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Why I can't believe in rapture theory

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#1
So many people believe in a rapture without any proof or evidence except "this word means this or this word means that" when quoting scripture.
Matt.24:13 Jesus said he who endure to the end shall be saved.
24:21 He mentions the tribulation and what will happen during it,then in verse 29,He states that immediately after the tribulation the Angels will reap,verse31.
The new fad now is that Revelations 4:1 describes a rapture because John was told to "come up hither"
John had a vision like Daniel,Ezekiel,and others.He was not physically taken to Heaven.He certainly wasn't dead at that point and the Bible states plainly flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven.Even Paul stated that he was caught up......would that constitute another rapture theory..
 
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#2
The new fad now is that Revelations 4:1 describes a rapture because John was told to "come up hither"
Hi Brother joseph lentz, just a question here would be what do you consider to be the Lord's Day of Rev 1:10 that John found himself?
Even Paul stated that he was caught up......would that constitute another rapture theory..
Even Paul did not know whether he was in or out of body according to 2 Cor 12:2.
Matt.24:13 Jesus said he who endure to the end shall be saved.
Being that Matthew Chapter Twenty-four is dealing with the tribulation, are you of the opinion that all believers are to go through it?
Would those round about Jesus' throne of Rev 4:4 & in the midst of the throne of Rev 4:6 prior to the tribulation have had to be caught up to be seen by John in heaven? Thanks.
 
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#3
Hi Eugene,
Depends on what "The Lord's Day" refers to here....Today we would call it Sunday.
Yes I believe all believers will go through it.Matthew made that plain.Also when you go through the Chapters of Revelations,at the end of every horrible thing,around the last verse it always mentions the Saints still here.I will have to look again to pick out specifics.

4:4 Keep in Mind John was seeing things that had already happened{like the white horse/Holy spirit being sent on Pentecost]
Chapter 12 The war in Heaven(Christ defeating Satan and casting him out of His mind),as well as future events.It had to be a vision in order to see all of that and those around the Throne.
And again John was still in the flesh.
 
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JLB

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#4
So many people believe in a rapture without any proof or evidence except "this word means this or this word means that" when quoting scripture.
Matt.24:13 Jesus said he who endure to the end shall be saved.
24:21 He mentions the tribulation and what will happen during it,then in verse 29,He states that immediately after the tribulation the Angels will reap,verse31.
The new fad now is that Revelations 4:1 describes a rapture because John was told to "come up hither"
John had a vision like Daniel,Ezekiel,and others.He was not physically taken to Heaven.He certainly wasn't dead at that point and the Bible states plainly flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven.Even Paul stated that he was caught up......would that constitute another rapture theory..

There is definitely a Rapture, but it happens at the coming of the Lord, after the tribulation, just a moment after the resurrection of the dead in Christ, in which all His people will be gathered together to Him, in the clouds, in the air.

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17



JLB
 

JLB

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#6
If you are calling when Christ returns at his second coming a rapture,I will agree.
Yes, the resurrection/rapture happens at His coming, the second coming.




JLB
 
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#7
So many people believe in a rapture without any proof or evidence except "this word means this or this word means that" when quoting scripture.
Matt.24:13 Jesus said he who endure to the end shall be saved.
24:21 He mentions the tribulation and what will happen during it,then in verse 29,He states that immediately after the tribulation the Angels will reap,verse31.
The new fad now is that Revelations 4:1 describes a rapture because John was told to "come up hither"
John had a vision like Daniel,Ezekiel,and others.He was not physically taken to Heaven.He certainly wasn't dead at that point and the Bible states plainly flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven.Even Paul stated that he was caught up......would that constitute another rapture theory..
I'm a retired Army officer and spent my last 7 or so years on a General staff doing plans at high levels.

I mention this as I may be a bit institutionalized in my approach.

A principle we used was called backwards planning. All based on facts (the things we knew were clear and true) and assumptions (the things we had to go out and look for which we figured would give us the best estimate).

I think in any discussion of rapture we need to know the facts first. Is rapture an actual word used in the Bible? I think yes it is fact:

In 1 Thessalonians 4, we see in verse 17 the following:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

"Caught up" bolded above is in the Greek "harpazo." But how did all these theologians get "rapture" from "harpazo?" They were operating from the Latin Vulgate:

deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus (1 Thessalonians 4:17 Latin Vulgate)

Bolded is the Latin for rapture. So we know this rapture word exists. It's in the Bible (some claim it is not, and that is another story).

So looking at the itty bitty particulars, sure enough the apostle Paul tells us at some point the dead in Christ and those alive and remaining will be caught up to be with the Lord evermore. This was to be a comfort for the Thessalonians. It also says we will meet Christ in the clouds. In verse 14 it says we will be with Him.

Wow wonderful facts we have here. I'm rejoicing in this.

Ok, the big missing puzzle is "when in time and space does this happen?" That's the one billion dollar question isn't it?

This may help:

Read Revelation 19 and you will see the marriage supper of the Lamb. The bride is given white to wear and we see those arrayed in white follow Jesus Christ, the Faithful and True to earth to battle the beast, false prophet and their armies.

If the Bride is the church, and we meet Christ in the clouds being caught up, and we have this marriage feast, and given white garments and then follow Him to battle, we get a picture IMO.

The rapture happens for certain before Jesus gets on the white horse to judge the nations. His Second Advent when He comes as conquering King to Judge.

So there is no question to me reading these passages that "we" His bride are with Him after we sup with Him in Heaven and then accompany Him to glorious victory.

Ok but when is this rapture which leads to the marriage supper?

Some say pre tribulation. I've seen the arguments for this and admit it is convincing.

Some say pre wrath during the tribulation or at the last of the Trumpet judgements. This too has merits.

Some say rapture happens at the end of the tribulation just before Christ returns. There is also evidence supporting this view.

Some say the rapture is the actual judgment day when all are resurrected. This view has support too but I think ignores quite a lot.

I'm sure there are more views, however I wanted to lay out what we know (facts) and what we think we know (educated assumptions).

How do we navigate such opposing and differing views? How should we then live no knowing for certain? Go with what is CERTAIN. Read Matthew 25 where the Virgins were to keep their lamps trimmed and have enough oil on hand. Jesus gave us that parable. The apostle Paul also exhorted his readers to live pure lives and anticipate the Coming of our Master as if it would be tomorrow.

I think we all could "get behind" such an eschatology. Be ready, anticipate live holy lives.
 
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#8
So many people believe in a rapture without any proof or evidence except "this word means this or this word means that" when quoting scripture.
Matt.24:13 Jesus said he who endure to the end shall be saved.
24:21 He mentions the tribulation and what will happen during it,then in verse 29,He states that immediately after the tribulation the Angels will reap,verse31.
The new fad now is that Revelations 4:1 describes a rapture because John was told to "come up hither"
John had a vision like Daniel,Ezekiel,and others.He was not physically taken to Heaven.He certainly wasn't dead at that point and the Bible states plainly flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven.Even Paul stated that he was caught up......would that constitute another rapture theory..
1Thes 4:13-17 is the Believer's Assurance of the Rapture that Pegasus is alluding to. Like him I know there are three major positions on the timing of this, certain, event that I feel is coming soon, maybe before I pass over and I am on my Death Bed so I do mean soon.

The first usual objection is pure tom-foolery, the Word Rapture cannot be found in the Bible. That is not true, I'm instructed that the Greek word for rapture is found in one of the two, I believe it is, major Koine Greek Translations, one of the manuscripts used to get the English Versions.

And FYI, like Pegasus, I spent eight years in the Army serving under men just like him and I never got over it. Left leaning folks, automatically have a bone to pick with me because I quit after my third tour in Vietnam because I was sick of watching my men get blown out of the air. I love organization and the scriptures are organized, perfectly.

The Bible is the first thirty-nine books of the Christian Bible, that is the Bible Jesus, Paul, Mark, James, and the others used to preach the Gospel Truth from. The following twenty-seven books, the misnamed New Testament, including the four Gospels, are the only God spoken/inspired Life Application Commentaries I know of in this world.

May God pour out the same blessings on you as you study to know Him as He has on me!
 
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#9
He was not physically taken to Heaven.He certainly wasn't dead at that point and the Bible states plainly flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven
I'm still studying about the rapture so wont comment on the when and all that, but I do know that quite a few raptures happened in scripture. Elijah, Enoch, Ezekiel, Phillip, and John and perhaps others, but I remember studying about the no flesh and blood can go there and what that really means is that no sinful flesh & blood can enter. Redeemed believers can. Enoch and Elijah are prime examples of that.

I'm a little curious as to your statement "So many people believe in a rapture without any proof or evidence except "this word means this or this word means that" when quoting scripture..." because as one of the household of faith should know that, first one chooses to believe God and His Word (puts his faith in God and trusts Him), and afterward comes understanding and revelation. You don't have to have proof or understanding to have faith in Jesus, that's a choice to trust Him. After you trust Him, then He reveals Himself. Faith comes first, Brother. It's all about faith and not proof.
 

JLB

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#10
I'm a retired Army officer and spent my last 7 or so years on a General staff doing plans at high levels.

I mention this as I may be a bit institutionalized in my approach.

A principle we used was called backwards planning. All based on facts (the things we knew were clear and true) and assumptions (the things we had to go out and look for which we figured would give us the best estimate).

I think in any discussion of rapture we need to know the facts first. Is rapture an actual word used in the Bible? I think yes it is fact:

In 1 Thessalonians 4, we see in verse 17 the following:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

"Caught up" bolded above is in the Greek "harpazo." But how did all these theologians get "rapture" from "harpazo?" They were operating from the Latin Vulgate:

deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus (1 Thessalonians 4:17 Latin Vulgate)

Bolded is the Latin for rapture. So we know this rapture word exists. It's in the Bible (some claim it is not, and that is another story).

So looking at the itty bitty particulars, sure enough the apostle Paul tells us at some point the dead in Christ and those alive and remaining will be caught up to be with the Lord evermore. This was to be a comfort for the Thessalonians. It also says we will meet Christ in the clouds. In verse 14 it says we will be with Him.

Wow wonderful facts we have here. I'm rejoicing in this.

Ok, the big missing puzzle is "when in time and space does this happen?" That's the one billion dollar question isn't it?

This may help:

Read Revelation 19 and you will see the marriage supper of the Lamb. The bride is given white to wear and we see those arrayed in white follow Jesus Christ, the Faithful and True to earth to battle the beast, false prophet and their armies.

If the Bride is the church, and we meet Christ in the clouds being caught up, and we have this marriage feast, and given white garments and then follow Him to battle, we get a picture IMO.

The rapture happens for certain before Jesus gets on the white horse to judge the nations. His Second Advent when He comes as conquering King to Judge.

So there is no question to me reading these passages that "we" His bride are with Him after we sup with Him in Heaven and then accompany Him to glorious victory.

Ok but when is this rapture which leads to the marriage supper?

Some say pre tribulation. I've seen the arguments for this and admit it is convincing.

Some say pre wrath during the tribulation or at the last of the Trumpet judgements. This too has merits.

Some say rapture happens at the end of the tribulation just before Christ returns. There is also evidence supporting this view.

Some say the rapture is the actual judgment day when all are resurrected. This view has support too but I think ignores quite a lot.

I'm sure there are more views, however I wanted to lay out what we know (facts) and what we think we know (educated assumptions).

How do we navigate such opposing and differing views? How should we then live no knowing for certain? Go with what is CERTAIN. Read Matthew 25 where the Virgins were to keep their lamps trimmed and have enough oil on hand. Jesus gave us that parable. The apostle Paul also exhorted his readers to live pure lives and anticipate the Coming of our Master as if it would be tomorrow.

I think we all could "get behind" such an eschatology. Be ready, anticipate live holy lives.

There is no question what so ever as to when the rapture happens, and verse 17 is the key.

  • The rapture takes place at His coming.
  • The rapture takes place just a moment after the resurrection.
  • The resurrection and rapture are one event that take place at His coming.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

  • The raptured ones are caught up together with the resurrected ones.
  • This event is referred to as the gathering, whereby all His people are gathered together.

Paul wrote a second letter to this people, to clarify their misunderstanding they had, due to misinformation from the enemy.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4


Three major things happen at the coming of the Lord.

  1. The resurrection of the dead in Christ
  2. The Rapture
  3. The destruction of the false messiah. [aka: the antichrist]

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:5-8



JLB
 
Joined
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#11
I'm a retired Army officer and spent my last 7 or so years on a General staff doing plans at high levels.

I mention this as I may be a bit institutionalized in my approach.

A principle we used was called backwards planning. All based on facts (the things we knew were clear and true) and assumptions (the things we had to go out and look for which we figured would give us the best estimate).

I think in any discussion of rapture we need to know the facts first. Is rapture an actual word used in the Bible? I think yes it is fact:

In 1 Thessalonians 4, we see in verse 17 the following:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

"Caught up" bolded above is in the Greek "harpazo." But how did all these theologians get "rapture" from "harpazo?" They were operating from the Latin Vulgate:

deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus (1 Thessalonians 4:17 Latin Vulgate)

Bolded is the Latin for rapture. So we know this rapture word exists. It's in the Bible (some claim it is not, and that is another story).

So looking at the itty bitty particulars, sure enough the apostle Paul tells us at some point the dead in Christ and those alive and remaining will be caught up to be with the Lord evermore. This was to be a comfort for the Thessalonians. It also says we will meet Christ in the clouds. In verse 14 it says we will be with Him.

Wow wonderful facts we have here. I'm rejoicing in this.

Ok, the big missing puzzle is "when in time and space does this happen?" That's the one billion dollar question isn't it?

This may help:

Read Revelation 19 and you will see the marriage supper of the Lamb. The bride is given white to wear and we see those arrayed in white follow Jesus Christ, the Faithful and True to earth to battle the beast, false prophet and their armies.

If the Bride is the church, and we meet Christ in the clouds being caught up, and we have this marriage feast, and given white garments and then follow Him to battle, we get a picture IMO.

The rapture happens for certain before Jesus gets on the white horse to judge the nations. His Second Advent when He comes as conquering King to Judge.

So there is no question to me reading these passages that "we" His bride are with Him after we sup with Him in Heaven and then accompany Him to glorious victory.

Ok but when is this rapture which leads to the marriage supper?

Some say pre tribulation. I've seen the arguments for this and admit it is convincing.

Some say pre wrath during the tribulation or at the last of the Trumpet judgements. This too has merits.

Some say rapture happens at the end of the tribulation just before Christ returns. There is also evidence supporting this view.

Some say the rapture is the actual judgment day when all are resurrected. This view has support too but I think ignores quite a lot.

I'm sure there are more views, however I wanted to lay out what we know (facts) and what we think we know (educated assumptions).

How do we navigate such opposing and differing views? How should we then live no knowing for certain? Go with what is CERTAIN. Read Matthew 25 where the Virgins were to keep their lamps trimmed and have enough oil on hand. Jesus gave us that parable. The apostle Paul also exhorted his readers to live pure lives and anticipate the Coming of our Master as if it would be tomorrow.

I think we all could "get behind" such an eschatology. Be ready, anticipate live holy lives.
:clap:clap:clap:clap:clap
 
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#12
I'm still studying about the rapture so wont comment on the when and all that, but I do know that quite a few raptures happened in scripture. Elijah, Enoch, Ezekiel, Phillip, and John and perhaps others, but I remember studying about the no flesh and blood can go there and what that really means is that no sinful flesh & blood can enter. Redeemed believers can. Enoch and Elijah are prime examples of that.

I'm a little curious as to your statement "So many people believe in a rapture without any proof or evidence except "this word means this or this word means that" when quoting scripture..." because as one of the household of faith should know that, first one chooses to believe God and His Word (puts his faith in God and trusts Him), and afterward comes understanding and revelation. You don't have to have proof or understanding to have faith in Jesus, that's a choice to trust Him. After you trust Him, then He reveals Himself. Faith comes first, Brother. It's all about faith and not proof.
That would be assuming,about the "sinful flesh and blood",the Scriptures say nothing to that effect. As to Elijah and others,I'm sure they were Translated.
 
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#13
I'm still studying about the rapture so wont comment on the when and all that, but I do know that quite a few raptures happened in scripture. Elijah, Enoch, Ezekiel, Phillip, and John and perhaps others, but I remember studying about the no flesh and blood can go there and what that really means is that no sinful flesh & blood can enter. Redeemed believers can. Enoch and Elijah are prime examples of that.

I'm a little curious as to your statement "So many people believe in a rapture without any proof or evidence except "this word means this or this word means that" when quoting scripture..." because as one of the household of faith should know that, first one chooses to believe God and His Word (puts his faith in God and trusts Him), and afterward comes understanding and revelation. You don't have to have proof or understanding to have faith in Jesus, that's a choice to trust Him. After you trust Him, then He reveals Himself. Faith comes first, Brother. It's all about faith and not proof.
That would be assuming,about the "sinful flesh and blood",the Scriptures say nothing to that effect. As to Elijah and others,I'm sure they were Translated.
 
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#14
That would be assuming,about the "sinful flesh and blood",the Scriptures say nothing to that effect. As to Elijah and others,I'm sure they were Translated.
JL,
Aside from being skewed, your theology is not based on scripture read in faith with prayer that has been answered by Yahweh. If you truly believe what you are posting, you need a whole Bible study.
 
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#15
That would be assuming,about the "sinful flesh and blood",the Scriptures say nothing to that effect. As to Elijah and others,I'm sure they were Translated.
Translated...raptured...yes, that's accurate. "Come up hither". Phillip was too, but it was from earth to another point on earth, some 20-25 miles away after he baptized the Ethiopian.More and more people are learning about translation in this season and I've noticed that they're tending to use a slighty different terms for if they wer being translated to heaven (Translated), or in the case of earth to earth, they're calling it Trans-relocation for easy clarifications sake.

I've heard several testimonies where God is translocating people around the globe to witness to people, and actually has been doing this for quite awhile but people have been keeping it quiet for fear of being ridiculed and thought to be liars. More than one has said that translation will be more widely used by Christians in the last days because it will get harder and harder to travel especially after the mark of the beast comes out. Used by Christians is perhaps the wrong way to say that because it is not believer initiated, but always by God alone. I could dig some of those video testimonials up if you wish.

JL,
Aside from being skewed, your theology is not based on scripture read in faith with prayer that has been answered by Yahweh. If you truly believe what you are posting, you need a whole Bible study.
Exactly, Brother. What I said is true.
 
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#16
Many people would be doubtful of the validity of people claiming to have been translated, and rightly so to be cautious. This one is one of them that says it's been happening to the husband since the 1950's or some such. They've kept quiet about it all these years but the combination of them getting older and may die soon, coupled with the fact that these truths are starting to be talked about brought them out of the closet about it. They're not seeking money or notoriety and are certainly not the type of folks who who lie about it. They've nothing to gain.

He says that many times he's translocated to China to preach to people. Found himself up on a rooftop over there once so began preaching from the roof and drew a crowd! The wife knew full well what was going on and would stay home and watch over his body while he was gone. It's super cool and I love testimonies like this. They talk pretty soft so may have to turn it up some. It's a good watch. I totally believe it.


From what I understand, translocation will be a primary source of travel for believers in the mark of the beast season, for both protection and for witnessing to unbelievers. (I can't wait!) :yes
:whirl
 
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#18
There is no question what so ever as to when the rapture happens, and verse 17 is the key.

  • The rapture takes place at His coming.
  • The rapture takes place just a moment after the resurrection.
  • The resurrection and rapture are one event that take place at His coming.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

  • The raptured ones are caught up together with the resurrected ones.
  • This event is referred to as the gathering, whereby all His people are gathered together.

Paul wrote a second letter to this people, to clarify their misunderstanding they had, due to misinformation from the enemy.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4


Three major things happen at the coming of the Lord.

  1. The resurrection of the dead in Christ
  2. The Rapture
  3. The destruction of the false messiah. [aka: the antichrist]

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:5-8



JLB
JLB, are you referring to the blessed of the first resurrection? (Revelation 20).
 
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#19
Reading the people. Those are humble older folks brother. I'm not asking you to believe it, I said "I" believe it.

Any Scriptural proof of that?
That would be in Brother Grubbs 12:14...Lol. No it's not in scripture, it's a video. A testimonial interview. There's quite a few other ones too, would you like me to post another one or three? I bet you didn't even watch this one. I'm thinking that perhaps you don't believe anything outside of scripture (and not even all of scripture too apparently). I think it's a mistake to consider the scriptures temporally. We should be contemplating them eternally. Scripture does say that in the last days that the Lord will pour out His Spirit upon all flesh, and knowledge shall be increased.

So you must not believe that? Or will they be adding chapters to the canon or something? Honest questions. I don't have all the answers, I don't understand it all completely. We don't need to be able to. I choose to put my faith into our Lord Jesus, and trust...that in my weakness of understanding, that no one can snatch me from His hand. That His word will not come back to Him void. I will receive revelation of increased knowledge from the Lord because I have faith in Him.

Extra-biblical does not mean anti-biblical. I know, I know. I already know what you're going to say...unless you can put your hand in his side and feel the nail prints, that you wont believe...
:poke :lol
 

JLB

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#20
JLB, are you referring to the blessed of the first resurrection? (Revelation 20).

The resurrection of the dead in Christ, and the rapture is one event, that takes place at His coming.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

  • we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...

That is all His people, caught up together with Him in the air, at His coming.

He also destroys the false messiah, with the brightness of His coming.

Three major things happen at the coming of the Lord.

  1. The resurrection of the dead in Christ
  2. The Rapture
  3. The destruction of the false messiah. [aka: the antichrist]


JLB