Bible Study Who Told you, When you Die you go to Heaven?

[brujaq]

Hi brujag, I do not see how you can agree with all Scripture, and then agree with Bro. Tan? Or did you mean you agree with Bro. Tan's explanation of the meaning of Scripture? What has The Lord shown you about what happens after death?

I agree with all scripture that Bro.Tan quoted and all scripture period Douglass .. So I agree with Bro.Tan on scripture not all his personal view of it .. I don't even agree with my own personal view 100% outside of pure stated scripture and willing to change my POV to improve my understanding and have before as I seek understanding . I may play off base a little but never far enough where I can be picked off or not get safely back to base using baseball terms .. And if I do play off a little I know to be alert knowing the danger but also willing and watching to get to the next base safely if it's open .. But always grounded in the Word and Jesus ..

I think we sleep in our graves since Jesus victory over death and hell , I tend to think Jonah drowned and with his last dying thought cried out to God , the fish was caused to swallow him then vomited him up 3 days later and resurrected by God possibly where some Nineveh citizens were present to witness a resurrection as a sign .. When Jesus body give up the Ghost I think his Spirit which is who he was/is he went and preached those 3 days to the faithful OT spirits in Hell (definitely not demon spirits) they had been kept in the OT covenant for that purpose and I think the thief on the cross was with him that day, the OT Saints that broke out of their graves it isn't clear as scripture mentions them no more so it is open to speculation pending on a word from the Lord otherwise . As I mentioned before I think most of Bro.Tans scripture on the dead was mans view from mans perspective that I also think warns us not to try to contact or consult the dead , they are dead to us but not God and great danger if we seek advice, help or council from the dead and the witch of Endor told king Saul she saw gods coming out of the Earth and imo one who fit a description of Samuel, we are to hear only from the Word, angels, prophets and or the Holy Spirit from God .. Our spirit/soul remains and never dies imo only our corruptible flesh dies until the resurrection .. I'm good if we go immediately to be with the Lord or if we wait asleep somewhere but tend to think we are present with the Lord .. The OT Saints seen walking the streets I can't preach it but I tend to think they went to be with the Lord after his ascension either in spirit or both body and spirit ..

Your thoughts on 1 Peter 3:18-19 Matthew 22:31-32 Matthew 17:1-3 .. We know we now sleep until Jesus return

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree with all scripture that Bro.Tan quoted and all scripture period Douglass .. So I agree with Bro.Tan on scripture not all his personal view of it .. I don't even agree with my own personal view 100% outside of pure stated scripture and willing to change my POV to improve my understanding and have before as I seek understanding . I may play off base a little but never far enough where I can be picked off or not get safely back to base using baseball terms .. And if I do play off a little I know to be alert knowing the danger but also willing and watching to get to the next base safely if it's open .. But always grounded in the Word and Jesus ..

I think we sleep in our graves since Jesus victory over death and hell , I tend to think Jonah drowned and with his last dying thought cried out to God , the fish was caused to swallow him then vomited him up 3 days later and resurrected by God possibly where some Nineveh citizens were present to witness a resurrection as a sign .. When Jesus body give up the Ghost I think his Spirit which is who he was/is he went and preached those 3 days to the faithful OT spirits in Hell (definitely not demon spirits) they had been kept in the OT covenant for that purpose and I think the thief on the cross was with him that day, the OT Saints that broke out of their graves it isn't clear as scripture mentions them no more so it is open to speculation pending on a word from the Lord otherwise . As I mentioned before I think most of Bro.Tans scripture on the dead was mans view from mans perspective that I also think warns us not to try to contact or consult the dead , they are dead to us but not God and great danger if we seek advice, help or council from the dead and the witch of Endor told king Saul she saw gods coming out of the Earth and imo one who fit a description of Samuel, we are to hear only from the Word, angels, prophets and or the Holy Spirit from God .. Our spirit/soul remains and never dies imo only our corruptible flesh dies until the resurrection .. I'm good if we go immediately to be with the Lord or if we wait asleep somewhere but tend to think we are present with the Lord .. The OT Saints seen walking the streets I can't preach it but I tend to think they went to be with the Lord after his ascension either in spirit or both body and spirit ..

I've been thinking and reading about this since Bro Tan's posts.
I don't consider it a heresy if one wants to believe that our soul does not go immediately to heaven.

Where I cannot agree with you is that it is sleeping somewhere.
What I can understand, as differing from my opinion -- and I say opinion now because how can we be sure of what happens after death? So much scripture to go through (maybe there should be a Thread?)...
Is that MAYBE a soul goes to be in hades.
But, so, what is hades??
What a complicated subject!
We would need first to understand the different concepts of the afterlife as believed at the time of Jesus.

Hades would be what Jesus speaks of in Luke 16:19-31
It's kind of a "holding place" where we await final judgement.
Some are tormented, maybe just by knowing that they've been separated and awaiting sure judgement. Some are happy in Abraham's Bossom.

I always believed that when Jesus died, the veil was torn and heaven's gates were open to all. I've come to realize that this is a modern day understanding and may not always have existed. It seem the reformers were not so certain either.

If my post sounds jumbled, it's because my mind is right now.
Could I ask how YOU have come to believe that the soul might sleep.

BTW, the SDA are not the only Christians who believe in soul sleep.
But, as I've said I DO NOT bellieve the soul sleeps. It's either alive or not...
where, I'm not 100% certain. I always thought in heaven.

Maybe there should be a thread on this...

 

[brujaq]

Since we await bodily resurrection our body is dead or asleep awaiting our new resurrected body but you and I have died and been reborn in spirit never to die again in a sense .. My main definition of death is eternal spiritual separation from God and not ceasing to exist .. Please don't let me confuse you Wondering, I'm confused enough for both of us at times .. O Death where is thy sting .. 1 Corinthians 15:18-20 , 1 Corinthians15:51-52

 

[Douglas Summers]

If my post sounds jumbled, it's because my mind is right now.
Could I ask how YOU have come to believe that the soul might sleep.

Hi Wondering, I don't know if you are familiar with writings of "Josephus". He was the Christian Bishop of Jerusalem (Born 37 A.D. to 100 A.D.) He wrote and explained the OT to the "Greek" converts. His dad was an "ethnic" Jewish priest. Below is a web site of a Discourse he wrote for the Greeks converts as to what the Church believed about "Hades". People who do not believe in the soul returning back to it's creator, Always try to discredit anything or anyone that disagrees with their teachings. There are too many Scriptures that support a conscience soul after physical death. Read below the "Hades Discourse" and compare it to "Lazarus and the Rich Man".

Josephus's Discourse to the Greeks concerning Hades
www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/hades.htm

An Extract Out Of Josephus's Discourse To The Greeks Concerning Hades. 1. NOW as to Hades, wherein the souls of the of the good things they see, and rejoice in the ...

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi Wondering, I don't know if you are familiar with writings of "Josephus". He was the Christian Bishop of Jerusalem (Born 37 A.D. to 100 A.D.) He wrote and explained the OT to the "Greek" converts. His dad was an "ethnic" Jewish priest. Below is a web site of a Discourse he wrote for the Greeks converts as to what the Church believed about "Hades". People who do not believe in the soul returning back to it's creator, Always try to discredit anything or anyone that disagrees with their teachings. There are too many Scriptures that support a conscience soul after physical death. Read below the "Hades Discourse" and compare it to "Lazarus and the Rich Man".

Josephus's Discourse to the Greeks concerning Hades
www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/hades.htm

An Extract Out Of Josephus's Discourse To The Greeks Concerning Hades. 1. NOW as to Hades, wherein the souls of the of the good things they see, and rejoice in the ...

I already know about this. That's why I said I've been doing some reading and thinking.
I'm not 100% certain since reading so much. It seems scripture that says we go to be immediately with God can be disputed.
For instance:
To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

OK. The soul is alive. I do believe THIS. So we're with the Lord in the sense that we are NOT in hell, but are we in heaven?

I'm going to read the above again. It's actual an important part of what I've been thinking about.

Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

Since we await bodily resurrection our body is dead or asleep awaiting our new resurrected body but you and I have died and been reborn in spirit never to die again in a sense .. My main definition of death is eternal spiritual separation from God and not ceasing to exist .. Please don't let me confuse you Wondering, I'm confused enough for both of us at times .. O Death where is thy sting .. 1 Corinthians 15

What you're talking about is soul sleep. The O.T. speaks to this.
Also there are three types of death:
Physical
Spiritual --- while we're here alive but not in Jesus so we don't have the spark of Life.
Eternal -- The lake of fire, eternal death.

I agree that we will be eternally separated from God but will not cease to exist. If this were true, as some believe, why would Jesus have worked so hard to make us know the narrow road? We could just live it up here and sin all we want to and have worries about judgement since anyway we just disappear. (let's not discuss about how we obey due to love and make this conversation useless!)

Don't worry. I don't get confused. I do like to think everything through really well.
I could even change my mind!

Will post more as I get my thoughts together.
P.S. Please read the link to Josephus that Douglas Summers posted. It's important.

 

[brujaq]

What you're talking about is soul sleep. The O.T. speaks to this.
Also there are three types of death:
Physical
Spiritual --- while we're here alive but not in Jesus so we don't have the spark of Life.
Eternal -- The lake of fire, eternal death.

I agree that we will be eternally separated from God but will not cease to exist. If this were true, as some believe, why would Jesus have worked so hard to make us know the narrow road? We could just live it up here and sin all we want to and have worries about judgement since anyway we just disappear. (let's not discuss about how we obey due to love and make this conversation useless!)

Don't worry. I don't get confused. I do like to think everything through really well.
I could even change my mind!

Will post more as I get my thoughts together.
P.S. Please read the link to Josephus that Douglas Summers posted. It's important.

I went back and edited to specific verses Wondering ..

 

[GodsGrace]

I went back and edited to specific verses Wondering ..

I saw the two verses:

1 Corinthians 15:18-20 , 1 Corinthians15:51-52

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 is easy.
When Jesus returns at the end of the world, not everyone will be asleep (dead), some will still be alive and we all will be changed in the twinkling of an eye.
The dead will be raised imperishable (in their new glorified body) and we (everyone) will be changed (into our new gloified body as also those that were already dead).

As for 1 Cor 15:18-20
Can't this mean that since Jesus was raised up, then all who die can be raised up?
He is FIRST in a long line of those who are going to leave the cemetary... It doesn't say WHEN.

We read a lot about resurrection. Why would resurrection be so important if the dead are already in heaven?? Who cares if I have my body or not if I'm with God??

(just thinking out loud)

 

[brujaq]

I saw the two verses:

1 Corinthians 15:18-20 , 1 Corinthians15:51-52

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 is easy.
When Jesus returns at the end of the world, not everyone will be asleep (dead), some will still be alive and we all will be changed in the twinkling of an eye.
The dead will be raised imperishable (in their new glorified body) and we (everyone) will be changed (into our new gloified body as also those that were already dead).

As for 1 Cor 15:18-20
Can't this mean that since Jesus was raised up, then all who die can be raised up?
He is FIRST in a long line of those who are going to leave the cemetary... It doesn't say WHEN.

We read a lot about resurrection. Why would resurrection be so important if the dead are already in heaven?? Who cares if I have my body or not if I'm with God??

(just thinking out loud)

I thought you asking me where I got the idea of sleep in the other post. I ain't planning on dying but I'm pretty sure I'll be in my grave before too long getting rid of this worn out tired old body, I've almost used it all up by now ..

 

[GodsGrace]

I thought you asking me where I got the idea of sleep in the other post. I ain't planning on dying but I'm pretty sure I'll be in my grave before too long getting rid of this worn out tired old body, I've almost used it all up by now ..

Oh. No. I know about soul sleep and where people get the idea. It's in the O.T. too.
And, BTW, I checked your profile and you're not old !

I'll post some ideas here maybe tomorrow or the next day.
Jesus said Today You Will Be with Me in Paradise.
He didn't say Heaven...
Much to consider.

(paradise was understood to be Hades, or Luke 16)

 

[Eugene]

What a complicated subject!
We would need first to understand the different concepts of the afterlife as believed at the time of Jesus.

Hi Dear Sister wondering, due to your honest want to learn more about this subject, I just posted an article written by a bible teacher and pastor titled Death, Hell, and the Lake of Fire at the following URL link I hope will lead you seeing things that could be to your benefit.
http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/death-hell-and-the-lake-of-fire.71723/

Blessings in Christ Jesus. The original study is: at http://www.gracegod.com/pamphlet_and_articles/pamphlets/Death, Hell and the Lake of Fire.pdf

 

[brujaq]

Off topic here but ..I've had two visions of people I knew but saw in heaven before they died, both of them had been afflicted in this life.. I've had two life changing dreams in two consecutive nights, the first in the presence of God in what I think was heaven (I never looked up) and the next out of the presence of God and in the presence of who turned out to be the devil .. Not like normal dreams that jump from one thing to the next randomly but well structured with defining points. If I had not had the first dream I don't think I could have lived through the second one, it was that terrible and horrifying .. But it was not the devil that scared me so much as the lost and hopeless feeling being out of God's presence and nothing at all I could do about it ..

Oh. No. I know about soul sleep and where people get the idea. It's in the O.T. too.
And, BTW, I checked your profile and you're not old !

I'll post some ideas here maybe tomorrow or the next day.
Jesus said Today You Will Be with Me in Paradise.
He didn't say Heaven...
Much to consider.

(paradise was understood to be Hades, or Luke 16)

 

[brujaq]

I'm 64

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi Dear Sister wondering, due to your honest want to learn more about this subject, I just posted an article written by a bible teacher and pastor titled Death, Hell, and the Lake of Fire at the following URL link I hope will lead you seeing things that could be to your benefit.
http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/death-hell-and-the-lake-of-fire.71723/

Blessings in Christ Jesus. The original study is: at http://www.gracegod.com/pamphlet_and_articles/pamphlets/Death, Hell and the Lake of Fire.pdf

Hi Eugene

It's late here and I need to concentrate. Will read the link tomorrow.
I hope you follow along because I'd like your input.

 

[1Genesis]

Preachers are misleading people into believing fantasy stories. People go to grave talking to dirt and statutes, buying flowers, wasting time and money. People believing that they love ones are looking down on them smiling, with all this hell going on in earth. When a person dies, does he or she have any consciousness? Does a puff of smoke leave their body and go flying off into the third heaven? Do you really believe your love ones looking down at you from heaven, smiling. Or do they just float around the earth hunting houses, jumping from behind trees scaring people? If you have a logical bone in your body you know that is sheer nonsense. It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true" (John 8:17). We will quote testimonies from the Prophets and the Apostle.

Who gave them the word? (Acts 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which showed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.) They received the law by the disposition of angels.

Where did the angels get the word? (Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John The angels got it from the Lord. The Lord got it from the Father. The Prophets and the Apostle are simply quoting the Lord. If you don't believe them, you don't believe the Lord.

Our first witness is Solomon. He is very wise, as a matter of fact he was wiser than any man that walked the earth, except for Jesus of course. Why? I Kings 3:28 And all Israel heard of the judgment which the king had judged; and they feared the king: for they saw that the wisdom of God was in him, to do judgment. I Kings 4:1 So king Solomon was king over all Israel. He had the wisdom of God.

Let' see what Solomon has to say about this subject. Ecclesiastes 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Take a look at what Solomon said. This event happened to us all while we are under the sun. Why did he say under the sun? We'll find this out later. Pay close attention here. The heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live. While they live. Then what happens after that? They go to the dead.

I sure hope this is on topic Bro.sk.
Ecclesiastes 12:7

 

[brujaq]

Oh. No. I know about soul sleep and where people get the idea. It's in the O.T. too.
And, BTW, I checked your profile and you're not old !

I'll post some ideas here maybe tomorrow or the next day.
Jesus said Today You Will Be with Me in Paradise.
He didn't say Heaven...
Much to consider.

(paradise was understood to be Hades, or Luke 16)

What do you or they say about soul sleep sis ?

 

[GodsGrace]

Off topic here but ..I've had two visions of people I knew but saw in heaven before they died, both of them had been afflicted in this life.. I've had two life changing dreams in two consecutive nights, the first in the presence of God in what I think was heaven (I never looked up) and the next out of the presence of God and in the presence of who turned out to be the devil .. Not like normal dreams that jump from one thing to the next randomly but well structured with defining points. If I had not had the first dream I don't think I could have lived through the second one, it was that terrible and horrifying .. But it was not the devil that scared me so much as the lost and hopeless feeling being out of God's presence and nothing at all I could do about it ..

I understand and agree.
That hopeless feeling would be enough to label the place as hell.
Imagine an earth with only evil and the absence of God.
That's hell.

But let's not think or dream about it too much!
Let's give God the glory as we ponder this question as to when one goes to heaven.
We should remember that in God's dimension a thousand years are as a day.
And also, if I find a topic disturbing , I stop thinking about it and think about Jesus.
Philippians 4:8

 

[GodsGrace]

What do you or they say about soul sleep sis ?

I don't believe in soul sleep.
A soul is energy and energy does not sleep or die,,,it just continues.
This is a scientific fact and God created scientific laws.
Even if we end up in Abraham's Bossom, it'll be a very nice place!

 

[GodsGrace]

I sure hope this is on topic Bro.sk.
Ecclesiastes 12:7

Too many different ideas in the OT to base doctrine on that.
We should study Jesus in this regard...

PS. I'm not saying I don't agree...

 

[1Genesis]

Never heard that one before, but in the scriptures its written in Proverbs 15: 14 The heart of him that hath understanding seeketh knowledge: but the mouth of fools feedeth on foolishness.

Yes, it is as I said. Former is that recognition. Latter is confession. Thanks.