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Who was the Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition?

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#41
Will you then tell them that he is the messiah?
I have already told my family that if the forces of antichrist do, in fact, build a so-called "third temple of god" on earth; to keep their distance, and to beware of charlatans bearing templar gifts. :shades
 

JLB

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#42
The son of perdition is the false messiah who will be revealed in his own time.

If you don't know his name, then it is clear he has not been revealed yet.


JLB
 
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#43
I admit, much of this stuff is very hard to understand and can be interpreted in many different ways. The preterist view however, (That the temple has already been destroyed and there will be no third temple) doesn't seem to make sense in light of Revelation 11:1-2

Revelation 11:1-2
11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months./

If there is no third temple to be built, then what is this passage talking about?
 
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#44
A side note: Those "...forty and two months..." equate to 3 years, 5 months - close to the 3-1/2 years that is used in varying places in scripture.
 
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#45
I admit, much of this stuff is very hard to understand and can be interpreted in many different ways. The preterist view however, (That the temple has already been destroyed and there will be no third temple) doesn't seem to make sense in light of Revelation 11:1-2

Revelation 11:1-2
11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months./

If there is no third temple to be built, then what is this passage talking about?
If you accept that Revelation was written prior to the fall of Jerusalem, then this problem disappears.
 
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#46
If you accept that Revelation was written prior to the fall of Jerusalem, then this problem disappears.
I suppose with that criterion of the fall of Jerusalem one must accept that Jesus soon coming was forty years instead of two thousand years which is to be the end of the age in which not one of that generation failed to see all those things happen. Next would need come the supposition that Mat 24:21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" spoke of 1.1 million killed in 70 AD instead of one third of all mankind to be killed in Rev 9:18. By these three was the third part of men killed.

Of course Satan was locked up and we are no longer have that power to resist, the sower overtakes the reaper, and all nations go to Jerusalem once a year to worship or fail to receive rain. There seems to be one date adequate to build a whole set of “It’s all over” doctrines on. The all eyes shall see Him is adequately explained away by a Jewish historian evidently given eyes to see things none others did including all the invading armies of Rome.

The following article upset one member which I have no idea the truth of it; maybe you can set me straight.
http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/c/chariots-in-clouds.html
Josephus (A.D. 75) - Jewish Historian
"Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations (**), they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish Wars, VI-V-3).
(**) I would ask what ministration of any Jewish priest was sacred after Christ?

A supernatural apparition was seen, too amazing to be believed. What I am now to relate would, I imagine, be dismissed as imaginary, had this not been vouched for by eyewitnesses, then followed by subsequent disasters that deserved to be thus signalized. For before sunset chariots were seen in the air over the whole country, and armed battalions speeding through the clouds and encircling the cities.” (rendered in Chilton)

I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable.
A supernatural apparition was seen, too amazing to be believed.
What I am now to relate would, I imagine, be dismissed as imaginary.
I agree with you Josephus; I dismiss it as your imagination.
 
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#47
If you accept that Revelation was written prior to the fall of Jerusalem, then this problem disappears.

...and if I don't? :)
Aw, that would be too easy brother and would discourage further investigation and study. In and of itself may seem to take care of that problem, but it would seem to create a host of other problems immediately. Just off the top of my head without study I think, so the great tribulation is over and probably even the millennial reign? Wot? When did the a third of the earth die? No, too easy.

What we do know is that divine genius put that book together in that form. It is written in such a way that the average mind can not perceive it's secrets, nor can the wise mind! It takes illumination from the Holy Spirit for understanding, and for those who have more will be given. Those who can be trusted with little, can be trusted with more and then it shall be given. Not before. There are holier men than you or I who have lived, and a lifetime of dedication and study and seeking the Lord was what it took for them to receive the answers to certain things. That's how God works. You do give an interesting answer though. I need to pray brother.
 

JLB

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#48
A side note: Those "...forty and two months..." equate to 3 years, 5 months - close to the 3-1/2 years that is used in varying places in scripture.

I had always thought that 42 months was 3 1/2 years.

A biblical year being 12, 30 day months.


JLB
 
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#49
A side note: Those "...forty and two months..." equate to 3 years, 5 months - close to the 3-1/2 years that is used in varying places in scripture.
I get 3 years 6 months. 3 years X 12 months per year = 36 months + 6 months = 42.
You lost a month somewhere sister!

(Oh JLB beat me to it) Good morning JLB! :)
 

JLB

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#50
I get 3 years 6 months. 3 years X 12 months per year = 36 months + 6 months = 42.
You lost a month somewhere sister!

(Oh JLB beat me to it) Good morning JLB! :)
Good morning to you, beloved Edward. :amen
 
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#51
I suppose with that criterion of the fall of Jerusalem one must accept that Jesus soon coming was forty years instead of two thousand years which is to be the end of the age in which not one of that generation failed to see all those things happen. Next would need come the supposition that Mat 24:21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" spoke of 1.1 million killed in 70 AD instead of one third of all mankind to be killed in Rev 9:18. By these three was the third part of men killed.

Of course Satan was locked up and we are no longer have that power to resist, the sower overtakes the reaper, and all nations go to Jerusalem once a year to worship or fail to receive rain. There seems to be one date adequate to build a whole set of “It’s all over” doctrines on. The all eyes shall see Him is adequately explained away by a Jewish historian evidently given eyes to see things none others did including all the invading armies of Rome.

The following article upset one member which I have no idea the truth of it; maybe you can set me straight.
http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/c/chariots-in-clouds.html
Josephus (A.D. 75) - Jewish Historian
"Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations (**), they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish Wars, VI-V-3).
(**) I would ask what ministration of any Jewish priest was sacred after Christ?

A supernatural apparition was seen, too amazing to be believed. What I am now to relate would, I imagine, be dismissed as imaginary, had this not been vouched for by eyewitnesses, then followed by subsequent disasters that deserved to be thus signalized. For before sunset chariots were seen in the air over the whole country, and armed battalions speeding through the clouds and encircling the cities.” (rendered in Chilton)

I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable.
A supernatural apparition was seen, too amazing to be believed.
What I am now to relate would, I imagine, be dismissed as imaginary.
I agree with you Josephus; I dismiss it as your imagination.
Are you trying to be cute? If not, then how can anybody trust your reading comprehension? Josephus doesn't dismiss the phenomenon as imagination. Rather, he reports it because of eyewitnesses and the prophetic symbolism it held in retrospect.

Every one of your objections to an early Revelation is based on a supposition of how you would like to see scripture fulfilled. Each of your objections can be overcome if you open yourself up to examining the possibilities of how Jesus' words could be understood as fulfilled irrespective of personal preference. Here is a hint to help with one stumbling block; 'there are three types of people in the world'.
 
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#52
...and if I don't? :)
Aw, that would be too easy brother and would discourage further investigation and study. In and of itself may seem to take care of that problem, but it would seem to create a host of other problems immediately. Just off the top of my head without study I think, so the great tribulation is over and probably even the millennial reign? Wot? When did the a third of the earth die? No, too easy.

What we do know is that divine genius put that book together in that form. It is written in such a way that the average mind can not perceive it's secrets, nor can the wise mind! It takes illumination from the Holy Spirit for understanding, and for those who have more will be given. Those who can be trusted with little, can be trusted with more and then it shall be given. Not before. There are holier men than you or I who have lived, and a lifetime of dedication and study and seeking the Lord was what it took for them to receive the answers to certain things. That's how God works. You do give an interesting answer though. I need to pray brother.
Oh good Lord! Accepting an early Revelation isn't too easy, for it opens up a landscape that has to explored, with all of the missteps inherent in real discovery. Have the God given courage to investigate and study beyond your comfort zone, secure in the knowledge that, as a Christian, the Holy Spirit will pull you back if you stray too far (hyper-preterism is too far). These other problems have answers, but you have to be willing to deal with them honestly and in good faith. You get the same hint to help with your last question; 'there are three types of people in the world'.
 
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#53
Every one of your objections to an early Revelation is based on a supposition of how you would like to see scripture fulfilled.
Cute? No, it appears you can believe man's reports of something that can appear as imagination. Take away the ramblings of one Jewish historian not even mentioned in scripture and give me substantiation to your claims.

Your doctrines are so filled with holes, the whole of them is based on the assumption of a single date. Show me one instance of one third of mankind slayed in 70 AD (Rev 9:15) fitting the scripture of Mat 24:21. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
 

JLB

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#54
Are you trying to be cute? If not, then how can anybody trust your reading comprehension? Josephus doesn't dismiss the phenomenon as imagination. Rather, he reports it because of eyewitnesses and the prophetic symbolism it held in retrospect.

Every one of your objections to an early Revelation is based on a supposition of how you would like to see scripture fulfilled. Each of your objections can be overcome if you open yourself up to examining the possibilities of how Jesus' words could be understood as fulfilled irrespective of personal preference. Here is a hint to help with one stumbling block; 'there are three types of people in the world'.

Did Josephus experience the Coming of The Lord Jesus from heaven, as he took vengeance in flaming fire upon all the Roman soldiers. 2 Thessalonian 1:7-8

Do you have have quotes from His writings where he recorded those things, because the supposed "visions" or apparitions certainly don't qualify.

Every eye will see Him, even those who pierced him...

All the tribes will see the Son of Man Coming on the clouds of heaven, and mourn.


Anything in His writings about that?

It seems that those who wish to validate their particular religion, always have some kind of special vision, or message that is outside of scripture.

Whether it is Joseph Smith and his angel, with that special "revelation", or The Virgin Mary and the apparitions at wherever...

How about what Jesus taught us from the bible?


JLB
 
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#55
Oh good Lord! Accepting an early Revelation isn't too easy, for it opens up a landscape that has to explored, with all of the missteps inherent in real discovery. Have the God given courage to investigate and study beyond your comfort zone, secure in the knowledge that, as a Christian, the Holy Spirit will pull you back if you stray too far (hyper-preterism is too far). These other problems have answers, but you have to be willing to deal with them honestly and in good faith. You get the same hint to help with your last question; 'there are three types of people in the world'.
You'll ridicule me for not easily accepting something that has not really been substantiated with scripture and is just the easy way out of a difficult question? :) Ok. I'm sorry brother but I can't accept that, think what you will but I hate carving stuff in stone too hastily, especially things that I do not understand. It just doesn't sit well with me. The Holy Spirit leads me into many truths, but some things, it seems as if he leaves for me to figure out for myself, or perhaps it is that I am not ready to receive those truths yet. It keeps echoing in my feeble flesh mind that I am not supposed to lean upon my own understanding anyway.

So the only thing I can do, is to continue reading, praying, and seeking the Lord and the understanding of things through revelations of the Spirit. I thank God that this is not a salvational issue so even if I don't get to understand it now...one day all will be revealed and I will understand. You're taking a very curious position on this, I must say. I would hesitate to p'shaw things of scripture that are not well understood, and to hold up a mans writings seemingly above the scriptures is for sure a mistake, I can feel this in my heart easily. I take no offense at you or anything of the sort so don't get me wrong. But...Wow, brother.

To take the position that you have seems to me to create more questions than it solves. No offense, but this has to be backed up by scripture and would have to agree with all relevant scriptures. Beyond my comfort zone would be a misunderstanding on your part of me. It would seem that the position that you are asking me to accept, is one which would seemingly take me into a greater zone of comfort, hehe.

If you accept that Revelation was written prior to the fall of Jerusalem, then this problem disappears.
See? Then my problem 'disappears'. I do believe that this is the wrong approach brother.

Blessings.
 
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#57
Cute? No, it appears you can believe man's reports of something that can appear as imagination. Take away the ramblings of one Jewish historian not even mentioned in scripture and give me substantiation to your claims.

Your doctrines are so filled with holes, the whole of them is based on the assumption of a single date. Show me one instance of one third of mankind slayed in 70 AD (Rev 9:15) fitting the scripture of Mat 24:21. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Anything can appear as imagination, just ask Thomas. I have not made any claims, I only responded to your misrepresentation of Josephus. You also don't know my 'doctrines', which have nothing to do with any single date beyond recognizing that Revelation was given before Jerusalem fell. Rev 9:15 is not even applicable to interpreting Mat 24:21, which is obvious when you know how to measure the third part of man.
 
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#58
You'll ridicule me for not easily accepting something that has not really been substantiated with scripture and is just the easy way out of a difficult question? :) Ok. I'm sorry brother but I can't accept that, think what you will but I hate carving stuff in stone too hastily, especially things that I do not understand. It just doesn't sit well with me. The Holy Spirit leads me into many truths, but some things, it seems as if he leaves for me to figure out for myself, or perhaps it is that I am not ready to receive those truths yet. It keeps echoing in my feeble flesh mind that I am not supposed to lean upon my own understanding anyway.

So the only thing I can do, is to continue reading, praying, and seeking the Lord and the understanding of things through revelations of the Spirit. I thank God that this is not a salvational issue so even if I don't get to understand it now...one day all will be revealed and I will understand. You're taking a very curious position on this, I must say. I would hesitate to p'shaw things of scripture that are not well understood, and to hold up a mans writings seemingly above the scriptures is for sure a mistake, I can feel this in my heart easily. I take no offense at you or anything of the sort so don't get me wrong. But...Wow, brother.

To take the position that you have seems to me to create more questions than it solves. No offense, but this has to be backed up by scripture and would have to agree with all relevant scriptures. Beyond my comfort zone would be a misunderstanding on your part of me. It would seem that the position that you are asking me to accept, is one which would seemingly take me into a greater zone of comfort, hehe.



See? Then my problem 'disappears'. I do believe that this is the wrong approach brother.

Blessings.
If I ridicule you, it is for posting a problem, but then rejecting a solution out of hand because you believe it contradicts some other ideas you've chosen to accept. You're in the preterism discussions subforum; what kind of answer did you expect? Just know that I am not going to post solutions that I am not confident in, which means I've personally already resolved any obvious concerns, even though I'm loath to dribble out all my reasoning because it is usually so interconnected. I'd rather give hints and point people in the right direction so they can work stuff out for themselves. When trying to resolve apparent biblical contradictions you don't have to follow only one line of reasoning at a time. Don't carve anything in stone, instead write in chalk so you can backtrack if certain paths deadend, or just let obstructions sit until a workaround appears.

I didn't bring up Josephus, in fact I've never actually sat down and read him because my interpretative solutions don't depend on anything he recorded. Rather, I identify patterns in the biblical narrative and see if they apply to unresolved biblical questions. If you can humor the idea that Revelation was given before the temple was destroyed, then the particular problem you've described disappears. Many more problems open up as you've realized, but that doesn't mean they are insurmountable, and claiming they are is just defeatist. Finding solutions to perceived biblical contradictions requires one challenge their perceptions, because as Christians we don't believe the bible is in error.
 
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#59
Many more problems open up as you've realized, but that doesn't mean they are insurmountable, and claiming they are is just defeatist. Finding solutions to perceived biblical contradictions requires one challenge their perceptions, because as Christians we don't believe the bible is in error.
I didn't say they're insurmountable, I asked for scriptures, not hints. Back any of your position up with more than vagueness brother. The big obvious one, others have asked for also. Help a brother out. When did 1/3 of the earth die?
 
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#60
Rev 9:15 is not even applicable to interpreting Mat 24:21,
When is one third of men to be slayed by 200 million?
Rev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
Rev 9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

The fact that Revelation would not have been written at the time believed by Preterists is that John would have made the mistake of writing Rev 9:15 had it been so; I think he would have questioned the credentials of Jesus' angel. We can get to Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
 
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