Deborah13
Member
http://catholicism.about.com/od/holydaysandholidays/f/Calculate_Date.htm
Personally, I think it should be the first, first day of the week after Nisan 15.
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Growth Why has the Christian Faith abandoned the Passover and the Feast of unleavened bread?
- Thread starter The Poly Grip Kid
- Start date
http://catholicism.about.com/od/holydaysandholidays/f/Calculate_Date.htm
Personally, I think it should be the first, first day of the week after Nisan 15.
Tell it to the Pope.
http://catholicism.about.com/od/holydaysandholidays/f/Calculate_Date.htm
Personally, I think it should be the first, first day of the week after Nisan 15.
Deborah13
Member
I doubt he'd be of a mind to listen to me.
I'm kind of surprised that most Christian preachers will preach from the Old Testament as though it were relevant in our lives, yet would never celebrate a Jewish holiday from the Bible.
Especially since Jesus is in all of them.
It seems that Gentile preachers don't want to associate with Jews.
It's sort of like white families can be friends with black families but they don't want their children marrying into them.
People need to take a harder look at their Christianity.
Especially since Jesus is in all of them.
It seems that Gentile preachers don't want to associate with Jews.
It's sort of like white families can be friends with black families but they don't want their children marrying into them.
People need to take a harder look at their Christianity.
What does a Jewish Holiday have to do with Gentile Christians living in America?
At some point a person must rightly divide the word in order to apply it correctly.
My question seems to be:
Why do people who find it necessary to wear Jewish costumes and say Jewish words and phrases and keep Jewish Holidays in order to feel like they are being "spiritual" or holy?
JLB
Deborah13
Member
The church that my daughter goes to has one man who is Messianic that attends once or twice a month. He has preached a Sunday service once that I know of and last year he put on a seder. Everyone attended. There aren't any Messianic groups where we live so I don't know where he attends on the 7th day. Everyone really likes him and enjoy his input.
My husband and I traveled with friends in order to attend a mixed meeting of Messianics and those who weren't, over the days of unleavened bread and Resurrection Day. We were there four days, it was a wonderful time with lovely people who all loved the Lord. One leader there was Jewish born and the other Gentile. The band leader was Native American. Some blew shofars, some danced, and the identical twin Jewish young men were very interesting. Not sure what it was about, I didn't want to ask, but they both worshiped as though they were at the Wailing Wall. My husband humbled himself and gave his life to the Lord at that meeting. There was a little boy about nine yrs. old who ran down to the stage and was starring up behind the speaker. His dad went and got him and we heard him ask his dad if he could see the angels going up and down the ladder. It is an time ingrained in my heart, it was very special.
All of us will someday be together with our Lord, that will the day of rejoicing.
The Poly Grip Kid
Member
one has absolutley nothing to do with the other
you do realize that the person (Paul) who wrote the epistle to Timothy was in fact a Pharacee who did in fact observe Passover and celebrated the feast of unleavened bread as with all other Hebrew holy days he also instructed us ( us meaning all Christians whether Hebrew or Gentile) to celebrate the feast
JLB[/QUOTE] more traditional Jewish Passover Seders the leader of the order (Telling) will wear a white Kittel and Miter. I lead the order in our home but do not wear the Garments. I do however speak and read Hebrew in order that I may understand the the OT in its original context and I do however have a Tallit that I often use during prayer time but I don't think that makes me feel spiritual or holy BTW the Tallit is that prayer closet the Lord tells us to enter in in Matthew 6:6. Yeshua and all his disciples used Prayer Shawl's. People who celebrate Passover Seder don't do it to feel holy or spiritual we do it to Honor God in observance of the Deliverance of the Nation of Israel from bondage and out of the hands of Pharoh which is the typeology of our deliverance from sin and out of the hands of satan by Christ Jesus becoming our Passover Lamb. I think I have already explained this a few times you just choose to be close minded about the topic in which you seem tomhave such a problem with. since you serve a Hebrew God don't you think you should know a little bit about His customs?
the mind is like a parachute it only works when it is open.
YosefHayim
Member
And if the mind is too open, it becomes as an harlot, and stops working, for it recieves the mental STD of relativity and postmodernism...
Juuust putting that out there.
Please share your scripture that teaches we are instructed to keep
more traditional Jewish Passover Seders the leader of the order (Telling) will wear a white Kittel and Miter. I lead the order in our home but do not wear the Garments. I do however speak and read Hebrew in order that I may understand the the OT in its original context and I do however have a Tallit that I often use during prayer time but I don't think that makes me feel spiritual or holy BTW the Tallit is that prayer closet the Lord tells us to enter in in Matthew 6:6. Yeshua and all his disciples used Prayer Shawl's. People who celebrate Passover Seder don't do it to feel holy or spiritual we do it to Honor God in observance of the Deliverance of the Nation of Israel from bondage and out of the hands of Pharoh which is the typeology of our deliverance from sin and out of the hands of satan by Christ Jesus becoming our Passover Lamb. I think I have already explained this a few times you just choose to be close minded about the topic in which you seem tomhave such a problem with. since you serve a Hebrew God don't you think you should know a little bit about His customs?
the mind is like a parachute it only works when it is open.[/QUOTE]
I little leaven, leavens the whole lump.
I see folks who start off with a simple desire to understand more about Hebrew customs and it never seems to stop there s they get caught up in the legalism of the religion of Judaism. Tell people that God commands us this and that, and citing Old Testament scriptures out of context and from an obsolete covenant, while misapplying them to believers in the New Covenant, all the while thinking they are pleasing God, yet they never mention being led by the Spirit, laying hands on the sick and seeing them recover, preaching the Godpel, casting out devils, feeding the poor...
It's always seems to be this feast and that tradition and the next holiday and don't eat that and don't wear this, and on and on and on...
Even teaching that we must physically circumcise our children and keep the Sabbath as the law of Moses requires and don't eat pork or shrimp....
Always seems to start out with a little... Leaven.
JLB
YosefHayim
Member
I little leaven, leavens the whole lump.
I see folks who start off with a simple desire to understand more about Hebrew customs and it never seems to stop there s they get caught up in the legalism of the religion of Judaism. Tell people that God commands us this and that, and citing Old Testament scriptures out of context and from an obsolete covenant, while misapplying them to believers in the New Covenant, all the while thinking they are pleasing God, yet they never mention being led by the Spirit, laying hands on the sick and seeing them recover, preaching the Godpel, casting out devils, feeding the poor...
It's always seems to be this feast and that tradition and the next holiday and don't eat that and don't wear this, and on and on and on...
Even teaching that we must physically circumcise our children and keep the Sabbath as the law of Moses requires and don't eat pork or shrimp....
Always seems to start out with a little... Leaven.
JLB[/QUOTE]
I hear some accusations which seem like broad generalizations. Old Testament says that in the New Testament, the law would be written on the hearts. A lot of the Messianic Judaism I've seen believes not in works, but grace. Only observing the OT in acknowledgent that everything leads to Christ. It's the Hebrew Roots and Sacred Name movements that are more the problem.
I hear some accusations which seem like broad generalizations. Old Testament says that in the New Testament, the law would be written on the hearts. A lot of the Messianic Judaism I've seen believes not in works, but grace. Only observing the OT in acknowledgent that everything leads to Christ. It's the Hebrew Roots and Sacred Name movements that are more the problem.[/QUOTE]
Ok, maybe you can clear up a few things by answering some questions about what you personally believe.
Do you believe that we are required to physically circumcise our children or ourselves to be a part of the New Covenant? Yes or No.
Do you believe we are required by God to keep the Sabbath, according to the law of Moses.? Yes or No.
Do you believe it is a sin to eat pork or shrimp? Yes or No.
Thanks for your input.
JLB
I get accused of teaching the damnable works doctrine myself, because I believe in the obedience of faith.
Faith without works [ the work of obedience ] is dead.
Grace: is the unmerited power of God to us, that enables us to do what we can not do ourselves; ie: obey what God tells us to do.
This is called the obedience of faith. [Works] Not the works of the law, but the obedience of faith.
JLB
YosefHayim
Member
Ok, maybe you can clear up a few things by answering some questions about what you personally believe.
Do you believe that we are required to physically circumcise our children or ourselves to be a part of the New Covenant? Yes or No.
Do you believe we are required by God to keep the Sabbath, according to the law of Moses.? Yes or No.
Do you believe it is a sin to eat pork or shrimp? Yes or No.
Thanks for your input.
JLB[/QUOTE]
We are saved by grace through faith alone, and a born again Christian can't be seperated from the Love of God in Christ. We are kept, sanctified, and justified by Jesus alone (Phil 1:11, Rom 8:13)
The law came by Moses, but grace came by Jesus.
As Jesus said "Think not that I have come to destroy the law or prophets," so paul said "Do we make void the law? God forbid".
I believe it's about the Spirit leading you in you relationship with Christ.
I think observing the feasts would be a way to be more intimate with Christ, by observing what foreshadowed him.
I also believe that the dietary laws would have true health benefits. There's stuff in the OT we do today. Like sanitation with dead bodies. Science just had to catch up. Scripture also says "bread gives strength to the heart". Today the take out all the good stuff outta bread, or genetically modify it. And it becomes unhealthy just so it can keep longer. Yet real bread has Omega 3s and other good vitamins for the heart.
I don't think God is arbitrary in any of his ways.
But we are saved and kept by Yeshua.
We don't need to circumcise. We also aren't saved by baptism. God hates religion. He said it in Isaiah. "I hate your sabaths".
Do you believe that we are required to physically circumcise our children or ourselves to be a part of the New Covenant? Yes or No.
Do you believe we are required by God to keep the Sabbath, according to the law of Moses.? Yes or No.
Do you believe it is a sin to eat pork or shrimp? Yes or No.
JLB
YosefHayim
Member
Ok, maybe you can clear up a few things by answering some questions about what you personally believe.
Do you believe that we are required to physically circumcise our children or ourselves to be a part of the New Covenant? Yes or No.
Do you believe we are required by God to keep the Sabbath, according to the law of Moses.? Yes or No.
Do you believe it is a sin to eat pork or shrimp? Yes or No.
Thanks for your input.
JLB[/QUOTE]
We are saved by grace through faith alone, and a born again Christian can't be seperated from the Love of God in Christ. We are kept, sanctified, and justified by Jesus alone (Phil 1:11, Rom 8:13)
The law came by Moses, but grace came by Jesus.
As Jesus said "Think not that I have come to destroy the law or prophets," so paul said "Do we make void the law? God forbid".
I believe it's about the Spirit leading you in you relationship with Christ.
I think observing the feasts would be a way to be more intimate with Christ, by observing what foreshadowed him.
I also believe that the dietary laws would have true health benefits. There's stuff in the OT we do today. Like sanitation with dead bodies. Science just had to catch up. Scripture also says "bread gives strength to the heart". Today the take out all the good stuff outta bread, or genetically modify it. And it becomes unhealthy just so it can keep longer. Yet real bread has Omega 3s and other good vitamins for the heart.
I don't think God is arbitrary in any of his ways.
But we are saved and kept by Yeshua.
We don't need to circumcise. We also aren't saved by baptism. God hates religion. He said it in Isaiah. "I hate your sabaths".
I agree, though I think I may define it different.
Grace is getting what you don't deserve (like you said unmerited power, but also favour). Grace IS Jesus.
Grace teaches us to deny ungodliness.
I think we have to give up in our own efforts, because our righteousness is filthy rags. Our own works are selfishness and attempt to justify ourselves.
Through faith Christ works through us. (Eph 2:8-10, Phil 1:11)
The Spirit mortifies the flesh through us (Rom 8:13)
Scripture also says "the outer man perishes, and the inward man is renewed".
The flesh fades whe born again, and works become a result of the renewal of the Spirit.
YosefHayim
Member
Deborah13
Member
You do realize that the person (Paul) who wrote the epistle to Timothy in fact did not sacrifice the passover or eat the feast of unleavened bread or any of the other feasts for at least the fourteen years that he never returned to Jerusalem. Or if he did observe it, it was not in the manor of the commandment in Moses' Law. I believe he observed the Lord's Supper.
Deu 22:11 Thou shalt not wear a mingled stuff, wool and linen together.
Deu 22:12 Thou shalt make thee twisted cords upon the four corners of thy covering, wherewith thou coverest thyself.
Num 15:38 'Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them throughout their generations fringes in the corners of their garments, and that they put with the fringe of each corner a thread of blue.
Num 15:39 And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the LORD, and do them; and that ye go not about after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go astray;
Now what are the scriptures describing? A prayer shawl? Not hardly. This is talking about the tzitzit, the cord (fringe) with the blue thread. Where and when is it to be worn? On the corners of a garment where one will see it all day long to remind them of all of God's law given in Torah or more specifically Moses' Law.
Did one need to only remember the Law when they were praying? That doesn't make any sense at all. Once again we are seeing the traditions of men, not the Law as given to Moses.
I agree with you that our Lord had the tzitzit on His garment and I even believe that is what the woman with the issue of blood touched (the border of His garment) when the Lord healed her. He was born under the law and fulfilled the true meaning of Moses' Law in every way, every day.
If I were going to do an OT seder for my family and those within my gates, it would not look like what the Orthodox and Reformed Jews do. This is what most Messianic people do. I would eat the passover that I see in the OT. Roasted lamb. The Karaite Jews, who do not abide by the Talmud and other oral law, that has been added to God's word, eat the roasted lamb. They do not drink fermented wine. They do not drink 4 cups just one, grape juice with their meal. I don't see 4 cups of wine spoken of in any covenant, at all. Do you?
When we tell other believers that they should be doing something we need to have the witness of God's word ready to give them. So where is the scripture that bears witness to the 4 cups that you said Jesus drank? Either under Moses' Law or the new covenant. If you can produce it you would have a case for someone doing that. Otherwise, it is tradition. I'm not even saying that it is a bad tradition, just that it is tradition and not a commandment.
Ok, Thanks for your answer.
I see where Paul clearly said the law, which was commandments contained in ordinances were done away with.
JLB