WHY DID GOD GIVE THE TEN COMMANDMENTS?

[Mitspa]

Rom 3:19

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


Gal 3:10

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12

And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.



Gal 3:22

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23

But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

I find it really hard to understand how satan has so blinded much of the "church" It seems so few understand what is so clear?

 

[jasoncran]

while that is true. but in the days of that torah when it was freshly given there was a lot of sin and things that the isrealites needed to be reminded of what was sin(they knew by oral traditions and also the judgment of sodom and gommorah) and well even today we need to look at why it was the first time too.

idolatry,pedatasery and fornication have been around since the time of adam's fall.

 

[smaller]

Rom 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Gal 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12

And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Gal 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Gal 3:23
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

I find it really hard to understand how satan has so blinded much of the "church" It seems so few understand what is so clear?

What is so clear?

The Law is still in play. The Law still arouses and empowers sin within all that encounter it, even in believers.

Paul upheld the Law and admonished believers to firmly adhere to the spiritual intentions of all the commands in Romans 13:8-10.

Paul eliminated exactly zero of Gods Words of Law and in fact made every jot and tittle entirely applicable to every believer in Romans 13:8-10.

The law has always been a dividing line between the lawless and the legal.

We do not murder, steal or commit adultery as believers and when we do not we are following the LAW.

s

 

[Mitspa]

What is so clear?

The Law is still in play. The Law still arouses and empowers sin within all that encounter it, even in believers.

Paul upheld the Law and admonished believers to firmly adhere to the spiritual intentions of all the commands in Romans 13:8-10.

Paul eliminated exactly zero of Gods Words of Law and in fact made every jot and tittle entirely applicable to every believer in Romans 13:8-10.

The law has always been a dividing line between the lawless and the legal.

We do not murder, steal or commit adultery as believers and when we do not we are following the LAW.

s

Rom 13:9

For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10

Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Sorry you are wrong, the law of moses has died with Christ for those who believe, now we are under the "Royal Law"
For the law is "spiritual" it can only be kept by the "spirit" The Spirit gives us the Love of God, we walk in that love.


Rom 10:4

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Gal 6:2

Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

"This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you"

Again the purpose of the Law was to bring us to Christ and to His love By the "spirit"

 

[smaller]

Rom 13:9
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10

Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Sorry you are wrong, the law of moses has died with Christ for those who believe, now we are under the "Royal Law"

Read the blue above. It says what it says.

For the law is "spiritual" it can only be kept by the "spirit" The Spirit gives us the Love of God, we walk in that love.

Again, read the blue above.

If any reader can not see that IS the Law of Moses, they are simply not reading the Law of Moses accurately and see it apart from how Paul shows it to be.

It's a very common mistake.

Rom 10:4

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Gal 6:2

Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

"This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you"

Again the purpose of the Law was to bring us to Christ and to His love By the "spirit"

I will maintain that there is no difference between the Law of Moses and Paul's depiction of same. That is 'how' it is to be read, understood and followed. The Law of Moses is factually a matter of spiritual intent.

That same Law can be read with carnal eyes and different spins. That does not make such sights accurate and in line with Paul's depictions of same:

Paul was obviously a New Testament example of 'what' we as New Testament believers should adhere to. Here, by Paul's own mouth is how he viewed and what he believed about the Old Testament:


Acts 24:14
But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Elimination is not an option.

Paul lays out far deeper and more interesting ground work in the N.T. with the Law. Every New Testament precept is in fact written in the Law and the Prophets. It was always there.

For example, within the the Law itself is this New Testament Principle:

Romans 3:21
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets

Do you see that? Righteousness without the Law is written IN THE LAW and the PROPHETS.

Paul and the Apostles received much deeper insights into the Law and the Prophets via 'revelation' or revealing what was already there, in same, but hidden prior to Israel. Again and for example, Peter shows that GRACE was witnessed by the Prophets:

1 Peter 1:10
Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

The Law itself was provided directly by the Spirit of Christ who was 'in them' to provide same:

1 Peter 1:11
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

There is not a single word in the New Testament that is against the Old Testament.

Gods Words are not against each others in any respect.

It is only unfortunate that many N.T. believers don't have a deeper understanding of these matters.

Justification by faith for example is an Old Testament fact.

Habakkuk 2:4
Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

The fact of having sin and being justified by faith was there to see for quite along time.

The Apostles did not pull these New Testament matters out of thin air and their imaginations.

New Testament scriptures cite literally hundreds of foundational texts right out of the Old Testament.

s

 

[abide]

Rom 3:19

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


Gal 3:10

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12

And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.



Gal 3:22

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23

But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

I find it really hard to understand how satan has so blinded much of the "church" It seems so few understand what is so clear?

The answer to this question has nothing to do with my salvation...all it is going to do encourage arguments. Paul spoke about this kind of thing. Why did God do this yada yada. This forum is becoming a sounding board for speculation, and things that don't matter. What benefit if any would a Christian derive from know this question. I am sure there will be folks who will disagree with y our points. So I have decided not to answer it.. I have views concerning this question, but I believe we are here to learn, fellowship and really grow in the Lord...the answer to the question will not do any for those three areas.

 

[Mitspa]

Read the blue above. It says what it says.



Again, read the blue above.

If any reader can not see that IS the Law of Moses, they are simply not reading the Law of Moses accurately and see it apart from how Paul shows it to be.

It's a very common mistake.


I will maintain that there is no difference between the Law of Moses and Paul's depiction of same. That is 'how' it is to be read, understood and followed. The Law of Moses is factually a matter of spiritual intent.

That same Law can be read with carnal eyes and different spins. That does not make such sights accurate and in line with Paul's depictions of same:

Paul was obviously a New Testament example of 'what' we as New Testament believers should adhere to. Here, by Paul's own mouth is how he viewed and what he believed about the Old Testament:




Acts 24:14
But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Elimination is not an option.

Paul lays out far deeper and more interesting ground work in the N.T. with the Law. Every New Testament precept is in fact written in the Law and the Prophets. It was always there.

For example, within the the Law itself is this New Testament Principle:

Romans 3:21
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets

Do you see that? Righteousness without the Law is written IN THE LAW and the PROPHETS.

Paul and the Apostles received much deeper insights into the Law and the Prophets via 'revelation' or revealing what was already there, in same, but hidden prior to Israel. Again and for example, Peter shows that GRACE was witnessed by the Prophets:

1 Peter 1:10
Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

The Law itself was provided directly by the Spirit of Christ who was 'in them' to provide same:

1 Peter 1:11
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

There is not a single word in the New Testament that is against the Old Testament.

Gods Words are not against each others in any respect.

It is only unfortunate that many N.T. believers don't have a deeper understanding of these matters.

Justification by faith for example is an Old Testament fact.

Habakkuk 2:4
Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

The fact of having sin and being justified by faith was there to see for quite along time.

The Apostles did not pull these New Testament matters out of thin air and their imaginations.

New Testament scriptures cite literally hundreds of foundational texts right out of the Old Testament.


s

I am not sure of your point? The law is good! Paul and I agree! But the natural man can not keep its requirements! Thus one must die to the law and Come Alive to Christ by the Spirit! to fulfill the righteous requirements of the law.

Rom 8:2



For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3



For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4



That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Again I am not sure of your point?

 

[smaller]

I am not sure of your point? The law is good! Paul and I agree! But the natural man can not keep its requirments! Thus one must die to the law and Come Alive to Christ by the Spirit! to fulfill what the righteous requirements of the law.

I admit that the law is a deeply interesting matter and within same contains even more deeply interesting matters.

Undoubtedly the law is against the lawless and lawlessness which we are to die to.

But beneath this particular matter some believers might sooner or later delve into understanding the matters of lawlessness in order to divide from same if they are led to be so inclined.

The Law is an ally to those who seek this direction.

Eliminators are immediately disqualified from further understandings.

Rom 8:2

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Again I am not sure of your point?

The statements from Paul on matters of his own admitted lawlessness is what peaked my interest in this subject matter many years ago. It has been a wonderful journey of discovery and disclosure ever since.

In short, I love the Law of God deeply and do so from New Testament perspectives.

Paul openly admitted his factual conditions before us all and did not hide this fact post belief.

Few can stand in his truthful shoes themselves and instead they quickly scurry away without a closer look and applicability of this same fact to themselves.

1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Paul never covered up the fact of being a sinner post salvation. In fact he moves himself to the very bottom of the pile of sinners by admitting, post salvation, that he was chief of same.

Paul is truthfully refreshing in this disclosure in stating post salvation of his factual condition of being the chief of sinners.

He did not have some fanciful imagination about himself cloaked in Grace with his sin and evil excused and covered.

Romans 6:1
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Those who claim they do not and can not fulfill the Law in themselves only show they know neither the Law nor the Spirit of Christ that provided same.

If Christ is in any, they will not deny His Words, inclusive of every jot and tittle of the Old Testament.

Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Those who 'do this' do in fact fulfill every jot and tittle of the requirements of the Law and show that it is The Spirit of Christ in them doing same.

Romans 8:4
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

I do not see elimination of LAW in that equation. Only a carnal reading of that same law.

s

 

[Mitspa]

I admit that the law is a deeply interesting matter and within same contains even more deeply interesting matters.

Undoubtedly the law is against the lawless and lawlessness which we are to die to.

But beneath this particular matter some believers might sooner or later delve into understanding the matters of lawlessness in order to divide from same if they are led to be so inclined.

The Law is an ally to those who seek this direction.

Eliminators are immediately disqualified from further understandings.



The statements from Paul on matters of his own admitted lawlessness is what peaked my interest in this subject matter many years ago. It has been a wonderful journey of discovery and disclosure ever since.

In short, I love the Law of God deeply and do so from New Testament perspectives.

Paul openly admitted his factual conditions before us all and did not hide this fact post belief.

Few can stand in his truthful shoes themselves and instead they quickly scurry away without a closer look and applicability of this same fact to themselves.

1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Paul never covered up the fact of being a sinner post salvation. In fact he moves himself to the very bottom of the pile of sinners by admitting, post salvation, that he was chief of same.

Paul is truthfully refreshing in this disclosure in stating post salvation of his factual condition of being the chief of sinners.

He did not have some fanciful imagination about himself cloaked in Grace with his sin and evil excused and covered.

Romans 6:1
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Those who claim they do not and can not fulfill the Law in themselves only show they know neither the Law nor the Spirit of Christ that provided same.

If Christ is in any, they will not deny His Words, inclusive of every jot and tittle of the Old Testament.

Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Those who 'do this' do in fact fulfill every jot and tittle of the requirements of the Law and show that it is The Spirit of Christ in them doing same.

Romans 8:4
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

I do not see elimination of LAW in that equation. Only a carnal reading of that same law.

s

Again you seem to be agree with my points in scripture yet reject the truth of those same scriptures?

Christ Jesus ALONE has fulfilled the Law. We who walk by His Spirit will also fulfill what the Law required.

Mat 5:17

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.


Luk 24:27

And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Joh 1:16

And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Joh 1:17


For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Joh 5:39

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

 

[smaller]

Again you seem to be agree with my points in scripture yet reject the truth of those same scriptures?

Reject what scriptures? Neither Law or Grace can or ever will be for and behalf of sin.

Christ Jesus ALONE has fulfilled the Law. We who walk by His Spirit will also fulfill what the Law required.

It is not then Christ alone, but Christ in us, with us. There is a bit of departure in the Christ alone axiom then isn't there? You say Christ alone yet include the 'we.'

Mat 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Luk 24:27
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Joh 1:16
And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Joh 1:17
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Joh 5:39

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Not really sure how any of that pertains to the observations prior.

The first questions that should be observed to any thinking believer is how is it that Paul puts forth fulfilling the Law in ourselves by the Spirit of Christ in us, yet simultaneously himself admitting being the chief of sinners.

Therein lies the heart of this matter and the essence of understanding the surface dichotomies of all scripture.

The very first discovery of Paul in relationship with the law on a personal scale was an internal and adverse reaction within himself when met with the law:

Romans 7:
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

As Paul steps us through these matters in Romans 7 he identifies that the sin indwelling him IS NOT HIM. Yet it still dwelt in him.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

This fact continued with Paul all the days of his life. The presence of sin indwelling us maintains a constant adverse relationship with The Law. And this does not change post salvation.

Paul ultimately comes to this conclusion for himself. And it is an important conclusion to make 'personally.'

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

God does not bless the evil, the sin or the workings of evil within any of us.

What does this lead you to conclude? Was Paul evil?

Jesus does provide the ultimate insight in this matter of the human heart and condition. Paul understood and accepted this principle of Jesus in all his understandings.

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Believers who accept and believe what Jesus says happens, understands that the evil present with us is a cause of the adversary, and there is the evil that we are to divide from, even while we ourselves remain under ASSAULT within from that adversary.

Those who say this does not happen to them WITHIN are engaged in providing excuses and coverups for the enemy of our souls.

Yet nary a believer cares to connect the dots of their own sin with the devil and instead are led to the understanding that it is only them involved.

Fact is, it's not.

In the equation that Paul provides the evil present with him was and remained utterly condemned. But Paul was not that evil present. The ADVERSARY was.

One of the two in that equation was saved. The other, always condemned.

Part of the Hope of the Gospel is for the final eradication of our adversary.

In Romans 9 Paul lays out this case for himself rather succinctly and adroitly of him as a child of God and the evil present which is of the adversary. It is a basic extension of Romans 7 and it is personally applied to Paul:

Romans 9:
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

It is to the vessel of dishonor that we all have in our own lump of flesh that we are called to divide from. If any believer does not think they have such a vessel, an adversary internal to divide from, again Paul makes the case that this is so:

2 Tim. 2:
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

There is the dividing line.

For those who do not believe they have a vessel of dishonor to divide and to purge from, they are at this time simply not aware of their factual state and think themselves only the good vessel without the other, the workings of the adversary within them.

It is a somewhat hard place to go and most won't and can't, nor do I expect that to happen or be understood.

Those who are called into honesty within themselves however will be made know the truth of it from the Spirit of Christ.

s

 

[Mitspa]

Reject what scriptures? Neither Law or Grace can or ever will be for and behalf of sin.
It is not then Christ alone, but Christ in us, with us. There is a bit of departure in the Christ alone axiom then isn't there? You say Christ alone yet include the 'we.'


Not really sure how any of that pertains to the observations prior.

The first questions that should be observed to any thinking believer is how is it that Paul puts forth fulfilling the Law in ourselves by the Spirit of Christ in us, yet simultaneously himself admitting being the chief of sinners.

Therein lies the heart of this matter and the essence of understanding the surface dichotomies of all scripture.

The very first discovery of Paul in relationship with the law on a personal scale was an internal and adverse reaction within himself when met with the law:

Romans 7:
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

As Paul steps us through these matters in Romans 7 he identifies that the sin indwelling him IS NOT HIM. Yet it still dwelt in him.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

This fact continued with Paul all the days of his life. The presence of sin indwelling us maintains a constant adverse relationship with The Law. And this does not change post salvation.

Paul ultimately comes to this conclusion for himself. And it is an important conclusion to make 'personally.'

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

God does not bless the evil, the sin or the workings of evil within any of us.

What does this lead you to conclude? Was Paul evil?

Jesus does provide the ultimate insight in this matter of the human heart and condition. Paul understood and accepted this principle of Jesus in all his understandings.

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Believers who accept and believe what Jesus says happens, understands that the evil present with us is a cause of the adversary, and there is the evil that we are to divide from, even while we ourselves remain under ASSAULT within from that adversary.

Those who say this does not happen to them WITHIN are engaged in providing excuses and coverups for the enemy of our souls.

Yet nary a believer cares to connect the dots of their own sin with the devil and instead are led to the understanding that it is only them involved.

Fact is, it's not.

In the equation that Paul provides the evil present with him was and remained utterly condemned. But Paul was not that evil present. The ADVERSARY was.

s

Again you pretend to make a point yet I see no point? The old man is the "man of flesh" which Paul was referring too!

Php 3:3

For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Php 3:4

Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Php 3:5



Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Php 3:6



Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Php 3:7



But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Php 3:8



Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Php 3:9



And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

So again one must die to the Law! which causes sin in the "flesh" to revive and bring death to the believer.

Rom 7:4



Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 7:5



For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

You seem to come to no point? my point is clear! we have died to the law by the body Christ.

The strength of sin is the law, die to the law and the "Spirit" will give life to the "believer"

 

[smaller]

Again you pretend to make a point yet I see no point? The old man is the "man of flesh" which Paul was referring too!

Quite missed point.

Many have a gnostic view as you touch on above, that the flesh is evil.

It's not.

Evil present with all of us continues and maintains an adverse relationship with both law and grace.

That's the long and the short of it.

Any believer is an expert at heaping up only and all the good things of the scriptures to themselves.

Some however will be led to the conclusion that EVERY WORD of God applies to each of us, some to good and some adverse.

enjoy the one sided glasses.

s

 

[Mitspa]

Quite missed point.

Many have a gnostic view as you touch on above, that the flesh is evil.

It's not.

Evil present with all of us continues and maintains an adverse relationship with both law and grace.

That's the long and the short of it.

Any believer is an expert at heaping up only and all the good things of the scriptures to themselves.

Some however will be led to the conclusion that EVERY WORD of God applies to each of us, some to good and some adverse.

enjoy the one sided glasses.

s

So you fail at making a biblical point and decide to insult?
The "flesh" is evil and sinful, I have never denied that in any post! We are in a "body of sin" but we have "Christ in us" and we "who believe" are in Him. The spirit overcomes the flesh, but one must first die to the law!
Rom 6:11

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13

Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh! simple

 

[smaller]

So you fail at making a biblical point and decide to insult?

My understandings contain exactly zero insults or threats to any believers.

The "flesh" is evil

That is why I said earlier you have a gnostic heresy basis of understanding.

That exact understanding, that the flesh is evil, is NOT TRUE and was debunked hundreds of years ago as a basic heresy by early church fathers.

but this and other various heresies still pop up all over the place.

God Himself occupied FLESH and His flesh was most assuredly not 'evil,' as you say and His flesh was HUMAN flesh just as yours or mine.

s

 

[Mitspa]

My understandings contain exactly zero insults or threats to any believers.

That is why I said earlier you have a gnostic heresy basis of understanding.

That exact understanding, that the flesh is evil, is NOT TRUE and was debunked hundreds of years ago as a basic heresy by early church fathers.

but this and other various heresies still pop up all over the place.

God Himself occupied FLESH and His flesh was most assuredly not 'evil,' as you say and His flesh was HUMAN flesh just as yours or mine.

s

Rom 7:13



Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14



For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15



For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16



If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17



Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18



For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19



For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20



Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.



Boy! sounds like the scripture is clear! I have more but I think all honest people know that what the Holy Spirit is saying here, through the Apostle Paul, is true.

 

[smaller]

Boy! sounds like the scripture is clear! I have more but I think all honest people know that what the Holy Spirit is saying here, through the Apostle Paul, is true.

There are exactly ZERO statements in the scriptures that say the flesh is evil.

That is a gnostic heresy, period.

Currently it is an in vogue heresy in many sects, particularly in charismatic sects and some of the newly minted alt. reformed's.

s

 

[Mitspa]

There are exactly ZERO statements in the scriptures that say the flesh is evil.

That is a gnostic heresy, period.

Currently it is an in vogue heresy in many sects, particularly in charismatic sects and some of the newly minted alt. reformed's.

s

Well you have your opinion and I have the scriptures

1Jn 1:8



If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9



If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1Jn 1:10



If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.




Where do you think this sin comes from? The scriptures are clear, this sin is in the "flesh" of all men.

 

[Mitspa]

Gal 3:22

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. :biglol

 

[smaller]

Well you have your opinion and I have the scriptures

1Jn 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9

Ask others here if 'evil flesh' is gnostic heresy.

Those who know their theological salt will tell you the same.

There is no such scripture, so no, you have nothing of that presentation in text. It is an old heresy that takes root in those who carry same. Heresies can be almost impossible to shake from those who hold such things.

s

 

[Mitspa]

Ask others here if 'evil flesh' is gnostic heresy.

Those who know their theological salt will tell you the same.

There is no such scripture, so no, you have nothing of that presentation in text. It is an old heresy that takes root in those who carry same. Heresies can be almost impossible to shake from those who hold such things.

s

I dont care what anyone else believes! the scriptures are clear! And I know the history of "gnostic" beliefs and we both know they are much more in line with your beliefs than mine.

Here is Gods Word.
Rom 7:14

For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15

For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16

If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17

Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.


Rom 7:20

Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21

I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23

But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

I only deal with scripture, not your opinion