
I am not one who denies the Word as God, I do say that we are not to worship any so called image of Jesus as and image of God, for Jesus said no man has seen God, except the Son.
The Bible says that Jesus is the Word, so why is that so hard to accept that I believe him to be the Word of God and not the Father, nor the Spirit, yet God?
If you believe Jesus is the Father who seeks our worship, then are you GOD or the son of God?
I am to place God's Word above everything, and so is everyone, so he is God, yet the Father is Head of His Word.
So that is what I believe, take it as you like for that is all I can tell you. Jesus is my Lord if that is your concern.

 

[Eugene]

This is my city of birth, and the church I am of:
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
KJV
Can I ask what country & church do you pledge your allegiance to?
Let's just say:
If the scripture says it is the Father or LORD, YHWH, Jehovah speaking, I believe Him to be God talking
If the scripture says it is Jesus, Lord, Lord God, Yeshua, Messiah is talking, I believe it as God talking
If the Holy Spirit is talking to me, I believe it to be God talking
I am not one who denies the Word as God, I do say that we are not to worship any so called image of Jesus as and image of God, for Jesus said no man has seen God, except the Son.
The Bible says that Jesus is the Word, so why is that so hard to accept that I believe him to be the Word of God and not the Father, nor the Spirit, yet God?
If you believe Jesus is the Father who seeks our worship, then are you GOD or the son of God?
I am to place God's Word above everything, and so is everyone, so he is God, yet the Father is Head of His Word.
So that is what I believe, take it as you like for that is all I can tell you. Jesus is my Lord if that is your concern.

I give up; thanks anyway.

 

[4afaithfulone]

I give up; thanks anyway.

I am truly sorry Eugene, I don't mean to be rude or problematic, but very serious. It is just that I don't feel that it can be narrowed down to a word such as this or that. I believe in the One true God, but I also believe there are 3 persons that are the same God as I tried to show. My opinion or any ones opinion is nothing, the Word is the truth and that is what I stand on.
Blessings to you,
Diana

 

[LovethroughDove]

Thanks
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
QUOTE]
[B][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 255)]Mine sounds different[/COLOR][/B]. Philippians 2:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God

 

[OzSpen]

Is it possible that you could not see that I was showing in scripture that there is the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are all 3 one God.

4a,

I'm trying to have a reasonable conversation with you. That first question that you asked in your post is confusing in the language you use. You state of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost that they 'are all 3 one God'. Please unpack that for me so I know which God you are talking about and what 'all 3' means.

Oz

 

[4afaithfulone]

Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
KJV
God is known by His Word,and exactly as His Word, just as all men also are know this way. That is why Jesus thought it not robbery to be equal with God, for the Father and His Word are one in the same. And every knew shall bow to God's Word in the end for that is his name.
If we look up, we shall see the Word at work in the clouds as the lightning, rain, hail comes down.
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
KJV

Matt 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
KJV
Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV
Do we recognize our Lord in the clouds in the wrath of the Father, we shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye and caught up to meet him and them in the clouds

1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
KJV

 

[OzSpen]

The only dodging done was around the scriptures that showed were both Lord God and LORD as the same God speaking to Abram. Is not Jesus known as Lord and the Word?
Why would you dodge such important truths?

4a,

I think Eugene is referring to your dodging my questions about the Trinity. Do you believe in the Trinity and what is your biblical understanding of what it means?

Oz