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Who was the Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition?

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#1
Paul wrote of the Son of Perdition:

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;" (2 Thessalonians 2:3)

So did Jesus:

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." (John 17:12)

The son of perdition Paul wrote about also had this characteristic:

"[He] opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." (2 Thessalonians 2:3)

The one Jesus spoke of is generally assumed to be Judas. Recall when he was being arrested:

"Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way: That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none." (John 18:8-9)

Were they the same?


Some background:

According to conservative estimates, the Gospel of John was written in the 50's. The generally accepted theory is a later date. Second Thessalonians is generally agreed to have been written by Paul in the early 50's.

There are no additional references regarding the temple Paul wrote about in Thessalonians, whether it was in Jerusalem, Rome, or elsewhere. There was a temple in Jerusalem, and there were some in the Roman Empire, when Paul wrote the epistle.

The one in Jerusalem was already targeted for destruction, as far back as the days of Moses (Deut 28.) There was possibly a brief history of the Roman temples being used for Caesar worship in the first century.

Please provide scriptural references for your theories. That is, let the scripture prove the scripture.

"... in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established." (Matthew 18:16)
 

JLB

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#2
Paul wrote of the Son of Perdition:

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;" (2 Thessalonians 2:3)

So did Jesus:

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." (John 17:12)

The son of perdition Paul wrote about also had this characteristic:

"[He] opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." (2 Thessalonians 2:3)

The one Jesus spoke of is generally assumed to be Judas. Recall when he was being arrested:

"Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way: That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none." (John 18:8-9)

Were they the same?


Some background:

According to conservative estimates, the Gospel of John was written in the 50's. The generally accepted theory is a later date. Second Thessalonians is generally agreed to have been written by Paul in the early 50's.

There are no additional references regarding the temple Paul wrote about in Thessalonians, whether it was in Jerusalem, Rome, or elsewhere. There was a temple in Jerusalem, and there were some in the Roman Empire, when Paul wrote the epistle.

The one in Jerusalem was already targeted for destruction, as far back as the days of Moses (Deut 28.) There was possibly a brief history of the Roman temples being used for Caesar worship in the first century.

Please provide scriptural references for your theories. That is, let the scripture prove the scripture.

"... in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established." (Matthew 18:16)
The man of sin will be destroyed by Jesus when He Comes.

JLB
 
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#3
The man of sin will be destroyed by Jesus when He Comes.

JLB
So, he was destroyed in 70 A.D.

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory." (Luke 21:27)

I wonder why those are the only two places in the Bible where the term "son of perdition" is used, if they mean something entirely different?

Anyway, that is what I hope to find out in this thread.

Dan
 

JLB

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#4
So, he was destroyed in 70 A.D.

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory." (Luke 21:27)

I wonder why those are the only two places in the Bible where the term "son of perdition" is used, if they mean something entirely different?

Anyway, that is what I hope to find out in this thread.

Dan

No, Jesus comes at the end of the age to gather His people at the resurrection of the dead.

He comes once.


JLB
 

JLB

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#6
When was the end of the age?
The end of the age is when Jesus Comes to gather His people at the resurrection, on the last day.

The last Day!

The Day of the Lord!

The age to come [that age], is the next age, whereby people neither marry nor do they die anymore.


JLB
 
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#7
The end of the age is when Jesus Comes to gather His people at the resurrection, on the last day.

The last Day!

The Day of the Lord!

The age to come [that age], is the next age, whereby people neither marry nor do they die anymore.

JLB
I think I understand. See if I have the following interpreted correctly:

This is Luke 21:

7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

These were fulfilled in A.D. 70:

8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

These will be fulfilled in our future:

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

The next verse must be interpreted two different ways:

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

1) interpret v.32 as written for verses 8-24 because those events were fulfilled by 70 A.D., during the generation of those Jesus was speaking to--his apostles.

2) interpret v.32 with "you" as "they" and "this" as "that" beginning at verse 25 because the remainder of the verses will be fulfilled in our future:

These will be also fulfilled in our future:

33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Did I interpret correctly?

Dan
 
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#8
The son of perdition is not an individual, but a title that denotes those who will inherit perdition for whatever reason given.
 

JLB

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#10
Paul wrote of the Son of Perdition:

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;" (2 Thessalonians 2:3)

So did Jesus:

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." (John 17:12)

The son of perdition Paul wrote about also had this characteristic:

"[He] opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." (2 Thessalonians 2:3)

The one Jesus spoke of is generally assumed to be Judas. Recall when he was being arrested:

"Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way: That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none." (John 18:8-9)

Were they the same?


Some background:

According to conservative estimates, the Gospel of John was written in the 50's. The generally accepted theory is a later date. Second Thessalonians is generally agreed to have been written by Paul in the early 50's.

There are no additional references regarding the temple Paul wrote about in Thessalonians, whether it was in Jerusalem, Rome, or elsewhere. There was a temple in Jerusalem, and there were some in the Roman Empire, when Paul wrote the epistle.

The one in Jerusalem was already targeted for destruction, as far back as the days of Moses (Deut 28.) There was possibly a brief history of the Roman temples being used for Caesar worship in the first century.

Please provide scriptural references for your theories. That is, let the scripture prove the scripture.

"... in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established." (Matthew 18:16)
He is called "the prince who is to come" in Daniel 9:26.


JLB
 
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#11
He [the son of perdition] is called "the prince who is to come" in Daniel 9:26.

JLB
I interpret the prince to be Titus; but I will not rule out him being Christ:

"The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city." (Matt 22:2-7)

"For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth." (Rom 9:17)

"But I will strengthen the arms of the king of Babylon, and the arms of Pharaoh shall fall down; and they shall know that I am the Lord, when I shall put my sword into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall stretch it out upon the land of Egypt." (Ezekiel 30:25)

"Thus saith the Lord God of Israel; Behold, I will turn back the weapons of war that are in your hands, wherewith ye fight against the king of Babylon, and against the Chaldeans, which besiege you without the walls, and I will assemble them into the midst of this city. And I myself will fight against you with an outstretched hand and with a strong arm, even in anger, and in fury, and in great wrath." (Jer 21:4-5)


"Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the Lord, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations." (Jer 25:9)

Dan
 

JLB

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#12
I interpret the prince to be Titus; but I will not rule out him being Christ:

"The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city." (Matt 22:2-7)

"For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth." (Rom 9:17)

"But I will strengthen the arms of the king of Babylon, and the arms of Pharaoh shall fall down; and they shall know that I am the Lord, when I shall put my sword into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall stretch it out upon the land of Egypt." (Ezekiel 30:25)

"Thus saith the Lord God of Israel; Behold, I will turn back the weapons of war that are in your hands, wherewith ye fight against the king of Babylon, and against the Chaldeans, which besiege you without the walls, and I will assemble them into the midst of this city. And I myself will fight against you with an outstretched hand and with a strong arm, even in anger, and in fury, and in great wrath." (Jer 21:4-5)


"Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the Lord, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations." (Jer 25:9)

Dan
Was Titus destroyed by the brightness of the Coming of the Lord?
 
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#13
So you guys think that Revelation has been fulfilled? except for the millennial reign, or do you think that is symbolic?
 
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#14
Was Titus destroyed by the brightness of the Coming of the Lord?
No. Please re-read my previous post. Titus was an instrument of God to carry out His will. This is Titus:

"But when the king [God] heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth [his general Titus and] his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city." (Matt 22:7)

Dan
 
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#15
Was Titus destroyed by the brightness of the Coming of the Lord?
JLB,

The destruction of Jerusalem was prophesied in Deuteronomy 28 by Moses 1500 years before it occurred. The reason for the destruction is summarized in Deuteronomy 31:29, where it is written by Moses the prophet:

"For I know that after my death ye [Israel] will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands."

We all know that prophecy to be true--that much evil befell the children of Israel in the latter days, from the horrors of the destruction of Jerusalem and the Israeli cities around 70 A.D., all the way up to the horrors of the concentration camps of WWII. Along the way my relatives, the "Jews," were kicked out of 109 countries, and persecuted in about as many more; fulfilling Moses' prophecy beyond what is found in the simplicity of his words. Have they learned anything?

Dan
 
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#16
So you guys think that Revelation has been fulfilled? except for the millennial reign, or do you think that is symbolic?
I believe it is fulfilled, except for the defeat of Satan (who is currently deceiving the nations;) which is followed by the final judgement and associated events (e.g., the destruction of the enemy of death.) In a nutshell.

Where do you think we are in the order of events?

Dan
 
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JLB

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#17
JLB,

The destruction of Jerusalem was prophesied in Deuteronomy 28 by Moses 1500 years before it occurred. The reason for the destruction is summarized in Deuteronomy 31:29, where it is written by Moses the prophet:

"For I know that after my death ye [Israel] will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands."

We all know that prophecy to be true--that much evil befell the children of Israel in the latter days, from the horrors of the destruction of Jerusalem and the Israeli cities around 70 A.D., all the way up to the horrors of the concentration camps of WWII. Along the way my relatives, the "Jews," were kicked out of 109 countries, and persecuted in about as many more; fulfilling Moses' prophecy beyond what is found in the simplicity of his words. Have they learned anything?

Dan

So Moses the prophet prophesied of the second time the Temple was to be destroyed, and just skipped over the first time it was destroyed by the Babylonians?


JLB
 
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#18
So Moses the prophet prophesied of the second time the Temple was to be destroyed, and just skipped over the first time it was destroyed by the Babylonians?
JLB
JBL,

I believe Moses mentioned the captivity in Deut 30, and maybe 32. I don't recall exactly. But in Deut 28 he not only prophecies the siege and cannibalism that occurred in Jerusalem in AD 70; but also prophecies the finality of the event. There was none of the typical "but if you be good little sheep," I will "bring you back into my fold," or I will "bring again your captivity," or anything like that. It was final. These are the last 5 verses:

"And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the Lord shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind: And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear day and night, and shalt have none assurance of thy life: In the morning thou shalt say, Would God it were even! and at even thou shalt say, Would God it were morning! for the fear of thine heart wherewith thou shalt fear, and for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see. And the Lord shall bring thee into Egypt again with ships, by the way whereof I spake unto thee, Thou shalt see it no more again: and there ye shall be sold unto your enemies for bondmen and bondwomen, and no man shall buy you." (Deut 28:65-68)

The next verse, Deut 29:1, is an entirely new topic. This was not so unexpected to those of us with the benefit of hindsight.

Recall that God gave these instructions to Israel regarding the current occupants of the "Promised Land:"

"Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places: And ye shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein: for I have given you the land to possess it." (Numbers 33:52-53)

But God warned Israel what would happen should they fail to drive out all the inhabitants of the land. He clearly states He will do unto Israel what he planned to do unto the inhabitants they failed to drive out:

“But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell. Moreover it shall come to pass, that I shall do unto you, as I thought to do unto them.” (Numbers 33:55-56)

This--the highlighted part--is the punishment:

"And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the Lord thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish. As the nations which the Lord destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the Lord your God." (Deut 8:19-20)

They were destined for destruction, or as Isaiah lamented in his prophecy:

"Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah." (Isaiah 1:9, referenced in Rom 9:29)

Dan
 
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#19
Was Titus destroyed by the brightness of the Coming of the Lord?
You know, JLB, when I first replied to this, I was thinking, why would he asked such a bizarre question?

Then it dawned on me. You had previously misinterpreted Daniel 9:26. You wrote:

He [the son of perdition] is called "the prince who is to come" in Daniel 9:26
And I replied,

"I interpret the prince to be Titus; but I will not rule out him being Christ,"

But I failed to mention that you had misinterpreted Daniel 9:26 in that you assumed the possessive noun, "prince," in the "people of the prince" was anything other than a servant of God, or the Messiah. Recall:

"And he [Messiah] shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he [Messiah] shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he [Messiah] shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." (Daniel 9:27)

I know I wrote that I believe it was Titus; but Christ might be the better candidate since Christ (the Messiah) "shall make it desolate." And, after all, the Roman Armies were Christ's armies.

Dan
 

JLB

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#20
You know, JLB, when I first replied to this, I was thinking, why would he asked such a bizarre question?

Then it dawned on me. You had previously misinterpreted Daniel 9:26. You wrote:



And I replied,

"I interpret the prince to be Titus; but I will not rule out him being Christ,"

But I failed to mention that you had misinterpreted Daniel 9:26 in that you assumed the possessive noun, "prince," in the "people of the prince" was anything other than a servant of God, or the Messiah. Recall:

"And he [Messiah] shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he [Messiah] shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he [Messiah] shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." (Daniel 9:27)

I know I wrote that I believe it was Titus; but Christ might be the better candidate since Christ (the Messiah) "shall make it desolate." And, after all, the Roman Armies were Christ's armies.

Dan
Let me get this straight.

You say you interpret the prince who is to come as being Titus.

But, you won't rule out it being Christ.

Which is another way of saying, you simply don't know who it refers to.

Then you turn around and tell me that I misinterpret verse 26.


Now that is truly funny!


JLB