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Why I can't believe in rapture theory
- Thread starter joseph lentz
- Start date
Pegasus
Member
What you just presented was a pre wrath rapture. Not a simultaneous one with the second Advent. You tied the rapture to the man of sin revealed. That could also be used by pre trib rapture adherents.
This is the issue I speak of with every eschatological theory.
If one sticks to John 14 then you can't go wrong.
Actually that is what I posted, that 19 and 20 show us Jesus coming.
Revelation 19:11-20:6, show us the same resurrection and destruction of the wicked as 2 Thessalonians shows us.
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. Revelation 19:11-20:6
Which is what 2 Thessalonians shows:
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
The coming of the Lord to gather together of His people:
- the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him. 2 Thessalonians 2:1
The coming of the Lord to destroy the wicked:
- And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8
JLB
No sir.
The resurrection and rapture are one event that occurs at His coming.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17
The resurrection comes a moment before the rapture, resulting in both the resurrected ones and raptured ones caught up together to be with the Lord, at His coming.
This same coming is what destroys the false messiah.
This coming is also pictured in Revelation 19.
JLB
Pegasus
Member
I will look at the passages you presented with fresher eyes this upcoming week. I have to look at the Revelation passage in conjunction with your citations from 2 Thessalonians.
I think the impasse I've seen studying this a few years ago was the event of the marriage supper in the Kings domain (Heaven) and the bride present. Compared to meeting Him in the clouds as He has already left Heaven for His coming. That's what I was getting at.
Understanding time and space are a creation of God. However, looking at Revelation 19, it seems the first Resurrection is on earth and after His Second victorious coming.
But let me do the respectful courtesy of looking at the events as you laid them out and come back.
n2thelight
Member
Rapturist, at what point in time did Christ return become imminent?
- Before His ascension, Christ prophesied the coming of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. Because of this prophecy, Christ could not come until His words had been fulfilled on the day of Pentecost. Thus from His ascension to Pentecost, Christ's return was not imminent. (Lk. 24:49).
- Before His ascension, Christ prophesied that Peter would grow old; he would then be captured and finally be martyred for his testimony for Him. Because of this prophecy, Christ could not return as long as Peter was alive. Peter had to grow old, be captured, and finally be martyred to fulfill the words of Christ. All the Christians knew that as long as Peter was alive, Jesus could not come. Peter died around A.D. 67. Thus from the ascension to Peter's death (67 A.D.), Christ's return was not imminent. (John 21: 18-19; 1 Pet. 1:13-15).
- Having established that Christ's coming was not imminent until Peter's death (A.D. 67), none of Paul’s or Peter's Epistles can have any references to an imminent return of Christ because all of the epistles were written before A.D. 67 and both men knew the prophecies of Christ, and that His coming was not possible at that time. The epistles of Paul and Peter make no reference to an imminent return of Christ.
- Before His ascension, Christ prophesied that His church would be planted in Jerusalem, then Judea, then Samaria, and then to “the ends of the earth.” This prophecy was not fulfilled by the early church and has yet to be fully fulfilled. Until the church has been planted in every tribe, tongue and nation, Christ's coming is not imminent. (Acts 1:8; Matt. 28:19, 20; MK. 16:15; Lk. 24:7f; Rev. 7:9).
- Before His ascension, Christ prophesied the total destruction of Herod's temple by foreign armies. The temple was not destroyed until A.D. 70. Thus from His ascension to the destruction of Herod's temple (A.D. 70), Christ's return was not imminent. (Matt. 24:1; Mk. 13:1; Lk. 21:5, 6).
- Before His ascension, Christ prophesied certain signs to precede His return. These signs were not present in the early church and are not fully present right now. They are still future. Thus until all these signs are clearly and fully fulfilled, Christ's coming is not imminent. (Matt. 24-, Mk.13, Lk. 21).
- After His ascension, Christ prophesied that the apostle Paul would go to Rome and preach His gospel. Until Paul got to Rome, Christ could not come. Thus from His ascension to the time when Paul got to Rome (A.D. 61), Christ's return was not imminent. (Acts 23:11; 27:24). None of Paul’s epistles written before he got to Rome could possibly teach that Christ's return was imminent.-
- After His ascension, Christ prophesied that the church at Smyrna would pass through a great persecution in the future. He challenged them to suffer faithfully. Until the Smyrna church had been through this trial, Christ could not come. Thus from His ascension to the trial of the church at Smyrna, Christ's coming was not imminent. (Rev. 2:10).
- Christ in various parables connected His church and His coming with the end of the age. Until all the Biblical Prophecies leading up to the end of the age, and the prophecies concerning the end of the age have been fulfilled, Christ cannot come. Thus Christ's return cannot be imminent. (Matt. 13:24-30, 36-43, 47-50; 25:14-30)
Thats because Paul heard of a man that was caught up to the 3rd heaven. It wasn't Paul and what you wrote strengthens that it wasn't Paul. Sigh.
Randy
th1b.taylor
Member
Randy, Paul made certain, never to glorify himself and it is and always has been understood that Paul was speaking of himself in that verse.
The text in no way supports such a stance. Just the opposite =>I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself
If you know me I don't go by the norm just because its the norm. I check the scriptures. Mary had other children. Paul was not speaking about himself. If you are caught up to heaven don't you think you would know if you were in the spirit? Ahhh yes. So by reasoning and scripture I reject that Paul was speaking about himself. If I were to make assumptions it would be that Paul heard the story from someone he trusted. Someone of the faith and someone who was esteemed. Not a liar. Since no name was given we don't don't know who that person was that was caught up to the 3rd heaven. But another assumption would be it wasn't for a joy ride. That it was to bring back a message to the church. But again we don't know. Maybe if the apostles could ever envision that almost 2000 years later we are still discussing these things they might have added names or been more detailed in some areas.
peace,
Randy
2Co 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
And do you think Paul was given a thorn in the flesh for wanting to glory over someone he saw caught into heaven?
2Co 12:6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
Consider the following:
Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
REALLY?
th1b.taylor
Member
AMEN!
As I read Paul was given a thorn in the flesh to keep him from becoming conceited. The Lord watches over those who love Him.
John the baptist knew Jesus came from above and would baptize with the Holy Spirit before the 12. He knew Jesus would be the one who would take away the sin of the world. He called Jesus the lamb of God. Did John need to be caught up to heaven to be given that understanding as Jesus came to fulfill that which was already written of Him?
John the baptist quoted the scripture =>John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, "I am the voice of one calling in the wilderness, 'Make straight the way for the Lord.'"
Much of what Paul writes is foretold in scripture. The law, the prophets, and the psalms. Paul was given understanding in regard to what was written about Jesus. That doesn't state Paul was caught up to the 3rd heaven. Paul states it was another His letter.
Randy
Good morning Brother Randy, I'm pretty sure God could have revealed everything to Paul in any manner He desired, but He chose to reveal the gospel we will be judged by (Rom 2:16), and that was revealed by our risen Savior in His very presence.
Please allow me to give another example of that same manner of Revelation to the Apostle John in Rev 4:1. John knew and professed scripture, in Rev 1:19 he was to write of things he had seen, the things which are in this present time, and the things that will be. What occurred in Rev 4:1 that was different? "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." John was caught up into heaven and God's throne to see the things God had for our future. He saw those such as Jesus' angel of Rev 1:1, the one actually telling John all He saw, such an one so elegant in appearance that John actually bowed to him thinking he was Jesus in Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus. And: Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
I was speaking of John the baptist not the apostle John. The scripture does state John was caught up to heaven and so I believe that is so. I read it and understood. No such statement is made about the apostle Paul. Like John the baptist Paul didn't need to be taken up to heaven to be given understanding about what God had foretold would take place. John the baptist knew Jesus came from above and would speak the words as one from above. John the baptist knew Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit and that Jesus would take away the sin of the world. John the baptist called Jesus the lamb of God. All that before the 12 understood any of that. John was given understanding about the Christ. So was Paul who was already a expert in the Law. A Pharisee the son of a Pharisee. I don't believe Paul is speaking of himself when he stated he knew of one that was caught up to the 3rd heaven and that Paul could brag about a man like that but not himself. I don't know the one Paul is speaking of as he didn't name that man he knew the was caught up to the 3rd heaven.
Randy
OK, thanks for the reply.
civilwarbuff
Member
We don't know; other people were relating the story of John the Baptist; John was not telling his own story. By the time the gospels were written John was long dead so we cannot know for sure how he obtained his knowledge except it was revealed to him by God.
Paul is speaking of himself in the 3rd person; his reasoning seems to be if he revealed that God Himself invited him into heaven or gave him a direct revelation (one or the other) it would come across as boasting. But he does confirm God gave him a thorn to prevent the boasting and that he was telling the truth
2Co 12:5 On behalf of this man I will boast, but on my own behalf I will not boast, except of my weaknesses—
2Co 12:6 though if I should wish to boast, I would not be a fool, for I would be speaking the truth; but I refrain from it, so that no one may think more of me than he sees in me or hears from me.
2Co 12:7 So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited.
I don't agree with your premise or reasoning=>Paul is speaking of himself in the 3rd person
I do agree Paul learned from Jesus. I know by experience and the written word Jesus is capable via the Holy Spirit to communicate and give understanding. As I stated Paul was given a thorn to keep him from becoming conceited as thats what I read.
There was no need to take Paul to heaven for Paul to learn and gain wisdom.
Jesus in regard to the Holy Spirit=>He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.
peace
Randy
civilwarbuff
Member
OK , what is your reasoning for your disagreement? I posted scripture that I believe supports me.....
Why not do that with the other apostles also?.....Peter seemed to have a little tendecy to get a bit full of himself. If anyone needed/deserved a thorn certainly it was him?
Paul admits he does not know if it was spiritual(most likely IMO) or physical....
scripture for that please........
There's no way you read in that scripture and believe its Paul that was caught up to 3rd heaven if you didn't already have the bias that Paul was speaking of himself.
I tell you if you were caught up to the 3rd heaven you would know whether or not you were still in your body.
Paul=>And I know that this man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows--
Randy