civilwarbuff
Member
Something I don't believe I have ever had explained: Why would Messiah wait until after the Tribulation when His people have been persecuted and killed then Rapture them? What purpose could that possibly serve Him?
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Why I can't believe in rapture theory
- Thread starter joseph lentz
- Start date
The Resurrection is those those who have died, in Christ.
Dead people don't get raptured.
The Rapture is for those who are alive and remain.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52
All those who are His will be changed, and have immortal bodies that will never die: some will be resurrected, some will be raptured.
JLB
Pegasus
Member
There are two resurrection events in Revelation 20. The first which is said "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."
Later in Chapter 20 we have; And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Two events here. This is where just about every eschatological theory has the wheels come off the cart.
The first resurrection event mentioned in Revelation 20 is not a meeting in the clouds before the Day of the Lord (Revelation 19). It's clear it is for those who go through the tribulation and are faithful in testimony of Christ.
So now we have to consider a third event to address the rapture in the clouds with the Lord.
Not so easy now unless we start stuffing in our own ideas. The normal hand wave is Revelation 19 and 20 are not related. But they truly are.
Frankly I don't think any of the on the shelf eschatological theories have a solid answer.
I speak of Futurist options not preterist or amillennial, as the latter IMHO don't work at all.
So we can explore the futurist options if you like.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17
This is the Resurrection/Rapture of all His people at His coming.
The same coming by which the antichrist is destroyed.
What about this do you want to discuss?
JLB
civilwarbuff
Member
The resurrection/rapture at His coming is before any resurrection that takes place after the 1000 years of revelation 20.
The resurrection at His coming, is associated with the rapture and is the topic of this thread.
The three major things that happen at His coming coming are:
- The resurrection of the dead in Christ.
- The rapture
- the destruction of the antichrist.
You have addressed none of these things.
This resurrection at His coming addresses the dead in Christ.
JLB
Pegasus
Member
JLB, this is what I was asking about.
Revelation 20: NKJV
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
Bolded above. I don't think the above is the rapture and it is not the GWT judgment.
But it is clear from the text this resurrection is the first resurrection. What does that make the rapture which comes before it?
daninthelionsden
Member
What I see when I step back and look objectively at pre/mid/post trib rapture, is that the first two are all about saving one's mortal hide. While these are most definitely desirable positions, I believe they miss the mark of Christ's warnings of what to expect at the end of days.
The resurrection comes before the rapture.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
- And the dead in Christ will rise first.
- Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them
This event is called the gathering, whereby all His people are Gathered together to Him, in the air, at His coming.
24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:27
- gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
The scriptures teach the resurrection of the dead in Christ, will occur at His coming, then the rapture, as one event, in which His people will be gathered together to be with Him, and He destroys the antichrist, and the wicked on the Day of the Lord.
- Revelation 20 is a picture of that event:
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.
The Beast and His Armies Defeated -
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. Revelation 19:11-20:6
JLB
Pegasus
Member
Some of the traditional Futurist theories look to the parable of wheat and tares as justification of the church (His bride) going through the tribulation. Theory is the church will be purged of the tares during the tribulation and the wheat will be evident of those who endure to the end. There is Scriptural substantiation for this. However, there is also Scriptural substantiation for a pre-wrath and pre-trib rapture.
One of the reasons I no longer get into 'fist fights' on these matters. There are brethren from all points who argue pre, mid and post trib rapture. We can disagree and still sit at the Lord's Table.
Frankly, everyone's 'personal rapture' happens when we take our last breath here on earth. Frankly, at that point this is all academic so to speak.
th1b.taylor
Member
But sir,
this passage describes 2 raptures and I make them to be a thousand years apart. The passage notes that the people, specifically of the First Rapture, these will not know the second death. It does not, as I read it, make such a declaration of the folks in the Second Rapture and we know from our studies that the Judgement of the Saints will be much as were the Greek Games and like unto a Bema Seat Judgement where we receive our Rewards, Crowns, that in celebration we can cast at His feet.
From other passages we know of the GWT Judgement and all of the Dead Not in The Christ will not have passed until God Burns the Earth and destroys it. Hope I fully understood and that this helps.
th1b.taylor
Member
I, honestly, cannot agree. That a few will still be alive is certain because of all the Rapture Scriptures gathered together tell us it is so but as I understand it, those still living will not get the Full Meal Deal, so as to speak. And since 1/1/90 I have known a lot of people that call themselves by the title, Christian. But then, just as the Barna Groups survey of the Christian Church in the mid-eighties demonstrated, only a little less than 2% of the membership, across the nation, believe the Basic tenants of the Christian Faith.
Pegasus
Member
Ok now I see you connecting the dots. You see in Revelation chapter 20, the event called the First Resurrection is 'happening' simultaneously with the rapture?
What might make this difficult (if it is indeed your position), is Revelation 20 is a continuation of events from Revelation 19. If we take the manmade chapters and verses away it is one narrative.
This is what I mean:
Revelation Chapter 19 and 20 (ending with the beginning of the 1,000 year reign) without chapter division or verses:
And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Taking the above as one narrative we have:
1. The judgment of Babylon complete.
2. Marriage Supper of the Lamb---arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
3. Jesus Christ gathering the Heavenly host to come in judgment of the beast and false prophet---And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
4. Mounted up for war, we then see those in fine linen, clean and white accompanying Jesus----And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
5. Then we see the Second Advent of Jesus Christ as conquering King. The beast and false prophet armies destroyed--And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
6. Beast and false prophet thrown in Lake of Fire.----These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
7. All remaining of the beast's armies are slain----And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
8. Then Satan is bound for a 1,000 years---And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
9. Then thrones judgment and 1,000 years of Christ as King on earth ushered in. Called the first resurrection.---
Now that I laid out the events as described, where do you see the rapture occurring?
civilwarbuff
Member
I am kinda the same way tho if there is a pre-trib rapture the post tribbers are going with us whether they want to or not. They can take it up with God when they get there.....
Pegasus
Member
I am kinda the same way tho if there is a pre-trib rapture the post tribbers are going with us whether they want to or not. They can take it up with God when they get there.....
daninthelionsden
Member
One thing we do agree on Bill, is the 2% factor. I wouldn't be at all surprised if that number were more like .02%.
n2thelight
Member
Christ expects a virgin bride
II Corinthians 11:2 "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."
The danger of believing in the rapture is, you will become a whore to satan.
satan comes first,pretending to be Christ.
The tribulation is all about deception,not death and destruction,if you don't understand this,you will believe the lie
II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion , that they should a lie;"
Revelation 13:13 "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men."
Revelation 13:14 "And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles [signs] which he had power [it was given him] to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live."
The lie is satan pretending to be Christ
II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."
When satan heals the deadly wound which is a one world system,it becomes a one world religous system.
At this point those who don't have the seal of God,will take the mark,thus becoming whores of satan,instead of virgins to Christ.
So ,why may I ask does God's servants need to be sealed,if they not gonna be here?
Bottom line, there will be no rapture,you either will have the seal of God,which is knowledge of the truth,or you will take the mark and become one of satans whores.
II Corinthians 11:2 "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."
The danger of believing in the rapture is, you will become a whore to satan.
satan comes first,pretending to be Christ.
The tribulation is all about deception,not death and destruction,if you don't understand this,you will believe the lie
II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion , that they should a lie;"
Revelation 13:13 "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men."
Revelation 13:14 "And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles [signs] which he had power [it was given him] to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live."
The lie is satan pretending to be Christ
II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."
When satan heals the deadly wound which is a one world system,it becomes a one world religous system.
At this point those who don't have the seal of God,will take the mark,thus becoming whores of satan,instead of virgins to Christ.
So ,why may I ask does God's servants need to be sealed,if they not gonna be here?
Bottom line, there will be no rapture,you either will have the seal of God,which is knowledge of the truth,or you will take the mark and become one of satans whores.
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Why would you think Revelation 19-20 are man made?
Revelation 19:11-20:6, show us the same resurrection and destruction of the wicked as 2 Thessalonians shows us.
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.
The Beast and His Armies Defeated -
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. Revelation 19:11-20:6
And again -
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
The coming of the Lord to gather together of His people:
- the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him. 2 Thessalonians 2:1
The coming of the Lord to destroy the wicked:
- And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8
JLB
joseph lentz
Member
Rev.9:4 If the Church is raptured "so called",then who are being refered to here?