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Why do you believe?

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#1
Hello everyone, I am a recent christian turned agnostic. (Please don't try to change my view points) but I would like to know why you believe what you believe? I personally let go of Christianity for many reasons, 1. because I am not intrested in following a god that has no business in helping me or trying to make me better, I have prayed,prayed, and prayed some more, but nothing not one speck of help from him. 2. I was happy when I was an unbeliever, and when I because a christian I was sad, depressed, anxiety ridden and ocd ridden all because if christianity, before this I was fine, but these past few months have been the worst of my life and after a year of faith, I am done. I have given up of the god of Christianity. 3. Too many rules, I have been troubled by soany rules in my life that I simply could not live without worrying about of I was sinning and I got sick of it ang gave it up. I still believe there could be a god, but that god is not knowable and not able to understand. I also do not believe in sin or salvation.
 
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#2
As a Christian, I believe it's my place and my duty to serve God first no matter what that entails. I don't believe it's my place to expect God to serve me.
 
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#3
Why I believe started in my younger years from prayers and God comforting me in some depressing times, as well as some prayer requests being answered. From those times there's no doubt in my mind that God exists. I still feel I have God in my life and that adds to my faith, but it's grown too due to trying to study the bible, and from self examination of how I am when I give in to certain sins, or how I am when I try and avoid those sins, verses how I am when I've asked for God's forgiveness and His help.

This might seem off the mark to you, but I think I've found a correlation between allowing one sin in my life and other temptations a bad attitude and a short temper to follow in the same package. I've also found with some of the sins I've felt an impulse towards that trigger this package deal also feel like quicksand that for the most part I can't get out of, (or at least not for any time longer then a week or two) sometimes with the more I struggle the harder the struggle. So once I do one it sticks for a while like an addiction or an old habit. So I believe because of what I've seen from God's help in who I am.

What I believe starts with that God is real, and that He has a lot of love in Him. This I've found through prayers and comfort through them. From there I believe God established the written texts and the history that surrounds the bible. I've come to this conclusion from reading a bible translation that was easier to read and many times feel like I'm being read to, almost like a parent is trying to pass on some knowledge or inspiration to their child. This strengthens my love for God and my faith in His love.

After that much of what I believe stems from studying the bible, and from insight from other people. Not sure where to go from there because there's a lot of ground to cover. My like experiences help reaffirm or challenge some of those beliefs over time.

One belief is that God loves us all of us, and has a calling for us all to be good to eachother, encouraging, and helpful. Even if it's not returned, expecially if it's not returned. The calling the way I see it is to make the world a better place and can be summed up in two teachings:
1) Treat others the way you want to be treated.
And
2) Don't return evil for evil but conquor evil by doing good.
It is from trying to apply these two teaching that I think the laws are not just good for you or me, but for those around us too to become better because of us. (Not nessassarily that they will do the same, even though that happens too, but that it will help them be better. It's just what I've seen.)

A second belief is that we need God, and that He is good for us. This stems from my above experiences of God making me a better person as best as I can tell through my own self examination, as well as from trying to study understand and apply some of the teachings in the bible that I can wrap my understanding around. A conclusion from this belief in needing God, is also needing Jesus.

A third belief is in heaven. Salvation. And many more hopes to come.
___________________

All of that said for my beliefs, I'm sorry for your discuragement and anxiety while believing in Christianity. I hope you find God some day because I really think it's worth it. But I understand the discuragement from so many philosophies and perspectives in Christian culture and from Christians themselves. I really hope you give God a chance again someday, but even if you do, I'm sorry to inform you that being Christian doesn't mean all our problems are solved, or that by praying we can treat God as if we are His master.

Either way, welcome to Christianforums.net. :)
 
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#5
Yes but why do you believe that?
Because that's what scripture tells me, and I choose to believe it. Belief is a choice, and it's the choice I made. After I made that choice God made it abundantly clear to me that I made the right choice and because He loves me He would take care of me. But I had to make the choice and have faith in Him first. That doesn't happen overnight.
 

JohnDB

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#6
I believe because I know Him.
I know Him like I know my son or my wife.
I have the Bible which is a book containing 66 books and letters, written by 40+ authors over a span of 1500 years and it agrees perfectly.

There is also tons of contextual corroboration with other writings so we know that the Bible we have today is really accurate.

Then there is archeological evidence that shows exactly what the Bible claims.

Then there are the mountains of miracles and prophesy. Most are naturally occurring events with logically understood reactions....but with a timing that was predicted 1000- 600+ years in advance. No one but a God can do that.

Then the miracles in my own life... again reasonable reactions to natural events...but timing outside the norm.

So....
We have a whole Universe that screams and shouts out the Glory and wonderful nature of God and you claim not to hear it and demand that God prove himself to you?
Yeah.... like that's going to happen.

First off God doesn't need you.

You, on the other hand, are in desperate need for God.

Holy, the state or condition of being holy, separate, pure, without blemish or error is not something science can recognize or measure. But the Universe as a whole is holy. God's chosen people are holy of the Holy.
God himself is the Holy of the holiest of the Holy....a level of purity and goodness far surpassing anything you can understand. And where you would like to think that holy is static...it isn't. It has a positive reaction to error.
Right now the Universe as a whole would like to remove mankind from it because of our error filled nature. The only thing holding it back is God. (Common grace for lack of a better description...but it's anything but common)

And one day you will meet your Maker. And unless you have some kind of protection against the fury of God's holiness....I wouldn't give you a full microsecond of time left. Those who have had faith in Jesus will....they will live forever.
And this generous gift of eternal life is not the only reason.(even if it is a good one) but since the principles and actions of truth, love, mercy, and loving kindness can only be found in a TRUE Christian life...which brings me more freedom and joy than you obviously understand i ain't gonna leave it.
I've been you...and it sucks. Now I'm me...and it rocks.
 
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#7
Hi. Before I came to --know-- Christ, I interpreted Christianity as a set of rules. I still fall into that sometimes, but Christ's grace brings me out of it.

Christianity is (ideally) a relationship. You and Jesus. Because he became human on our behalf, He knows all about human life and suffering. He's been there (and then some).

Sometimes, you don't feel so great, whether you're an unbeliever or a Christian. As a Christian, I can turn to The Lord, even when its extra rough. Also, there is such a thing as remorse over sins (godly sorrow worketh repentance). There's also attacks of the world+the evil one to make a believer get down and out. Happens frequently.

I think...not to sound condescending, but...I think you're still quite young. The World looks friendly and inviting when you're young, but...just wait...rough times always hit. Far rougher than what you've experienced thus so far. Jesus' followers are "in the world, but not of it." I think once you get out into the world a bit, you'll see why that's important. In the meantime...all I can tell you is that Jesus genuinely loves, more than any human can or ever will. The world doesn't care about you, nor do most of the people in it care all that much for or about you, when it comes down to it. He wants a relationship with you, and not just so you can follow His rules, but so you can know Him, love Him, cherish Him...now and for eternity.
 

for_his_glory

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#8
This is my testimony when I was contemplating suicide at one time because like you Logan I did not feel God was hearing me as I was struggling with so much in my life at that time. What I discovered later was that I never gave God a chance to really speak to my heart as I was to busy being angry with Him and miserable with myself and was never quiet long enough for Him to speak. God only has one commandment (rule) and that is to love. When we can love our self we can begin to love others and actually forgive those who have come against us. It's a process to know and understand the mind of Christ as we question so many things, but begin with faith, even if it's a little until we grow in maturity to know the mind of Christ. I pray this will help you even in a small way as God truly loves you even though you do not feel it right now.

MY TESTIMONY
May 18th 1997

I am lost, confused and scared. Will I ever fit in anywhere in this life? I'm hurting, but who cares. I'm lonely and all alone within myself. I've been so used and abused. Where and when will it be my turn! Where are the open arms to hold me and hug me, to tell me I do matter in this life! Where is the voice to calm my tears of pain? I give and give, but nothing gives back in return. I'm mad and angry for what has been taken away from me! How do I go on? I search for God to answer my needs, but never get an answer.

I am a voice that cries out in the wilderness. Will no one listen! Will no one care! I feel like I am invisible at times and when I pray I feel my prayers are falling on deaf ears. I know God loves me. He has rescued me from death and destruction. He has rescued me from wanting to commit suicide. I have never opened my feelings with anyone except God. I have purged and purged until I cannot cry anymore. God has forgiven and forgot my past, how do I! I've been told I am strong and can handle my situations, guess what, I am not strong and I can't handle it anymore! Please God help me!

I am now ready to open up. I can't deal with the pain anymore. I want to let loose and completely die to myself and live for God. I'm asking for total deliverance of all the holds Satan has on me. I'm tired of fighting this on my own. I'm tired of Satan laughing at me and making me feel like nothing and always coming against me. Jesus, save me from my torment! You have called me into service and I am not ready. Lord God please perform a complete deliverance in me. Make my feet straight for what you are calling me to do. Show me how to do your will. Lord you know my heart and you know what I feel I need to do. Open that door and prepare me away.

This is the answer God gave me. When you cry out to him, he will hear you and speak to your heart. You might not like the answer he gives you, but if you really listen it is always the right answer.

11 Kings 5:10, 11
But Naaman was wroth and went away and said, Behold, I thought he would surely come out to me and stand and call on the name of the Lord his God and strike his hand over the place and recover the leper.

God was showing me in the above scripture the beginning of relying solely on him and not what man could do for me. I was going from church to church trying to fit in with the people. I was trying to find answers and help for myself through the recognition of man. All that got me was more disappointment and frustration. When I learned to give myself totally over to the Lord and rely on him alone and his word is when my life completely changed for the better. Now I serve God with a glad heart and praise him for all his wonderful blessings.
 
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#9
Hello everyone, I am a recent christian turned agnostic. (Please don't try to change my view points) but I would like to know why you believe what you believe? I personally let go of Christianity for many reasons, 1. because I am not intrested in following a god that has no business in helping me or trying to make me better, I have prayed,prayed, and prayed some more, but nothing not one speck of help from him. 2. I was happy when I was an unbeliever, and when I because a christian I was sad, depressed, anxiety ridden and ocd ridden all because if christianity, before this I was fine, but these past few months have been the worst of my life and after a year of faith, I am done. I have given up of the god of Christianity. 3. Too many rules, I have been troubled by soany rules in my life that I simply could not live without worrying about of I was sinning and I got sick of it ang gave it up. I still believe there could be a god, but that god is not knowable and not able to understand. I also do not believe in sin or salvation.
Everyone knows there is a God, even those who say there is no God. For in the flash of a life threatening incident, man will instinctively call out to God. The god that you were introduced to is a remake of God our creator, created in the image of man by man. All the teaching of God by man will cause you depression and guilt and an attitude that there is nothing you try to do that will ever please Him. It gives you the feeling of, "whats the use". You can not live by religious laws...It is not possible!

Those who live under laws believe they are righteous before God. It is called the pride of men. But they are deceived. To know God personally will bring peace against all of the things that caused you depression by the teachings of religious men.

If you want to know God, read the New Covenant starting with the book of John first, then Matthew , Mark Luke. Do this on your own without anyone instructing you. Then the Book of Acts and the epistles. You will see what these men went through to preach the Gospel of God's grace and against making laws that no one can keep. That is the only way to find the Truth. And why do I believe it? Because God let me see myself for what man's nature really is (look around the world and look at how men treat each other and even animals) That is when I could see my need for God's grace. For that is when He revealed Himself to me.
 
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#10
I believe because God had healed me when my doctor told my parents I wouldn't live past a year. I had a leaky velve in my heart and I had a surgery but the doctors weren't sure how long I would live and told my parents I might not make it. My mom and dad had a lot of prayers and hopes and here I am at 32 :)
 

for_his_glory

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#11
Logan, be not so quick to write God off in your life as many are a want it now, not later type of people and I think this is how so many are with God as I once was. If things are not changing in our life is it truly Gods fault or is our own fault. Some say it's Gods fault or go as far as saying there is no God because nothing is changing for the better for me. Many of us can witness and testify of what God has done in our lives, but we have also learned patience, tolerance and to endure all the trials and tribulations that come against us for the sake of our faith in Christ. Satan loves nothing more than to try and steal our faith as Job is probably the greatest example of this.

Jesus never promised that our lives would be a bed of roses after surrendering all to Him and asking Him to be our Lord and Savior. What He did promise is that He would never leave us nor forsake us as He will always walk by our side and even carry us at times while facing the trials and tribulations. It's during the hard times that makes our faith stronger as we trust God in all things and know at the end of this life we have eternal life with the Father where there is no more pain, sickness and persecutions. This is why Jesus said in Matthew 24:13 that those who endure until the end shall be saved.

God will always make a way where there seems to be no way if we would only trust in His perfect timing and give Him a chance to answer our prayers. When we pray we also need to forgive those who have sinned against us for if we do not then God will not forgive our sin and anything we ask of Him will fall on deaf ears, Mark 11:22-26. Faith, trust, patience and endurance is what brings us to a closer relationship with God through His Son Christ Jesus who is our mediator before the Father as we send up our prayers to Him.
 
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#12
Hello everyone, I am a recent christian turned agnostic. (Please don't try to change my view points) but I would like to know why you believe what you believe? I personally let go of Christianity for many reasons, 1. because I am not intrested in following a god that has no business in helping me or trying to make me better, I have prayed,prayed, and prayed some more, but nothing not one speck of help from him. 2. I was happy when I was an unbeliever, and when I because a christian I was sad, depressed, anxiety ridden and ocd ridden all because if christianity, before this I was fine, but these past few months have been the worst of my life and after a year of faith, I am done. I have given up of the god of Christianity. 3. Too many rules, I have been troubled by soany rules in my life that I simply could not live without worrying about of I was sinning and I got sick of it ang gave it up. I still believe there could be a god, but that god is not knowable and not able to understand. I also do not believe in sin or salvation.
You seem to think Christianity is the acceptance of a set of propositions. It does entail believing certain things, but that is not the heart of it. God draws and reconciles people to himself. That is the core of Christianity. Again, part of his work is demonstrated in what we believe, but a person does not believe unless God opens a person's heart to receive his truth.

Your loss of self-imposed Christian beliefs is no great loss. In fact, it strips a hindrance from you being able to have God open your eyes to his truth so that you may truly believe for the first time.

Let me state clearly so you are not mistaken: what you wrote of regarding your "Christianity" was not Christianity. Please do not think you have rejected the real deal of being reconciled to God; as far as I can tell from your OP, you have yet to be a Christian.
 
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#13
Hi Logan,
You're here because you're still searching. I knew a pastor once who told me that if you're searching for God, you've already found Him.

I believe because many years ago God told me something that I needed to know. Something especially for me - it may not work for everyone. But it worked for me, so I decided that God must be real.

Religion is a DOING. You follow a set of rules. You try to do everything just right, the way that God would want you to.
This is not Christianity.

Christianity is a BEING. It's trusting yourself to the God that made you. It's having a friendship with His Son, Jesus.
It's knowing that no matter what you do wrong, Jesus will always protect you and keep you in His loving arms.

We must remember, however, that God is not Santa Claus. When we pray we should be praying to communicate with Him. You were asking Him to make you better.and to help you. This is not really how it works. God helps to make us better, but it's also something we have to get to. It doesn't happen overnight - it takes a long time. I'm afraid you were expecting immediate changes. This could happen too, but not in every case.

God can be knowable. Jesus is God. He is knowable. He became a human just like you and me. His story is in the New Testament Gospels. He came here to show us God's love. That's all we need to know - that God loves us and that we could love Him back.

Of course, if you're serious about knowing this God, you must first accept that you do sin and that salvation is available. If Jesus was not crazy, then He was God. Jesus spoke of eternal life. If life is eternal, it's good to know that we'll go to be with God after this life is ended for us. It's a simple decision that does need to be made.

If you ever do return to God, and I think you might, take it slow. Treat Him as you would a friend. The relationship will grow slowly and naturally. Don't expect from yourself any more than God does!

Wondering
 
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#15
You say you are a Christian turned agnostic, but you registered as a Christian May 17th.
So maybe you haven't quite let go, eh?

I believe because to me, God makes more sense than.... well.... no god. I just believe.

---

I came across a website once, years and years ago, that said "Say no to religion. Say yes to Jesus."
I think that sums up the response to your post: Focus on Salvation. The rest will follow by itself.


Forget about sin / Satan, the more you focus on Jesus, the more angry he'll get, but the less he can do.
As for rules:

(Matthew 22: 36-40, NIV)
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

(1 Corinthians 13:1-3, NIV)
1 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

(Micah 6:8, NKJV)
He has shown you, O man, what is good;
And what does the Lord require of you
But to do justly,
To love mercy,
And to walk humbly with your God?
 
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#16
Hello everyone, I am a recent christian turned agnostic. (Please don't try to change my view points) but I would like to know why you believe what you believe? I personally let go of Christianity for many reasons, 1. because I am not intrested in following a god that has no business in helping me or trying to make me better, I have prayed,prayed, and prayed some more, but nothing not one speck of help from him. 2. I was happy when I was an unbeliever, and when I because a christian I was sad, depressed, anxiety ridden and ocd ridden all because if christianity, before this I was fine, but these past few months have been the worst of my life and after a year of faith, I am done. I have given up of the god of Christianity. 3. Too many rules, I have been troubled by soany rules in my life that I simply could not live without worrying about of I was sinning and I got sick of it ang gave it up. I still believe there could be a god, but that god is not knowable and not able to understand. I also do not believe in sin or salvation.
1st John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

Could the above be talking about you?
 
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#17
I am a Christian because God loves me.

I am a Christian because I have experienced supernatural things. My testimony to you of this should be encouraging. I'm not a liar. The Holy Spirit is real.

All of us here that really know God, know that He is real. I am reminded of a Parable of Christ. I'll write it here:

Matthew 13:3-23

“Listen! A farmer went out to plant some seeds. 4 As he scattered them across his field, some seeds fell on a footpath, and the birds came and ate them. 5 Other seeds fell on shallow soil with underlying rock. The seeds sprouted quickly because the soil was shallow. 6 But the plants soon wilted under the hot sun, and since they didn’t have deep roots, they died. 7 Other seeds fell among thorns that grew up and choked out the tender plants. 8 Still other seeds fell on fertile soil, and they produced a crop that was thirty, sixty, and even a hundred times as much as had been planted! 9 Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand.”

10 His disciples came and asked him, “Why do you use parables when you talk to the people?”

11 He replied, “You are permitted to understand the secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven, but others are not. 12 To those who listen to my teaching, more understanding will be given, and they will have an abundance of knowledge. But for those who are not listening, even what little understanding they have will be taken away from them. 13 That is why I use these parables,

For they look, but they don’t really see.
They hear, but they don’t really listen or understand.


14 This fulfills the prophecy of Isaiah that says,

‘When you hear what I say,
you will not understand.
When you see what I do,
you will not comprehend.
15 For the hearts of these people are hardened,
and their ears cannot hear,
and they have closed their eyes—
so their eyes cannot see,
and their ears cannot hear,
and their hearts cannot understand,
and they cannot turn to me
and let me heal them.’

16 “But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. 17 I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, but they didn’t see it. And they longed to hear what you hear, but they didn’t hear it.

18 “Now listen to the explanation of the parable about the farmer planting seeds:19 The seed that fell on the footpath represents those who hear the message about the Kingdom and don’t understand it. Then the evil one comes and snatches away the seed that was planted in their hearts.20 The seed on the rocky soil represents those who hear the message and immediately receive it with joy.21 But since they don’t have deep roots, they don’t last long. They fall away as soon as they have problems or are persecuted for believing God’s word.22 The seed that fell among the thorns represents those who hear God’s word, but all too quickly the message is crowded out by the worries of this life and the lure of wealth, so no fruit is produced.23 The seed that fell on good soil represents those who truly hear and understand God’s word and produce a harvest of thirty, sixty, or even a hundred times as much as had been planted!”

Hope that helps...:)
 
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#18
Hello everyone, I am a recent christian turned agnostic. (Please don't try to change my view points) but I would like to know why you believe what you believe? I personally let go of Christianity for many reasons, 1. because I am not intrested in following a god that has no business in helping me or trying to make me better, I have prayed,prayed, and prayed some more, but nothing not one speck of help from him. 2. I was happy when I was an unbeliever, and when I because a christian I was sad, depressed, anxiety ridden and ocd ridden all because if christianity, before this I was fine, but these past few months have been the worst of my life and after a year of faith, I am done. I have given up of the god of Christianity. 3. Too many rules, I have been troubled by soany rules in my life that I simply could not live without worrying about of I was sinning and I got sick of it ang gave it up. I still believe there could be a god, but that god is not knowable and not able to understand. I also do not believe in sin or salvation.
This is an honest and wonderful post!!

And this thread shows the problem I see with Christianity, but that is with Christianity and not the Lord.

Frankly, I am a Christian because Jesus Christ talks to me. It's that simple!

The first words He told me was "Read Your Bible". But I hear Him talk to me everyday and usually about a dozen times each day. The most common phrase I hear Him tell me is "I love you". Yet He will talk about anything with me. Sometimes it the littlest of seemingly unimportant things like what clothes to wear. And sometimes it is seemingly the biggest and most important things like who is going to be the next president of the United States of America. Like when Bush Jr, got elected President the first time in that weird election with the controversy in Florida, the Lord had told me he was going to be President from the beginning of the campaign. He teaches me and gives me wisdom like, "The best listeners make the best teachers". That makes sense doesn't it. If you want to know about God you would need to listen to Him, right?

Still, I had spent most of my life not knowing God. I was over 40 when I heard the words, "Read Your Bible". And before that, while I didn't think about it much, I felt like Logan. So Logan makes sense to me.

My parents to me to church as a kids, but when I listened to the Bible teachers they presented a story of a far off God who died a couple of thousand years ago. Oh, the say He rose from the grave and was alive and sometimes gave some testimony of God being in some far off place called heaven.

They would say something like:

I believe because I know Him.
I know Him like I know my son or my wife.
I have the Bible which is a book containing 66 books and letters, written by 40+ authors over a span of 1500 years and it agrees perfectly
I don't mean to get personal with JohnDB, but when I heard Christian say things like the above what can you make of it. There is something about knowing God like he knows his wife and kids but apparently he knows his wife and kids through books and letters. I mean, that is what JohnDB explained.

Of course I now know that JohnDB does probably know God like he knows his wife and kids. That is to say, JohnDB probably hears form God and God talks to him about all sorts of subjects, just like his wife and kids do. And God probably told JohnDB to read his Bible just like God told me to do. And because JohnDB hears God telling him to read his bible, he does so and learns more about God by reading the 66 books of which some are letters. So JohnDB doesn't believe in God because he reads the Bible but rather JohnDB reads the Bible because he believes in a God who tells him to do so. And that is what we find out when we take time to listen to God, and it is confirmed in the Bible.

It is written that faith comes from hearing.( Rm 10:17) So we hear God and believe. But then we have to take time to listen to God. And it is written that God is with us and talks to us, so if anyone will listen and open the door to God He will come into them. (Rev 3:20) And we are certainly not teaching a God that is in some faraway place called heaven or a God that died and is stuck in some placed called hell, but we are indeed preaching a God that is spirit so that you can pick up His words to you in your heart and even on your lips. (Rom 10: 6-10)

Still, we don't do a very good job of preaching that at times. We unintentionally wind up making God seem like some far of being who can't or won't some down from heaven to talk to and help people. He is not that, but we make Him seem like that. So Logan writes: " I am not intrested in following a god that has no business in helping me or trying to make me better,

We failed to make it clear that God is there and is fully interested in helping us to be better. That is what He does because He loves us. And it is not about a bunch of rules to be followed but a personal God to be known. We messed our message up!

The Holy Spirit once told me "Karl, we don't use the Lord to preach the preach the Scriptures, we use the Scriptures to preach the Lord."

If we get it backwards we start trying to turn people to the 66 books of the Bible instead of using the Bible to let them know that an understanding and loving God is really there to help them. Logan doesn't know that and we Christians did not make that clear. And so the devil and his hoard come in and make Logan's life miserable to make sure he doesn't think to consider going back to church incase that does become clear. We should have made it clear the first time.
 
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