Who made God?

Discussion in 'Apologetics' started by OzSpen, Feb 22, 2017.

  1. OzSpen

    OzSpen Member

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    You asked: 'Also, I think the title of this thread is a little off.
    "Who Made God?"
    If anyone made God, THEY would be God'.

    I'm not the only one asking this question. I've heard it from agnostics and atheists in Australia. Ravi Zacharias, Norman Geisler and some other apologists have heard it to the point where they have published on it:

    [​IMG]

    Now to your question:

    But there is still your proposition that he always existed, to which the atheist says, So what! That proves nothing to demonstrate who created God. That's circular reasoning. You presume your God is eternal and you conclude he is eternal. That's begging the question.

    As for eternal, you believe it; I believe it, but the atheist doesn't. How can we get him/her to the point of discussing eternal. Often the discussion goes to the universe being eternal, but science is confirming that the universe had a beginning. Whether one calls it the Big Bang or bara (God created out of nothing, Gen 1:1), science joins Christianity in confirming there was a beginning to the universe. How it happened is where many disagree.

    Where does Scripture affirm that the universe is eternal, has no end? I understood that we look forward to new heavens and a new earth where righteousness dwells (2 Pet 3:13).

    So are you concluding with a 'faith' position that you accept the God revealed in the Bible as the true God. I can see the atheist say that's a 'leap of faith' position that he/she is not prepared to take because he/she is a rational human being and that doesn't make sense in a reasonable conversation.

    Oz
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2017
  2. OzSpen

    OzSpen Member

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    Have you seen this God to know he is a fact? I'm not asking whether God exists. The topic is 'Who made God?' or 'Who created God?'

    I have suggested an answer to my question, but that has been part of this discussion. I'm not engaged in a hypothetical question by an atheist. I presented a real question that atheists sometimes ask me.

    No hyphetical anything here, mate!

    You haven't told me yet where you live in Australia.

    Oz
     
  3. OzSpen

    OzSpen Member

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    Why don't you take a listen to Kent Hovind's short response to the philosopher who asked: 'Where did God come from?'
     
  4. wondering

    wondering Member

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    Hi Oz,

    Yes, we've all heard this question!
    If only we could explain how God got started, MAYBE the atheist would believe in Him. Know what I think? He wouldn't. As Ravi Zacharias has said, you could bring an atheist to heaven for 10 days and let him look around and ask questions, and when he came back to earth he would still doubt he had ever been there.
    (I like RZ)

    Also, I didn't explain myself properly regarding the universe. When saying that it's eternal what I meant is that it has no end...it seems as though it's eternal in that it just goes on and on. We cannot see where it ends.

    The big bang would explain Let There Be Light. I've read that if the big bang is true, then the force required to cause the explosion would be so great as to immediately cause an implosion. So the very fact that the explosion then continued to expand is a miracle in itself. Scripture does not speak to this, I'm referring to science here.
    Scripture affirms only that there was a beginning. But what beginning? The beginning of everything? The beginning of our earth so that we could occupy it?
    This is not clear to me and really is of no importance to me.

    I believe my end point is that if someone does not believe God even exists, how could we convince that person He existed forever!! I think there is no way.

    You know me, I'm practical and not very intellectual - I believe that a person must experience God in order to believe in Him. In John 3 Jesus tells Nicodemus that the the wind blows where it will. This makes me realize that God is like the wind - we cannot see Him, but we see His effects. We see Him affecting humanity. Of course, the answer will be that it's all psychological and we need something to lean on.
    Seems to me you cannot win.

    Seems to me that Dawkins has won the battle. Whether or not he wins the war remains to be seen. RZ speaks of a well known atheist that now is not sure of himself anymore although he is not Christian. However this atheist did say that if God exists, He would have to be the Christian God. This would be Anthony Flew.

    In the meantime, science is lining up with the bible!
    Big Bang
    Bara
    Same thing... Except Jews and Christians have known this for almost 4,000 years and science is just now coming to understand this.

    This might be a good reason to trust God/the bible when speaking to an atheist.
    But, again, I doubt it would work.

    We do, however, have to keep pounding away.
    I met a couple in a store. She's a devout Catholic and he's an atheist. I asked him what he thinks happens after death. He said NOTHING. I asked him "What if you're wrong?" They kind of look at you like you're a bit batty and tell you they're sure and don't care to think about it.

    It's up to the Holy Spirit - but the physical world is so palpable...
     
  5. calvin

    calvin Member

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    calvin here,
    Okay Cobber, it read like a hypothetical to me but if not it makes no difference to me.
    I still think you answered the question well.
    BTW have you come across 'the irreverent Mr. Black' I think he might be up around the sunshine coast somewhere, or 'we are star dust' in your travels?
     
  6. jasonc

    jasonc Member

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    Flew has since passed away


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_Flew
     
  7. wondering

    wondering Member

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    Oz,
    This above post is what I was talking about.
    How could something ALWAYS have existed?
    The human brain cannot understand this.

    So...
    The athesit has two choices:

    1. §Either a supreme being made everything
    or
    2. Everything just came about on its own.

    No. 1 is easier to accept.

    Who made God?
    I repeat (not having read the book) if anything or anyone made God THEY would be God.

    The first cause is God.
    Rattle the brain: What caused the first cause?
    You know this already....thus No. 1 !!
     
  8. wondering

    wondering Member

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    Thanks Jason.
    I have to leave the house in 5 minutes.
    Did he end up becoming a Christian??

    This would maybe be helpful with an atheist.
    Someone of Flew's caliber, coming to believe that God exists!

    Later...
     
  9. OzSpen

    OzSpen Member

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    To my knowledge, Antony Flew was a Deist at the time of his death. You can read about his change of mind in There Is No/A God: How the world's most notorious atheist changed his mind (2007, Harper One).
     
  10. jasonc

    jasonc Member

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    No died as a diest
     
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  11. selihah

    selihah Member

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    Some say science has already discovered God, they just don't know it yet :biggrin2. What science calls Quantum Fluctuations I and others call Yehovah both can even be defined in the same manner. Both are eternal, both created something from nothing, both are non-physical, both act upon the physical, both pre-date the universe.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Not_Now.Soon

    Not_Now.Soon Member

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    If those theories of quantum machines are right, then they do hold that simularities. But God is still greater. Only one of those two spoke the universe into existence. Only one shows authority over the universe, and all that is in it. In the end Quantum fluctuations, if they exist, are still only part of the universe. God is greater still.
     
  13. OzSpen

    OzSpen Member

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    selihah,

    Only One pre-dates the universe. He is the One who inspired this writing: 'In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth' (Gen 1:1 ESV).

    Deut 33:27 (ESV) states, 'The eternal God is your dwelling place...'

    1 Tim 1:17 (ESV), 'To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen'.

    There is only one who is eternal and he is God.

    Who created Quantum Fluctuations I?

    Oz
     
  14. selihah

    selihah Member

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    Let me make it easier for you. When an atheist says to you it wasnt God but Quantum Flucuations that created the universe. You can respond and tell them that both God and Quantum Fluctuation can be defined in the same manner above.

    Interestingly too is that Gods words He spoke at creation are an audible articulation of his thoughts. According to some in the theoretical sciences the make-up Quantum Fluctuation they think is more akin to mind stuff than anything else. As professor George Wald stated "It is mind that has composed the physical universe that breeds life..."

    its seems to me science and Torah are beginning to walk together.
     
  15. Not_Now.Soon

    Not_Now.Soon Member

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    If that works for you in your testimony go for it. I don't understand the science behind quantum fluctions, and therefore I can't speak about it in a meaningful way. But that said, I might not use it for the origin of the universe kind of discussion. I've become hesitant to name an aspect of a theory to how God works. Expecially if the theory is only theory without means to validate it. Quantum machinists right now is full of awesome observe rations and calculations but seems to fall into controversery with regard to agreed upon theories, or validated theories. Right now (as far as I'm aware) scientist seem to be reaching at straws with regard to finding explainations.
     
  16. calvin

    calvin Member

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    Hello calvin here,
    the question: "Who made God?" necessarily admits that God is. And God by definition is eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient.
    It is a question that answers itself....IMO
     
  17. Lee2000

    Lee2000 Member

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    Hi Ozpen

    i live in melbourne australia

    when people ask me who made God i say God calls himself the Alpha and Omega without beginning and without end

    if they accept it or reject it, that is there right

    it is not my role to convict people that have genuine or doubtful questions

    my role is to plant and water seeds and it is the Holy Spirit that convicts people of there condition and brings them to a point where they are ready to receive Jesus if its days weeks months or years later it is Gods that gives them increase or understanding

    i don't need to know all the mysteries of the earth and the universe to be qualified to share the good news because salvation is received by faith not be facts proof or how much evidence i can provide to satisfy the persons quires

    I don't put limitations on Gods ability to reach people because i cant provide them with satisfactory answers

    i embrace there questions and answer them according to the word of God because the word of God is truth and it is the truth that sets people free

    God is Spirit he is not organic matter or made up of molecules or energy by a mans standards intellect or comprehension that can be measured studied examined and placed in a box until man has exhausted his resources and theories about who God is and where God come from and how God was made and why God did or didn't do this and that etc

    Even if we knew all the answers to the mysteries of the world and the universe it wouldn't make a difference because people still have the right or free will to accept or reject salvation

    our job is to evangelize depend rely and trust upon Jesus it is.... Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’ saith the Lord of hosts. Zechariah 4:6

    this one of my favorite my scriptures and always amuses me when non christian s explain how God fits into there belief system....... For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 1 Corinthians 1.22

    another words God uses the simplicity of preaching his word to save people because a person has to humble them selves and exercise faith to receive Jesus, and this contradicts peoples intellect comprehension and theories because they don't want to accept something invisible they cant see feel hear smell or touch that would make them look like an idiot lol

    That is the test to ascertain if man will trust in God or in himself

    Jesus said believe and you will see and the world says when i see it i will believe it

    that is the difference between faith and fact/doubt

    Peace
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017 at 7:36 PM
  18. selihah

    selihah Member

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    I dont think for a moment they can explain how anything actually happened or who or what God is. But nether do I think they are reaching for straws. There are very intelligent men and women that have come around from the days of promoting the dogma of universe eternal to finding evidence that confirms what was written by some desert sheep herders 4000 years ago that the universe actually had a beginning (Genesis 1:1). Their investigations and theories of reality are leading some to think the universe may be akin to a great thought or information than anything else. I just find it interesting when I compare those scientists ideas with those ideas written several thousand years ago Psalms 33:6,9: By the word of Yehovah were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth... For he spoke, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.
    Proverbs 3:9 Yehovah by wisdom has founded the earth; by understanding has he established the heavens.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017 at 8:03 PM
  19. Bick

    Bick Member

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    Hi, Bick here. According to science, the universe had a beginning, and science also shows that it took a Beginner outside of the universe to make it all happen.
    All this is discussed on reasons.org, an organization made up of many scientists who are also Christans.
    I would urge everyone to log into this web site.
    Bick
     
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  20. selihah

    selihah Member

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    Yes in my best guess God is an ethereal being, non-physical you know, like Quantum Flucuations ;). What about you? Did you know 1900 years ago Onkelos interpreted Genesis 2:7 as conveying the definition of humanity? The verse relates that God put the soul of humanity (neshama) into "the Adam, and the Adam became a living being. The word 'to', in "to a living being" is missing in your translations but in Henrew its present to teach hints at a change from a lower to a higher form of existance. Based on this Onkelos read the verse as "and the Adam became a speaking spirit." Not a speaking animal or a speaking human but a spirit clothed in a physical body. The spirit of our neshama elevates us from being an animal that also speaks to a being whose primary essence is spiritual and only secondarily is physical. Thats deep :biggrin
     

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