Who was Jesus addressing the Sermon on the Mount to?

[Edward]

dirtfarmer here

I would like for someone to explain how the "sermon on the mount" can be applied to the "Church" when it's(the Church) foundation stone had not yet been laid. The "church" is established on the resurrected Christ. The debt of sin had not yet been paid while Christ was still alive on earth and had not applied his blood to the altar in heaven.

Those scriptures were written to all which may aspire to life and salvation through our Lord and savior Jesus Christ. Every word from both the OT and NT's are for every single person to look to.

It's always been curious to me how people get confused about this. The OT isn't just for the Jews and the NT for the gentiles, There's an incredible amount of talk in the bible which supports this. One faith one God One Spirit one body....grafted in as one new man...unity. God wouldn't write different sections for different people for that would be confusing for people to sift out properly. Our Lord is not the author of confusion!

Man makes it confusing.

 

[dirtfarmer]

The Church, The ecclesia, the Holy nation, began with Abraham, as he was in covenant with the Lord Jesus Christ, before He became flesh, and walked with Him, obeying His voice, and keeping His commandments, leaving for us an example of those who walk by faith.


And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” Genesis 26:4-5

• because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

To be part of the "Church" you have to be born of the Spirit and Indwelt by the Spirit, so, when did the Spirit begin to indwell and "born" people into the body of Christ?

 

[dirtfarmer]

Those scriptures were written to all which may aspire to life and salvation through our Lord and savior Jesus Christ. Every word from both the OT and NT's are for every single person to look to.

It's always been curious to me how people get confused about this. The OT isn't just for the Jews and the NT for the gentiles, There's an incredible amount of talk in the bible which supports this. One faith one God One Spirit one body....grafted in as one new man...unity. God wouldn't write different sections for different people for that would be confusing for people to sift out properly. Our Lord is not the author of confusion!

Man makes it confusing.

hello Edward, dirtfarmer here

In your reply you mentioned the One's of Ephesians 4:5-6. So, tell me when the Body of Christ( the Church) was formed? Was it before Pentecost? Was there a "grafting in as one new man" before Pentecost. In "the Law" there are sacrifices, are they written to the body of believers to observe? or, were they written only to the Israelites, God's chosen people?
What is confusing is when you take things that were written to the Jews and try to apply them to the "Church", is when you get confusion. I agree "Our Lord is not the author of confusion".

 

[JLB]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

To be part of the "Church" you have to be born of the Spirit and Indwelt by the Spirit, so, when did the Spirit begin to indwell and "born" people into the body of Christ?

I don’t actually know where that is found in scripture...

“To be part of the "Church" you have to be born of the Spirit”

To be part of God’s Kingdom, we must be born of the Spirit.

Do you believe Abraham is a part of God’s Kingdom?

• The Spirit of Christ dwelled within Abraham, being in covenant with the Lord, and being a prophet, who obeyed the Lord.

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.
1 Peter 1:10-11

• Abraham was a prophet.

Now therefore, restore the man’s wife; for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you shall live. But if you do not restore her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours.
Genesis 20:7

This blessing of receiving and walking according to the Lord’s Spirit has been promised to those who are the faith of Abraham.


14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Galatians 3:14

• Abraham demonstrated for us, the blessing of a person who walks with God in His presence; who walks according to His Spirit.

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. 2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.” Genesis 17:1-2

• We who are “in Christ” are grafted into this same covenant that has been “renewed” or “refreshed” and is now called the New Covenant, in which we are called children of Abraham.

Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. Galatians 3:7

again


You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed. Acts 3:27


again


13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said.Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness,[f] if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? Romans 11:13-24

• And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,

The Covenant that the Lord Jesus made with Abraham, is the root, the foundational covenant to which the law was added until the Seed should come, and became the New “renewed” Covenant, when the Lord became flesh, and shed His blood.



JLB

 

[JLB]

hello Edward, dirtfarmer here

In your reply you mentioned the One's of Ephesians 4:5-6. So, tell me when the Body of Christ( the Church) was formed? Was it before Pentecost? Was there a "grafting in as one new man" before Pentecost. In "the Law" there are sacrifices, are they written to the body of believers to observe? or, were they written only to the Israelites, God's chosen people?
What is confusing is when you take things that were written to the Jews and try to apply them to the "Church", is when you get confusion. I agree "Our Lord is not the author of confusion".

19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
Ephesians 2:19-22

• having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,

Abraham was a prophet.



JLB

 

[Edward]

hello Edward, dirtfarmer here

In your reply you mentioned the One's of Ephesians 4:5-6. So, tell me when the Body of Christ( the Church) was formed? Was it before Pentecost? Was there a "grafting in as one new man" before Pentecost. In "the Law" there are sacrifices, are they written to the body of believers to observe? or, were they written only to the Israelites, God's chosen people?
What is confusing is when you take things that were written to the Jews and try to apply them to the "Church", is when you get confusion. I agree "Our Lord is not the author of confusion".

I can think of one before Pentecost off the top of my head. The Canaanite woman in Matthew 15:21-28...and she asked for His help. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. , but she persisted and said come on now...and Jesus told her again, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs...

Sounds pretty clear and like you're right Brother, but, this woman held onto her faith and refused to take no for an answer. She essentially reached into the future by faith, and took hold of that promise that had not been given yet! And God is cool like that, He knew the promise was coming and so He graced it upon her.

So there's that. I might be able to think of more. And the sacrifice thing, it's a bad analogy because it's extreme thinking and all sacrifices of animals were made null after Jesus's work on the cross.

So even though the church hadn't been established yet, I don't know the exact official date in God's records for the day the church was formed, but it was coming and the Lord knew that and so went ahead and healed that Canaanite woman's daughter in that very hour...in response to her faith in something, that had not been decreed yet!

Does that make sense Brother? I see through a glass darkly also so I guess I could be wrong, but I'm not seeing it if I am wrong.

 

[JLB]

What is confusing is when you take things that were written to the Jews and try to apply them to the "Church",

What is confusing is to take things written to the Jewish Church and think they don’t apply to the Gentile Church.


For we are all one in Christ Jesus.


Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:7-9

• the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.

Abraham being a type of the one new man who is both Jew and Gentile.



JLB

 

[WIP]

hello Edward, dirtfarmer here

In your reply you mentioned the One's of Ephesians 4:5-6. So, tell me when the Body of Christ( the Church) was formed? Was it before Pentecost? Was there a "grafting in as one new man" before Pentecost. In "the Law" there are sacrifices, are they written to the body of believers to observe? or, were they written only to the Israelites, God's chosen people?
What is confusing is when you take things that were written to the Jews and try to apply them to the "Church", is when you get confusion. I agree "Our Lord is not the author of confusion".

Is it possible the Bible was written for God's chosen people? The question is who are His chosen people?
Perhaps the descendants of Israel.
“For you (Israelites) are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth." Deuteronomy 7:6 ESV

But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 1 Peter 2:9 ESV


Perhaps not just descendants of Israel but all those who place their faith and trust in Him.
"Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham." Matthew 3:8-9 ESV

But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. Galatians 3:25-29 ESV

Also Romans 11.

 

[Razeontherock]

Ditto for the great Russian novelist Leo Tolstoy (War and Peace, et al.) He had been in the depths of suicidal despair before encountering the Sermon On the Mount. He regarded it as absolutely the blueprint for human society (in contrast to the Russian Orthodox Church of his era, which he detested). His many writings on Christianity are among the most profound you will find, even though he surprisingly rejected all supernatural aspects of Christianity, such as the Resurrection, as hogwash.

He would have had a grand ol time with Thomas Jefferson

 

[dirtfarmer]

I don’t actually know where that is found in scripture...

“To be part of the "Church" you have to be born of the Spirit”

To be part of God’s Kingdom, we must be born of the Spirit.

Do you believe Abraham is a part of God’s Kingdom?

• The Spirit of Christ dwelled within Abraham, being in covenant with the Lord, and being a prophet, who obeyed the Lord.

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.
1 Peter 1:10-11

• Abraham was a prophet.

Now therefore, restore the man’s wife; for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you shall live. But if you do not restore her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours.
Genesis 20:7

This blessing of receiving and walking according to the Lord’s Spirit has been promised to those who are the faith of Abraham.


14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Galatians 3:14

• Abraham demonstrated for us, the blessing of a person who walks with God in His presence; who walks according to His Spirit.

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. 2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.” Genesis 17:1-2

• We who are “in Christ” are grafted into this same covenant that has been “renewed” or “refreshed” and is now called the New Covenant, in which we are called children of Abraham.

Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. Galatians 3:7

again


You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed. Acts 3:27


again


13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said.Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness,[f] if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? Romans 11:13-24

• And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,

The Covenant that the Lord Jesus made with Abraham, is the root, the foundational covenant to which the law was added until the Seed should come, and became the New “renewed” Covenant, when the Lord became flesh, and shed His blood.



JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

I am not looking to be part of the kingdom, but I am looking forward to rule and reign with Christ in his kingdom as an heir and co-heir.

 

[dirtfarmer]

19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
Ephesians 2:19-22

• having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,

Abraham was a prophet.



JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

The building that is referred to in Galatians is the body of Christ.

 

[dirtfarmer]

What is confusing is to take things written to the Jewish Church and think they don’t apply to the Gentile Church.


For we are all one in Christ Jesus.


Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:7-9

• the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.

Abraham being a type of the one new man who is both Jew and Gentile.



JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

Was animal sacrifice necessary for the old testament Jews? The answer is yes. As a new testament believer are we to offer animal sacrifices? The answer is no. The only sacrifice that is New Testament is that of Christ on the cross.

 

[Razeontherock]

I can think of one before Pentecost off the top of my head. The Canaanite woman in Matthew 15:21-28...and she asked for His help. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. , but she persisted and said come on now...and Jesus told her again, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs...

Sounds pretty clear and like you're right Brother, but, this woman held onto her faith and refused to take no for an answer. She essentially reached into the future by faith, and took hold of that promise that had not been given yet! And God is cool like that, He knew the promise was coming and so He graced it upon her.

So there's that. I might be able to think of more. And the sacrifice thing, it's a bad analogy because it's extreme thinking and all sacrifices of animals were made null after Jesus's work on the cross.

So even though the church hadn't been established yet, I don't know the exact official date in God's records for the day the church was formed, but it was coming and the Lord knew that and so went ahead and healed that Canaanite woman's daughter in that very hour...in response to her faith in something, that had not been decreed yet!

Does that make sense Brother? I see through a glass darkly also so I guess I could be wrong, but I'm not seeing it if I am wrong.

This is what makes Jesus' words in the Gospel so deep. The Old Covenant was in effect at the time, and the New was not ushered in until a little later. (The Church began on the Day of Pentecost, which was discussed pretty well in another thread)

I used to think Revelation was the book that took the most mastery of Scripture as a whole to understand; now I think it's the Gospels. Not to take away from their simplicity, nor to reduce the value of the obvious meaning, but to add a far greater depth to what He says to us.

 

[JLB]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

The building that is referred to in Galatians is the body of Christ.

Built on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, of whom I showed Abraham as being a prophet.



9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.”10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy[h] Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. 12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.

14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Revelation 21:9-14


The Church is the Israel of God.


For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.
Galatians 6;15-16


JLB

 

[JLB]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

Was animal sacrifice necessary for the old testament Jews? The answer is yes. As a new testament believer are we to offer animal sacrifices? The answer is no. The only sacrifice that is New Testament is that of Christ on the cross.

Of course we don’t offer animal sacrifices.

Abraham was the founding member of the Church, in which he was in covenant with the Lord Jesus and walked with the Lord in His prescence, obeying His voice, and keeping His commandments.


Paradise was named after him.



JLB

 

[Edward]

This is what makes Jesus' words in the Gospel so deep. The Old Covenant was in effect at the time, and the New was not ushered in until a little later. (The Church began on the Day of Pentecost, which was discussed pretty well in another thread)

I used to think Revelation was the book that took the most mastery of Scripture as a whole to understand; now I think it's the Gospels. Not to take away from their simplicity, nor to reduce the value of the obvious meaning, but to add a far greater depth to what He says to us.

yeah, for a time there while Jesus was alive but hadn't been crucified yet, the old covenant was still officially in force but there was some overlap and Jesus is very cool like that and let it ride and be so according to their faith He said. Like the gentile woman who touched the hem of His garment and was healed...!! Jesus felt it and said who was that?! Lol! She didn't even ask, she just did it. The healing love of God flowed out of Him in response to her acting upon her faith. She was still under the old covenant too.

So Jesus's words are very deep, even ones He hasn't spoken yet but knows He's going to! There's a big lesson in there for all of us.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Built on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, of whom I showed Abraham as being a prophet.



9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.”10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy[h] Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. 12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.

14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Revelation 21:9-14


The Church is the Israel of God.


For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.
Galatians 6;15-16


JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

In your last paragraph's reference to "a new creation", what was that new creation if it wasn't the body of believers as heirs and co-heirs with Christ? If it was the body of believers then how could it have been revealed to Abraham?

 

[JLB]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

In your last paragraph's reference to "a new creation", what was that new creation if it wasn't the body of believers as heirs and co-heirs with Christ? If it was the body of believers then how could it have been revealed to Abraham?

So you don’t believe that Abraham who was in covenant with the Lord and chosen to be a father to many nations both Jew and Gentile, in which he walked with the Lord and obeyed His voice and kept His commandments and laws, but didn’t believe in the Lord ?

How does that make any sense?


When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. 2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.” 3 Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying: 4 “As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations.
Genesis 17:1-4

• When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram

Please understand the same Lord that appeared to Saul of Tarsus, also appeared to Abraham and made covenant directly with him in person.


The New Covenant is the “refreshed” Abrahamic Covenant that Jesus “renewed” with His own blood.

That the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ.



JLB

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Of course we don’t offer animal sacrifices.

Abraham was the founding member of the Church, in which he was in covenant with the Lord Jesus and walked with the Lord in His prescence, obeying His voice, and keeping His commandments.


Paradise was named after him.



JLB

Amen. I believe the Lord expects each of us to be an Abraham to Him, that is walk in faith and obedience.

 

[Edward]

Amen. I believe the Lord expects each of us to be an Abraham to Him, that is walk in faith and obedience.

I'm doing an Abraham right now, lol. He said Edward move to land of Ohio...and nothing else so here I am waiting on Him I guess, lol.

No promises, no nothing just go He said. So now I'm here, like, da da da what now?