Bible Study Who Told you, When you Die you go to Heaven?

[Bro.Tan]

Preachers are misleading people into believing fantasy stories. People go to grave talking to dirt and statutes, buying flowers, wasting time and money. People believing that they love ones are looking down on them smiling, with all this hell going on in earth. When a person dies, does he or she have any consciousness? Does a puff of smoke leave their body and go flying off into the third heaven? Do you really believe your love ones looking down at you from heaven, smiling. Or do they just float around the earth hunting houses, jumping from behind trees scaring people? If you have a logical bone in your body you know that is sheer nonsense. It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true" (John 8:17). We will quote testimonies from the Prophets and the Apostle.

Who gave them the word? (Acts 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which showed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.) They received the law by the disposition of angels.

Where did the angels get the word? (Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John The angels got it from the Lord. The Lord got it from the Father. The Prophets and the Apostle are simply quoting the Lord. If you don't believe them, you don't believe the Lord.

Our first witness is Solomon. He is very wise, as a matter of fact he was wiser than any man that walked the earth, except for Jesus of course. Why? I Kings 3:28 And all Israel heard of the judgment which the king had judged; and they feared the king: for they saw that the wisdom of God was in him, to do judgment. I Kings 4:1 So king Solomon was king over all Israel. He had the wisdom of God.

Let' see what Solomon has to say about this subject. Ecclesiastes 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Take a look at what Solomon said. This event happened to us all while we are under the sun. Why did he say under the sun? We'll find this out later. Pay close attention here. The heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live. While they live. Then what happens after that? They go to the dead.

 

[Bro.Tan]

Ecclesiastes 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

While you are still alive there is still hope. What hope is this? Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: This is what you hope for while you are still alive. Notice something else, Solomon said. For a living dog is better than a dead lion. Why is that? The dog is alive and the lion is dust. Can a dead lion be of any use? No! Solomon said a mouth full, look at the next verse.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

For the living know not any thing, neither any more reward. Why? Once you're dead there is no more hope. If you went to the grave in Christ, he will awake you in the first resurrection, and you will live and reign on the earth with him and the saints. If you did not die in Christ he will wake you in the second resurrection and you will be judged according to your works. If you are dead do you have any memory? What did Solomon say? "For the memory of them is forgotten". Now we know you have no more memory while you are in the grave. If you did something wrong to a person and they're dead, you don't have to worry, they won't come and haunt your house.

Solomon said in Ecclesiastes 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

This verse speaks for itself. To put it short you don't remember anything while you are in the grave. Why does he continue to say "under the sun"? He's said it twice. We will find out a little later.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave whither thou goest.

If there is no work, no device, no knowledge, no wisdom, in the grave, why does

the status quo say there are spirits that walk the earth? They have no knowledge of the Word of God. There are spirits that walk the earth, but they are not dead people. They are fallen angels. We will see an example of one later. In short, the dead don't know anything.

 

[Creative]

Jesus told us it is possible with this parable from Luke:

Luke 16:19-31New International Version (NIV)
The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham, he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

 

[Creative]

In Mathew 17 Jesus meets with Moses and Elijah.

1 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

 

[Creative]

Not trying to debate, just answering that Lord Jesus and the gospels spell it out for us, since you asked in the title of your thread.

I am certain that many others will help you in this Bible study who are more educated than I am in this matter.

 

[Willie T]

Creative,
Do you seriously think that parable was meant to describe the after life? It was a story to tell the Jews that even Greek Gentiles like Lazarus (Eleazar) would be comforted because of their faith while the Jews were trusting in their birth heritage.

 

[Creative]

Creative,
Do you seriously think that parable was meant to describe the after life? It was a story to tell the Jews that even Greek Gentiles like Lazarus (Eleazar) would be comforted because of their faith while the Jews were trusting in their birth heritage.

I never said the point of the parable was that. The point is one is described and don't think Jesus would have described one if it did not exist. To state it more clearly I do not believe Jesus is a liar.

 

[Eugene]

When a person dies, does he or she have any consciousness? Does a puff of smoke leave their body and go flying off into the third heaven?

Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, . . .?

2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
(Is our Lord in the third heaven?)

Where did the thief go with Jesus when they were crucified? To paradise? Lk 23:43. And then Jesus went first into the lower parts of the earth. Eph 4:9.
Where is paradise today? 2 Cor 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise,
(Are you into Soul Sleep doctrines?)

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John

You wrote of the angel showing John things that must come to pass. That was Jesus' angel! Do you know who he was, where he was, and what he was? I may be reading you wrong, but to have made some of the statements you have, I would suppose you don't know this.
Be blessed in Christ Jesus.

 

[Christ_empowered]

Jesus speaks of the afterlife, especially a place of "weeping and gnashing of teeth" for the unrepentant. I do think it is worth noting that Jesus was not only the only sinless human being -ever-, he was also the only perfect Jew, ever. His life and work and crucifixion fulfilled the Old Covenant and made it possible for so many people, all over the world, to be "grafted onto the tree."

Point is...Ecclesiastes is fascinating, and I enjoy reading it now and then, especially in my more melancholy moments. Having said that...Jesus was (and is...) God made Flesh. Kind of a big deal. He speaks of eternal life for the repentant, eternal death for the unrepentant. I sometimes think (and I vaguely recall reading someone else writing something to this effect, somewhere...) that God has Ecclesiastes in The Canon in part to show us how ultimately futile life/existence is without Christ.

 

[Northman]

Luke 23:43 was all I ever needed to answer the question.

 

[I'M Grams]

1Th.

13
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

[Bro.Tan]

Jesus told us it is possible with this parable from Luke:

Luke 16:19-31New International Version (NIV)
The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham, he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

This is the lake of Fire in the future, also this is on earth, in Jesus kingdom.

 

[Bro.Tan]

In Mathew 17 Jesus meets with Moses and Elijah.

1 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

This is a future vision Jesus showing the apostles...Lets go into Matthew 17: 9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. No prophets in heaven, all till in the grave.

 

[Bro.Tan]

Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, . . .?

2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
(Is our Lord in the third heaven?)

Where did the thief go with Jesus when they were crucified? To paradise? Lk 23:43. And then Jesus went first into the lower parts of the earth. Eph 4:9.
Where is paradise today? 2 Cor 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise,
(Are you into Soul Sleep doctrines?)

You wrote of the angel showing John things that must come to pass. That was Jesus' angel! Do you know who he was, where he was, and what he was? I may be reading you wrong, but to have made some of the statements you have, I would suppose you don't know this.
Be blessed in Christ Jesus.

Lets take a look at the thief on the cross situation. Most people miss understand this situation all the time. Lets carefully look at this ...let go into Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Now if we look closely with spiritual eyes and understanding we know that something is wrong with situation. The common is in the wrong place, Lets place the common in the right place and see how it should read...43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise. Those that have knowledge knows that Jesus was in the grave for three days and three nights, so with understanding we see the error right a way.

Lets go into Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. So Jesus and the thieves went to the grave when they died. Now, Jesus rose from the grave after three day and three nights, and still didn't go to the third heaven yet.

Lets go into St. John 20:14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away. 16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. 17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. Now...Jesus still on Earth (first heaven) and talking to Mary, and where is the thief? Still in the grave into this day!

We can’t read anywhere, where Jesus told the thief, I'll meet you up there in a few days, so hold tight till I get there...Lol. Jesus says with his own mouth in John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. But people look over the 42 second verse in in Luke. Lets read it again. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. Remember me when thou comes into thy kingdom. That's after Jesus second coming, brothers and sisters.

Let's go into Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. This is Jesus Kingdom or paradise the thief asks Jesus to remember him in.

 

[Bro.Tan]

Let's find another witness. The Lord said that David was a man after His own heart. David should know about this subject. Let's see if David and Solomon are on the same page.


Psalms 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

"Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help". Why did David make this statement in verse 3? No man can give you eternal life; neither does any man have a lake of fire to put you in. Whom shall you put all your trust? Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. How do you lean on the Lord's understanding and not your own? By reading the book without putting a twist on it and taking every word for what it says, you will never go wrong. Why should you do that? Pay close attention. Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. If his thoughts are higher than ours, why should anyone try to interpret His Word. Seems like David and Solomon are on the same page.

Look at verse 4. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. His thoughts perish when he gives up his last breath. Man is made of 2 elements dust, and breath, no more, no less. Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. When David said he gives up the ghost he simply means his breath. David clarifies this even further in the 88th Psalm.

Psalms 88:10 Wilt thou show wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.

11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?

12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?

What did he call the grave? The land of forgetfulness. So far the Bible is consistent.

Let's check out a few more Psalm.

Psalm 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Was that hard to understand? No. If you are dead you have no wisdom, no knowledge, no memory who can you praise? No one. Here is another Psalm.

Psalm 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

This verse clarifies the 6th Psalm. David and Solomon are consistent. Let's go to another Prophet, the Prophet Isaiah and see what he has to say about this subject.

Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.

The Prophet Isaiah confirmed what David and Solomon said. "For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth". Does anything else need to be said? This is very clear. Look at verse 19. The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth. While you are alive you can praise the Lord.

 

[brujaq]

Your thoughts on 1 Peter 3:18-19 Matthew 22:31-32 Matthew 17:1-3 .. We know we now sleep until Jesus return

 

[Eugene]

Your thoughts on 1 Peter 3:18-19 Matthew 22:31-32 Matthew 17:1-3 .. We know we now sleep until Jesus return

Our bodies sleep, but as you used Mat 17:1-3 Moses & Elias were very much involved in heavenly things.

 

[brujaq]

Does a place called paradise still exist or was it just another word for heaven ?

 

[th1b.taylor]

Lets take a look at the thief on the cross situation. Most people miss understand this situation all the time. Lets carefully look at this ...let go into Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Now if we look closely with spiritual eyes and understanding we know that something is wrong with situation. The common is in the wrong place, Lets place the common in the right place and see how it should read...43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise. Those that have knowledge knows that Jesus was in the grave for three days and three nights, so with understanding we see the error right a way.

That leaves me asking two questions:

• What are your demonstrable, verifiable Linguist and Ancient Aramaic credentials?
• Do you not believe God when He states He will keep His Word pure but rather believe that men can delude him?

Lets go into Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. So Jesus and the thieves went to the grave when they died. Now, Jesus rose from the grave after three day and three nights, and still didn't go to the third heaven yet.

The way it is written is correct but your addition is forbidden six times in scripture. In Duet. 4:2. Psalm 119, 169, Pro. 30:6, 1Cor. 4:6, and in Revelation 22:18-19. On a personal level, if God says something I pay attention and try to obey Him. If God says a thing twice in scripture, I see God is highlighting it as being very important, but for God to highlight a point three times, wow and this point is placed in there six times. If I do what you are doing and did not repent of it, the next instant after this body dies, I would expect to wake up in Hell to await the Final Resurrection to await the Great White Throne Judgment and the Lake of Fire.

Lets go into St. John 20:14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away. 16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. 17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. Now...Jesus still on Earth (first heaven) and talking to Mary, and where is the thief? Still in the grave into this day!

Seriously? Do you not understand, even the basics? Go lay down outside and look straight up, that Blue Expanse you see is the first Heaven. The Second Heaven is the area we find our Star, the Sun and all the other Galaxies affixed to and held in and held there by the will of our Great and Mighty God.

We can’t read anywhere, where Jesus told the thief, I'll meet you up there in a few days, so hold tight till I get there...Lol. Jesus says with his own mouth in John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. But people look over the 42 second verse in in Luke. Lets read it again.

And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. Remember me when thou comes into thy kingdom. That's after Jesus second coming, brothers and sisters

Matthew 27:51-53 teaches us where the proclamation found in the Creeds of the first Churches of Jesus descending into Hell came from. Luke 16:19-31 teaches us that Paradise is separate but within view of Hell but I tell you the truth, the Matthew verses that are listed at the beginning of this paragraph prove that Jesus released all of the inhabitants of Paradise (Abraham's bosom) were released from there and ran through the Holy city, ending the need for Paradise and proving it is not Heaven, that is where all of the dead saints are today.

Let's go into Revelation 20:4

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. This is Jesus Kingdom or paradise the thief asks Jesus to remember him in.

I have already proved this incorrect.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Does a place called paradise still exist or was it just another word for heaven ?

Read Mat 27:51-53, it was there but if God left it after Jesus released the Old Testament Saints, it is empty.