Why did God create humans with the freewill to sin only to re-create glorified humans without the ability to sin?

[chessman]

I have wondered similarly about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Why did God create the garden for us, give us everything we could possibly need, and then plant a forbidden tree in its midst?

So that He could do His will and deliver us from Evil on Earth:

So do not be like them, for your Father knows of the things which you have a need before you ask Him. Therefore, you be praying as follows, ‘Our Father in the heavens: let Your name be treated-as-holy. Let Your kingdom come. Let Your will be done — as in heaven, also on earth. And do not bring us into a temptation, but deliver us from the evil one ’.​

Matthew 6:8-10,13 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 6:8-10,13&version=DLNT

 

[Jim Parker]

On a recent STR Ask podcast, Greg Koukl was asked: “Since we will presumably have free will in Heaven and yet be unable to sin, why didn’t God just make things that way in the first place?”

Greg’s response: “I think that is one of the most difficult questions to answer and I have a general answer but it’s not one I am certain of because this is another one of those; 'Why did God … kind of questions.” Greg's typically response to those kind of questions (Why did God…do such and such) is; If the Bible doesn’t say why God did such and such, then we are guessing at the answer, and likely wrong.

Given the unsubstantiated assumption made in the questioner’s question (we will be unable to sin in Heaven), how would you answer the question? I have some thoughts to post later.


https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/strask-with-greg-koukl/id1030958668?mt=2&i=1000409237166

God gave us free will to be able to choose to love Him.
We were created in His image and God has free will.
To be without free will makes man less than human and less than the image of God.

Now, that's what GOd did. WHY He did that, well, ask Him when you see him.

 

[Razeontherock]

Yes, that was the idea behind my questions. It does seem a bit strange for God to create a couple of creatures (Adam and Eve) that were spiritually and physically inferior to the fallen angels, and then just let them wander around through an unprotected garden where Satan had free access to enter.

That is EXACTLY the dilemma we find ourselves in! Earth is truly between heaven and hell. We need to come face to face with the stark realization that we live in a battleground, and it will never be comfortable. Christianity does not change the setting, that is still the first story ...

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

That is EXACTLY the dilemma we find ourselves in! Earth is truly between heaven and hell. We need to come face to face with the stark realization that we live in a battleground, and it will never be comfortable. Christianity does not change the setting, that is still the first story ...

Amen brother. Earth fell due to human disobedience of God by the first humans. The same pattern continued till date. But praise be to the Lord Jesus Christ our Lord who has provided a way for redemption and eternal life in His kingdom--- by His death on the cross . Oh what a life that will be! Under the rule of the blameless Holy one in whom no sin was found. What is His expectation from us believers/ followers? That we not only believe but also choose to do God's will versus our own will. Much as Jesus did CONTINUALLY. Everything then is forgiven and enjoy an eternity with Him whose will you chose to do and therefore in you He shall be well pleased.That's the simple message of our Lord Christ . So much is taught in Churches that this tiny ( but vital) message sometimes gets buried in a heap of verses and teachings. I exhort all pastors who are my friends to start with this truth and end also end their sermon with this reminder everytime they preach on whichever subject they choose to. Exhort Christians to LEARN to do the Will of God over their own. But of course it's not easy. But spectacularly rewarding I try this little " game," everyday . Lord tell me what would YOU want me to do in this situation. Try it guys . It's an amazing game. And by playing this little game we directly involved God in our day to day life , and I believe He loves that!
John 14:20 ►
On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.
John 15:11 ►
I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete.
John 4:34 ►
"My food," said Jesus, "is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work."

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Here's the "cleaned up" question.
If God was complete and not lonely and doesn't need mankind then why did He bother with us to begin with?

Because God is good.
If you are capable of something but have never done it...once you Know about it you are itching to try it.

Part of goodness is the ability to forgive. But God had no one to forgive. God is incapable of error. So that is why we exist.
But make no mistake in thinking that God needs anyone to help him exercise this. He has plenty of people already...and some really bad guys that asked for forgiveness already. We get to go along for the ride but the need isn't there.

Amen. I also think about God's great love for us prompted Him to create us. But he didn't create robots, instead he created free will creation like us. His greatest expectation from us,I believe , is to turn away from sin and LOVE all. No exceptions.Thats His will for His little children that despite having free will, we yet choose to do God's will......much like our Lord did unfailingly

 

[Razeontherock]

Yes, love as a choice among everything else we can do is meaningful. Not to say that without that choice it becomes meaningless, just that it takes on a different character in the context of the range of choices we have.
This is right along the lines of God seeking those who will worship Him in Spirit and in Truth; that cannot be separated from humbling our will before His, and submitting to His rule. Our Elder Brother and forerunner took the bitterness out of it, being our burden bearer ...
Heb 12:22-29

 

[chessman]

It's an amazing game. And by playing this little game we directly involved God in our day to day life , and I believe He loves that!
John 14:20 ►
On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

One way or the other, God’s involved in our everyday lives:

And I will request the Father, and He will give you another Helper to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth, Whom the world is not able to receive because it does not see nor know Him. You know Him because He abides with you, and will be in you. “I will not leave you as orphans. I am going to come to you.​

John 14:16-18 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 14:16-18&version=DLNT

 

[Razeontherock]

^ ^ The Gospel. Too good not to share! Those who don't believe usually don't realize it, but they don't believe because they think it's too good to be true.

There was a time you could walk up to strangers and share the Gospel, even on the rough side of a big city. Try that today with a millennial anywhere in sight and I fear it would have to come to blows. The "mercy door" is not officially closed, (as far as I can tell) but people are really sifting themselves out ...

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

^ ^ The Gospel. Too good not to share! Those who don't believe usually don't realize it, but they don't believe because they think it's too good to be true.

There was a time you could walk up to strangers and share the Gospel, even on the rough side of a big city. Try that today with a millennial anywhere in sight and I fear it would have to come to blows. The "mercy door" is not officially closed, (as far as I can tell) but people are really sifting themselves out ...

Amen. My two cents here is that Grace only applies to those believers who are willing to Obey as well. I love reading the book of Revelation , and i love to see ( picture) Jesus in the JUDGMENT mode. Now (asi write this)He is holding RAW power ( Matthew 28:18-20) and indeed He will be using that raw power to destroy earth. I'm so so glad this beautiful planet is condemned! Doomed and infected with vicious sin, it richly deserves to be destroyed. The picture of the new Jerusalem coming down from heaven is incredibly beautiful. Sorry I digressed . My point was Grace applies only to those who not only believe but obeyed as well ( or at least trued their utmost) . I'm afraid many lame believers may not make it . Ruthless teachers diluted the word and made it ridiculously simple " you believe , you're saved" . But that's not what the Word teaches . Father God hates sin . We must fight ourselves every day. ( Pick up the cross , deny ourselves daily......)

 

[childeye]

I have a problem with the term freewill. I'm never comfortable with any definitive assertion whether posed in a question or statement, that will require me as the hearer to accept a premise which is not actually qualified as definitive. I know what a will is, but what exactly a freewill implies in the mind of the person who applies the term, I do not always know.

What does faith mean and where is unbelief calculated or accounted for in a freewill theology? Therefore I must comment that even though it is more probable that it will be an act of sin that generally will be used as a means to prove that mankind has a freewill, sin cannot actually be any sure indicator of a will that is free, even because every act of sin is always predicated upon a falsehood. That is to say, that a person must first be deceived into believing in some capacity, something as true, that is in reality not true, so as to be enabled to sin.

Hence, we see that qualifying freewill through the disability to sin is antithetical to the statement that The Truth shall set you free. To say otherwise, is to not see (be blind to) the fact that Empathy, Faith, Truth and wisdom are the necessary Spiritual and Godly components of Light in a flesh and blood body, that allows men to see clearly so as to choose that which is the righteous over the unrighteous. If righteousness is something spiritual to be attained, then I assume unrighteousness exists prior to obtaining righteousness, and therefore all moral/immoral decisions are predicated on a spiritual condition of the soul accordingly and not upon the ability to make choices, nor merely the circumstance that requires a choice to be made. Titus 1:15.

And so it seems to me that by asserting that men have the freedom to decide for themselves what is righteous and unrighteous we are conflating choice/option with choice/decision by assuming that just because an option between good and evil exists, therefore mankind is free to decide to be righteous or unrighteous according to his own volition.

I submit that vanity is the means through which mankind takes for granted the Spirit of God that was bequeathed to those created in His likeness, and that this is how the darkness of corruption that defiles the hearts and minds has entered in. It makes perfect sense to me that God has foreseen and allowed for all of this, so that through such corruption, all of creation can come to worship the Spirit of God in Truth and not in vanity, through the witnessing of the wickedness that prevails through the absence of Him Whose Word is our Light. 2 Corinthians 4:7

 

[Christ_empowered]

Romans 6:16-17

My own salvation experience, upbringing, observations, and reading have led me to lean towards the TULIP view of salvation. I'm not a big fan of free will, as a concept, especially when it comes to salvation. People are shaped by external factors. Jesus, thankfully, sets us free from: sin, satan, self, death, and the world, which are the factors that shape and define the unredeemed to the -core-.

 

[chessman]

a person must first be deceived into believing in some capacity, something as true, that is in reality not true, so as to be enabled to sin.

So in the New Heaven/Earth there will be no deception thus no ‘enabling to sin’ but in the Garden of Eden there was deception thus enabling sin.

Then why not create Eden without any deception in it?

 

[childeye]

So in the New Heaven/Earth there will be no deception thus no ‘enabling to sin’ but in the Garden of Eden there was deception thus enabling sin.

Then why not create Eden without any deception in it?

Thank you for your response chessman, and great to hear from you.

Then why not create Eden without any deception in it?
I don't believe that Eden was actually created with any deception in it. But to address what I believe is to your intent, I will first point out that scripture says that all things are built upon/created through faith. And I believe this to be true even because I cannot comprehend how anyone created can actually measure to a certainty that which is believed to be Eternal.

So therein exists the occasion for one to question the validity of the Holiness of God. And I also believe that the gradual breaking down of faith would therefore be inevitable for any created or temporal being, and it begins by pondering any proposition that a created being can be greater than it's Creator. This is vanity.

So in summation, I believe the answer to the question is in the story of The Prodigal son. The Father allows the son to go out and learn for himself the value of being under the authority of his Father's house. The son when he leaves is full of pride thinking he knows better than his Father, and returns humbled seeking his Fathers forgiveness. We are all here learning how and why to worship God in Truth.

 

[DiscipleDave]

On a recent STR Ask podcast, Greg Koukl was asked: “Since we will presumably have free will in Heaven and yet be unable to sin, why didn’t God just make things that way in the first place?”

In Heaven you can do whatever you want to do. Before the Earth was created, Heaven existed, there was only one thing you could NOT do in Heaven, and that is have the Throne of God. Lucifer was created perfect in every way, He was an immortal Angel of God, one day, he created sin, by desiring to have the only thing he could not have, he desired to have the Throne of God. We are all here to be tested because of what Lucifer done. Lucifer was able to convince 1/3 of the inhabitants of Heaven to follow after him. God put a stop to it. If you want to know what God told me concerning this topic then click HERE. If you don't care what God told me, then continue to the next post, no harm done.

Greg’s response: “I think that is one of the most difficult questions to answer and I have a general answer but it’s not one I am certain of because this is another one of those; 'Why did God … kind of questions.” Greg's typically response to those kind of questions (Why did God…do such and such) is; If the Bible doesn’t say why God did such and such, then we are guessing at the answer, and likely wrong.

Given the unsubstantiated assumption made in the questioner’s question (we will be unable to sin in Heaven), how would you answer the question? I have some thoughts to post later.

Sin is transgression of the law. In Heaven there is only one law, you can't have the Throne of God. Whatever you want to do in Heaven you can do it, there is no limits to what you can do in Heaven. And i mean NONE, save, you can't have the Throne of God.


^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

Here's the "cleaned up" question.
If God was complete and not lonely and doesn't need mankind then why did He bother with us to begin with?

Humans were created to be TESTED, to see if we choose to go with satan or choose to go with God. God is not a Tyrant and is not going to force anyone to worship Him, if they do not want to worship Him. That is why God is giving all of us a choice, to either serve satan or to serve God.

Because God is good.
If you are capable of something but have never done it...once you Know about it you are itching to try it.

Part of goodness is the ability to forgive. But God had no one to forgive. God is incapable of error. So that is why we exist.

The spirit that is inside of you came from God, therefore came from Heaven. Your spirit that is immortal is here in the flesh being tested to see who you choose to obey, who you choose to serve, if you choose to Love One Another, or choose to NOT Love One Another. The Kingdom of Heaven only wants those who Love Others, and not those who love self, like satan did. We humans are put on this planet to be TESTED, to see if we will Love Others, or love self.

^i^

 

[childeye]

Humans were created to be TESTED, to see if we choose to go with satan or choose to go with God. God is not a Tyrant and is not going to force anyone to worship Him, if they do not want to worship Him. That is why God is giving all of us a choice, to either serve satan or to serve God.



The spirit that is inside of you came from God, therefore came from Heaven. Your spirit that is immortal is here in the flesh being tested to see who you choose to obey, who you choose to serve, if you choose to Love One Another, or choose to NOT Love One Another. The Kingdom of Heaven only wants those who Love Others, and not those who love self, like satan did. We humans are put on this planet to be TESTED, to see if we will Love Others, or love self.

^i^

Respectfully, I would strongly argue against any assertion that God is testing anyone to see if they would go with Satan. I find it to be a contradictory narrative to suggest that God would be a tyrant if He forced anyone to worship him, while knowing that scripture already teaches that those who do not worship Him will go into the Eternal lake of fire.

The premise that someone chooses to obey Satan or God is problematic, since the devil is presently deceiving all those who are obedient to him. For example, we know that the Christ was persecuted and crucified by those who thought they were serving God, but were actually serving Satan.

Moreover, the suggestion that to Love is a choice or decision to be made is not actually true. Love is a Spirit that is the Light of man which makes a man righteous. No man can be righteous without Love. Love is kindness and empathy for others, the ability to feel and share in the joys and pains of others. Cruelty and deceit are not a choice or prerogative for those who have this Spirit that manifests Godliness, just as God cannot choose to be cruel or a liar. Love is the Spiritual force for goodness towards one another and we were bequeathed with this Holy Spirit only by God's grace through faith. For God is Love, and Spirit begets Spirit wherein we know we must be Fathered by Him to be His children.

The following statement is a True statement that should be understood along with all of it's theological implications:
True worship is drawn out by the object of worship.

This necessarily means that True worship of God is indeed forced out of a person through the revelation of Who God is as a Person, and the subsequent realization that God is so absolutely worthy and has always been worthy of our praise and worship. So to suggest He would be a tyrant if He forced us to worship Him is not a narrative that is true, since it proposes that we will be the ones to decide whether or not God is worthy of our praise.

 

[childeye]

But he didn't create robots, instead he created free will creation like us.

The term "free" in front of "will" is a subjective and relative term, so as to imply that the will is free from something in some measure. However, without qualifying what the will is free from and to what degree, then it serves no clear purpose and does not actually denote anything.

In your above statement, since you provide the example of a robot as a means to denote what is not a free will, I am compelled to offer this observation. A robot is a non-living machine with no soul, and as such I see no will whatsoever in a robot. You seem to be a reasonable fellow. I therefore would kindly request that you consider whether you honestly believe that those like myself, who do not agree with a free will theology, are actually asserting that people are robots. And also therefore to consider whether it is a reasonable mind that would insist that either there is a freewill or we are just robots. Thank you for your consideration.

Mankind is a flesh and blood existence with a spiritual component which animates the body. As such there is a will of the flesh which is hardwired to like pleasure and comfort, and to dislike pain and discomfort. So also there is a will of the spirit, and this Spirit is also the empathy which causes a person to feel the pain and pleasure of others. These two wills war against one another, since the spirit would rather accept carnal pain and discomfort and forgo pleasure and comfort, rather than to cause others pain and discomfort so as to secure pleasure and comfort for one's self.

Hence if one is spiritually minded, they only know peace and life through loving others as they would want to be loved. While in contrast the carnal mind is dead and does not even contemplate what is the spiritual as it seeks it's own carnal comfort regardless of the pain to others. I happen to believe that cruelty is the perversion of empathy that gains pleasure from watching others suffer by being glad it's not you. These circumstances described in scripture and recognized by the enlightened, clearly indicate that there exists predispositions or inclinations behind all moral and immoral behavior that are subject to either a carnal or spiritual impetus.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

The term "free" in front of "will" is a subjective and relative term, so as to imply that the will is free from something in some measure. However, without qualifying what the will is free from and to what degree, then it serves no clear purpose and does not actually denote anything.

In your above statement, since you provide the example of a robot as a means to denote what is not a free will, I am compelled to offer this observation. A robot is a non-living machine with no soul, and as such I see no will whatsoever in a robot. You seem to be a reasonable fellow. I therefore would kindly request that you consider whether you honestly believe that those like myself, who do not agree with a free will theology, are actually asserting that people are robots. And also therefore to consider whether it is a reasonable mind that would insist that either there is a freewill or we are just robots. Thank you for your consideration.

Mankind is a flesh and blood existence with a spiritual component which animates the body. As such there is a will of the flesh which is hardwired to like pleasure and comfort, and to dislike pain and discomfort. So also there is a will of the spirit, and this Spirit is also the empathy which causes a person to feel the pain and pleasure of others. These two wills war against one another, since the spirit would rather accept carnal pain and discomfort and forgo pleasure and comfort, rather than to cause others pain and discomfort so as to secure pleasure and comfort for one's self.

Hence if one is spiritually minded, they only know peace and life through loving others as they would want to be loved. While in contrast the carnal mind is dead and does not even contemplate what is the spiritual as it seeks it's own carnal comfort regardless of the pain to others. I happen to believe that cruelty is the perversion of empathy that gains pleasure from watching others suffer by being glad it's not you. These circumstances described in scripture and recognized by the enlightened, clearly indicate that there exists predispositions or inclinations behind all moral and immoral behavior that are subject to either a carnal or spiritual impetus.

"The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak"........Matthew 26: 41

And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." --------Genesis 3:22
Brother it is not my desire to change your mind or heart about your perception of free Will. According to me the entire premise of Salvation rests on that CHOICE, our volition if you will, whether we wish to do evil or accept the Lord as our savior and follow Him. I believe we were given a free will to choose good or evil. Righteous or unrighteous. Love or hate. Compassion or Callousness. We can choose to be good, bad or ugly. And every choice we make has a consequence. Therefore how can we not have a free will to choose the actions, words, and thoughts (what we elect to think). I believe the Lord continually searches hearts of men and women, minutely observing every choice we make, every word we speak, and every thought that we think. Yes sir I believe at times we are under a scanner!

Psalm 139:4 ►
"Before a word is on my tongue you, LORD, know it completely.
Jeremiah 17:10 ►
"I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward each person according to their conduct, according to what their deeds deserve."

 

[childeye]

Brother it is not my desire to change your mind or heart about your perception of free Will.

Thank you Rajesh for your kind response.

What I am addressing is what I find problematic or perhaps what I find missing in your understanding of free will in regards to what you have presented for consumption on this thread. I have asked for you to re-consider the definitive assertion that without a free will we are simply robots. I believe it is a mistake to say that, and I have respectfully pointed out why I do not find the assertion to be a valid dichotomy pertaining to the term "free". To be clear, a true dichotomy would be a free will as opposed to an enslaved will or a will that is not subjugate as opposed to a will that is subjugate. Those are true dichotomies suitable for supporting a sound reasoning.

According to me the entire premise of Salvation rests on that CHOICE, our volition if you will, whether we wish to do evil or accept the Lord as our savior and follow Him.

Okay, but isn't confessing the Christ about believing from the heart? Wouldn't displaying a Love that would choose to suffer a zealous cruelty and scorn, and death on a cross for the sake of sinners, have anything to do towards moving someone to believe from the heart? I would testify that it requires a spiritual revelation to believe in the Christ. I cannot not believe and then believe again according to my own discretion. And nor can you if you have the Holy Spirit. Moreover scripture also testifies that it requires the Holy Spirit to confess Christ as Lord. This statement is true: True worship is drawn out by the object of worship.

I believe we were given a free will to choose good or evil.

When and by whom were we given this so called "ability" to choose to do good or evil, or by extension the thought that we can choose for ourselves in opposition to God? The way I see it, obedience to God is based on faith or trust in His Holy Character and always has been. It certainly has never been based on the existence of any perceived ability of equal opportunity to disobey, which in reality would simply be the distrusting of God through any false premise wherein we might presume to think we know better than God.

We can choose to be good, bad or ugly. And every choice we make has a consequence. Therefore how can we not have a free will to choose the actions, words, and thoughts (what we elect to think).

Since when do we decide what we will think? If I say I won't think of a brown cow, will I have not thought of one? We're supposed to examine every thought and whether they are of Christ. If I hear a voice saying that I can choose to do evil according to my own discretion, I don't believe it's Christ.

Of course our choices will have consequences, but that doesn't mean that we always see the consequences of our choices before we make them. Otherwise there can be no true repentance. For example, one cannot truly repent if they are not truly sorry. And if they are truly sorry, then they would not have done it in the first place had they known the suffering that they would be handing to others before hand. That is if they care. After all, all moral/immoral choices are about how our choices will effect our fellow man. And that is precisely why there is no free will (self determination) in the moral purview. Philippians 2:13. Love is what directs our will to do what is good and restricts us from doing evil. The point is that God is Love and we do become abominations apart from His Spirit since there is only carnal impetus otherwise. One cannot even be sorry without Love, and it is actually love that compels our Godly sorrow and not our volition. Sorrow is not voluntary and neither is repentance. We are not supposed to think that we decided to do good or be good or even presume we can. We are supposed to thank God for His Word which guides our reasoning and does not give value to any vanity which is of the flesh. Therefore we cannot have a free will morally speaking, unless the term is meant to denote a will free from the slavery of sin.

I believe the Lord continually searches hearts of men and women, minutely observing every choice we make, every word we speak, and every thought that we think. Yes sir I believe at times we are under a scanner!

I agree with you here. But with as much humility as God has afforded me, I would point out that this is why I have carefully considered that there is a difference between being seen by God as thinking and believing that God's Spirit is what makes a man good, wherein I am truly thankful for his wisdom, and being seen by God as believing and thinking that it is through my volition that I volunteer to be good, lest God punish me.

Thank you for your discourse, and I hope we can come to an understanding, speaking and teaching the same things in Christs' Name, Jesus.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Thank you Rajesh for your kind response.

What I am addressing is what I find problematic or perhaps what I find missing in your understanding of free will in regards to what you have presented for consumption on this thread. I have asked for you to re-consider the definitive assertion that without a free will we are simply robots. I believe it is a mistake to say that, and I have respectfully pointed out why I do not find the assertion to be a valid dichotomy pertaining to the term "free". To be clear, a true dichotomy would be a free will as opposed to an enslaved will or a will that is not subjugate as opposed to a will that is subjugate. Those are true dichotomies suitable for supporting a sound reasoning.

Okay, but isn't confessing the Christ about believing from the heart? Wouldn't displaying a Love that would choose to suffer a zealous cruelty and scorn, and death on a cross for the sake of sinners, have anything to do towards moving someone to believe from the heart? I would testify that it requires a spiritual revelation to believe in the Christ. I cannot not believe and then believe again according to my own discretion. And nor can you if you have the Holy Spirit. Moreover scripture also testifies that it requires the Holy Spirit to confess Christ as Lord. This statement is true: True worship is drawn out by the object of worship.


When and by whom were we given this so called "ability" to choose to do good or evil, or by extension the thought that we can choose for ourselves in opposition to God? The way I see it, obedience to God is based on faith or trust in His Holy Character and always has been. It certainly has never been based on the existence of any perceived ability of equal opportunity to disobey, which in reality would simply be the distrusting of God through any false premise wherein we might presume to think we know better than God.

Since when do we decide what we will think? If I say I won't think of a brown cow, will I have not thought of one? We're supposed to examine every thought and whether they are of Christ. If I hear a voice saying that I can choose to do evil according to my own discretion, I don't believe it's Christ.

Of course our choices will have consequences, but that doesn't mean that we always see the consequences of our choices before we make them. Otherwise there can be no true repentance. For example, one cannot truly repent if they are not truly sorry. And if they are truly sorry, then they would not have done it in the first place had they known the suffering that they would be handing to others before hand. That is if they care. After all, all moral/immoral choices are about how our choices will effect our fellow man. And that is precisely why there is no free will (self determination) in the moral purview. Philippians 2:13. Love is what directs our will to do what is good and restricts us from doing evil. The point is that God is Love and we do become abominations apart from His Spirit since there is only carnal impetus otherwise. One cannot even be sorry without Love, and it is actually love that compels our Godly sorrow and not our volition. Sorrow is not voluntary and neither is repentance. We are not supposed to think that we decided to do good or be good or even presume we can. We are supposed to thank God for His Word which guides our reasoning and does not give value to any vanity which is of the flesh. Therefore we cannot have a free will morally speaking, unless the term is meant to denote a will free from the slavery of sin.

I agree with you here. But with as much humility as God has afforded me, I would point out that this is why I have carefully considered that there is a difference between being seen by God as thinking and believing that God's Spirit is what makes a man good, wherein I am truly thankful for his wisdom, and being seen by God as believing and thinking that it is through my volition that I volunteer to be good, lest God punish me.

Thank you for your discourse, and I hope we can come to an understanding, speaking and teaching the same things in Christs' Name, Jesus.

Even if we don't come to an understanding, as long as we hold to the Lord's teaching, itas all good. What do we accomplish by coming to an understanding with each other . People can be united in eroir also. I have seen plenty of that. Anyway it's more important to do as Christ says .
As far as thoughts are concerned , although some come uninvited it's up to me if I wish to ponder on a thought or let it go. That's a choice I have to make . Not all thoughts are wholesome.
To me Lord's teachings are exceedingly important . His greatest emphasis was on love. Im trying to practise that . Struggling, but trying. I don't think I'll further to participate in this subject , because to an extent it's good to discuss/ debate but not overdo it. I'd rather refocus on the Lord's words rather than my opinions !
John 8: 31: If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.