Why I Don't Believe in Predestination

[Jay T]

SALVATION BY MANIPULATION

Manipulation Theology is based, on the belief that man has no choice in being saved or lost.
The power of choice, is not involved in the process.

In other words, 'predestination', carried to its logical conclusion means....

'God predestinates most people on the earth, to be lost....forces them to sin....does not allow them to repent....then tortures them throughout all eternity....as punishment....for the sins, that HE forces them to commit' !



From the Book: "The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination", by Calvinist theologian, Loraine Boettner.
(all quotations hereafter are from that book.....)

God's manipulation makes all things happen:

"God from all eternity did...ordain whatsoever comes to pass", pg. 13.

"He has foreordained whatsoever comes to pass", pg. 17.

"Nothing can come to pass apart from His sovereign will", pg. 30.

"Nothing can come to pass contrary to what He expressly decrees", pg. 14.

"God has an eternal plan in which predetermined every event that comes to pass", pg. 23.

"His decree extends to every event in human history", pg. 13.

God's manuipulation includes the smallest details of life.

"History in all its details, even the most minute, is but the unfolding of the eternal purposes of God", pg 25.

God manipulates everyone's thoughts, impulses, and feelings.

"Not only the works we do outwardly, but even the thoughts we think inwardly", pg. 15.

"God is the sovereign ruler who governs even the intimate thoughts and feelings and impulses of men", pg. 34.

"It is He that manuipulates the very thoughts and intents of the heart, pg. 31.

God manipulates all evil as well as all good...

"Plainly the fall of the perfect man, Adam, were in His plan", pg.24.

"Even the fall of Adam, and through him the fall of the race, was not by choice or accident, but was so ordained in the secret counsels of God", pg. 234.

"Even the sinful acts of men are included in His plan", pg. 24.
"That the sinful acts of men have their place and a nccessary place in His plan", pg. 252.

God's manipulation gives no opportunity of repentance !

"In matters of pertaining to his salvation, the unregenerate man is not at liberty to choose between good and evil", pg 62.

"God at the same time, and by the same means withholds from them the opportunity and power of believing and being saved", pg. 91.

QUESTION: "If all sinning is done by the deliberate foreordained manipulation of God, which cannot be resisited by the sinner......are they not free....from the responsiblity, and the penalty of committing those sins ?

ANSWER: The Calvinist answers....NO !

"By the decree of God, for the manisfestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestined to everlasting life, and most are foreordained, to everlasting torture in hell", pg. 84.

The manipulation of God tortures the non-elect forever !

"God creates most people, predestines them to be lost....forces them to committ sin.....does not permit them to repent.....then, tortures them throughout all eternity...for the sins....which HE forced them to commit".

Boettner (the author) tells us: "No injustice is done to the non-elect", pg. 113.

This book was published in 1932....by the Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company.


I will say right here.....I REJECT THIS (one) THEORY OF PREDESTINATION !!

The fiendish god of Calvinism clearly delights on torture.
After his helpless victims have screamed and agonized through a million years of torture, this god of theirs, happily appoints them another million years, and another, and another.
IT WILL NEVER END !

To recap this paper:
Boettner, the Calvinist theologian tells us that although the will of man in under the control of God down to the smallest detail of life, nevertheless the will of man remains totally free.
He also insists that although God forces the non-elect to commit sin, not permitting them to repent, then tortures them throughout all eternity as punishment, for the sins that HE forced them to commit, that there is no injustice to the non-elect ?!?



I personally believe in these Bible verses:

#1.) Acts 10:34 "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that [God is no respecter of persons]".

#2.) Titus 2:11 "For the [grace of God] that bringeth salvation [hath appeared to all men]".

 

[Heidi]

SALVATION BY MANIPULATION

Manipulation Theology is based, on the belief that man has no choice in being saved or lost.
The power of choice, is not involved in the process.

In other words, 'predestination', carried to its logical conclusion means....

'God predestinates most people on the earth, to be lost....forces them to sin....does not allow them to repent....then tortures them throughout all eternity....as punishment....for the sins, that HE forces them to commit' !



From the Book: "The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination", by Calvinist theologian, Loraine Boettner.
(all quotations hereafter are from that book.....)

God's manipulation makes all things happen:

"God from all eternity did...ordain whatsoever comes to pass", pg. 13.

"He has foreordained whatsoever comes to pass", pg. 17.

"Nothing can come to pass apart from His sovereign will", pg. 30.

"Nothing can come to pass contrary to what He expressly decrees", pg. 14.

"God has an eternal plan in which predetermined every event that comes to pass", pg. 23.

"His decree extends to every event in human history", pg. 13.

God's manuipulation includes the smallest details of life.

"History in all its details, even the most minute, is but the unfolding of the eternal purposes of God", pg 25.

God manipulates everyone's thoughts, impulses, and feelings.

"Not only the works we do outwardly, but even the thoughts we think inwardly", pg. 15.

"God is the sovereign ruler who governs even the intimate thoughts and feelings and impulses of men", pg. 34.

"It is He that manuipulates the very thoughts and intents of the heart, pg. 31.

God manipulates all evil as well as all good...

"Plainly the fall of the perfect man, Adam, were in His plan", pg.24.

"Even the fall of Adam, and through him the fall of the race, was not by choice or accident, but was so ordained in the secret counsels of God", pg. 234.

"Even the sinful acts of men are included in His plan", pg. 24.
"That the sinful acts of men have their place and a nccessary place in His plan", pg. 252.

God's manipulation gives no opportunity of repentance !

"In matters of pertaining to his salvation, the unregenerate man is not at liberty to choose between good and evil", pg 62.

"God at the same time, and by the same means withholds from them the opportunity and power of believing and being saved", pg. 91.

QUESTION: "If all sinning is done by the deliberate foreordained manipulation of God, which cannot be resisited by the sinner......are they not free....from the responsiblity, and the penalty of committing those sins ?

ANSWER: The Calvinist answers....NO !

"By the decree of God, for the manisfestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestined to everlasting life, and most are foreordained, to everlasting torture in hell", pg. 84.

The manipulation of God tortures the non-elect forever !

"God creates most people, predestines them to be lost....forces them to committ sin.....does not permit them to repent.....then, tortures them throughout all eternity...for the sins....which HE forced them to commit".

Boettner (the author) tells us: "No injustice is done to the non-elect", pg. 113.

This book was published in 1932....by the Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company.


I will say right here.....I REJECT THIS (one) THEORY OF PREDESTINATION !!

The fiendish god of Calvinism clearly delights on torture.
After his helpless victims have screamed and agonized through a million years of torture, this god of theirs, happily appoints them another million years, and another, and another.
IT WILL NEVER END !

To recap this paper:
Boettner, the Calvinist theologian tells us that although the will of man in under the control of God down to the smallest detail of life, nevertheless the will of man remains totally free.
He also insists that although God forces the non-elect to commit sin, not permitting them to repent, then tortures them throughout all eternity as punishment, for the sins that HE forced them to commit, that there is no injustice to the non-elect ?!?



I personally believe in these Bible verses:

#1.) Acts 10:34 "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that [God is no respecter of persons]".

#2.) Titus 2:11 "For the [grace of God] that bringeth salvation [hath appeared to all men]".

That's the biggest misrepresentation of predestination I have ever heard. It also disagrees with the bible.

What you are saying is that some people are simply born with more intelligence than others so they can choose God. Not according to Jesus. He said;

1) "I can do nothing without my Father,"
2) "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him",
3) "You did not choose me, I chose you," "
4) "Every plant that is not planted by my Father will be pulled up by its roots,"
5) "The secrets of the kingom of heaven have been revealed to you but not to them"
6) "No one knows the Son except the Father and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him"
7" I am not praying for the world but for those you have given me for they were yours."
8 "If you belonged to the world, the world would love you as its own. As it is, I have chosen[b] you out of the world and that is why the world hates you." [/b]

Paul says, "God's call is irrevocable."
"For who can resist his will?"
"God hardens whom he wants to harden and has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy."
"Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, not by works-but by him who calls so that God's plan of election might stand; he told her; 'the older will serve the younger''.
"It does not therefore depend on man's own desire or effort, but on God's mercy."
"A man is a slave to whatever master him."
"What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power knows, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy whom he prepared in advance for glory-..."

There are so many more scriptures that youi contradict they are way too numerous to list them all. By your reasoning, only wise and smart poeple whill choose God by their own effort which is not only not equitable, it's not scriptural.

But God's plan is that none of us knows who's called so we are all equal before God. It is the only equitable plan because it makes us all equal and accountable. Your belief gives man the credit for his belief. But God's plan gives God the credit for our belief.

"For it is by grace you have been saved through faith-and this not from yourselves-not by works so that no one can boast."

Our ability to know and understand God comes from the Holy Spirit, not our wonderful nature. Trying to understand and believe in God without the Holy Spirit is as impossible as trying to understand Turkish without an interpreter.

"For he chose us before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love, he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-..."

So your belief contracts way too much scripture to be true.

 

[mutzrein]

Go Heidi!!

Jay T - what is your interpretation of the two verses you quoted? By saying you believe in those two, it almost sounds as though there are some you don't believe.

 

[Heidi]

Go Heidi!!

Jay T - what is your interpretation of the two verses you quoted? By saying you believe in those two, it almost sounds as though there are some you don't believe.

You're right on with the bible Mutzrein.

 

[Jay T]

Go Heidi!!

Jay T - what is your interpretation of the two verses you quoted? By saying you believe in those two, it almost sounds as though there are some you don't believe.

Oh No....I believe in what Jesus said: Mattew 4:4 "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God".
At least 3 Times in the Bible God says that a person's name ...can be...taken out of...the Book of Life.

 

[bbas 64]

Go Heidi!!

Jay T - what is your interpretation of the two verses you quoted? By saying you believe in those two, it almost sounds as though there are some you don't believe.

Oh No....I believe in what Jesus said: Mattew 4:4 "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God".
At least 3 Times in the Bible God says that a person's name ...can be...taken out of...the Book of Life.

Good Day, Jay

When did it occur to God that he would have to remove some one?

What 3 scriptures, please.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[bbas 64]

Good Day, Jay

Kind of a funny OP, you say you disagree with the writter here you quote, but offer little in what your understanding of "predestination" is, nor have you defined the word. Having not done so I wonder where you start.

Any one can plainly see the author quotes much scripture in that work, but again you have not taken any of those into account. You say you disagree the question is what is the basis how is it germaine to the work which you quote out of context.

You post 2 scriptures, lets deal with the first.

Act 10:34 So Peter opened his mouth and said: "Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.

You seem to posit this is problematic for those who hold to the Doctrines of Grace, who is your source, what problems do you think this presents?

I shall get to the other, after this one.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[Drew]

I hope that I am correct in understanding that one of the issues under discussion here is the question as to how the elect are actually "picked" by God under a Calvinist view. If this is not of interest, then spare your time and read no further.

The following is a repost of some material I posted in another thread:

It is my understanding that some claim that God chooses an "elect" but that the way God chooses the members of the elect is in a manner such that He does not make this choice based on any characteristics of the person. If this is not what you believe, fine - this post may not be of interest to you. If you do believe that God's choice is neither arbitrary (essentially random) nor based on individual characteristics, then I submit the following for your consideration:

It does not appear that this a coherent position, because, unless God's choice is truly random, His choice must be based on some discriminating characteristic of the person He chooses (or does not choose).

There is a famous illustration of a hungry donkey presented with two buckets of oats. We imagine that the brain of the donkey is magically altered to render it incapable of identifying any distinguishing characteristics of the two buckets (although it does recognize the existence of 2 buckets). So, for example, the donkey can make no judgements like the following:

- Bucket A has more oats so I'll choose A
- The oats in bucket B look fresher, so I'll choose B
- etc.

If the donkey is not allowed (through this magical intervention) to make his choice based on characteristics that inhere in (belong to) the buckets, then the only option left for him is to choose randomly. Otherwise, he will starve.

For the situation of election, even God has no choice but to use discriminating properties to differentiate us one from another. You may say that I am imposing a human restriction on God. I don't think that I am. I think I am simply acknowledging the fact that God has created a universe where objects are differentiated from one another based on their inherent characteristics. If we think carefully about what makes Fred "Fred" and Joe "Joe" to an observer, we seem unavoidably drawn to conclude that it is only inherent characteritics that allow a third party observer to distinguish them: Fred is taller. Joe is smarter, Fred has more money, etc.

I submit that in order for God to choose to elect Fred (and not Joe), He has no option but to base that choice on something about Fred (or about Joe). Once you take away distinguishing characteristics. Fred and Joe seem absolutely identical to an external person, even God. So unless God "flips a coin", any selection He makes must be based on distinguishing characteristics.

 

[bbas 64]

I hope that I am correct in understanding that one of the issues under discussion here is the question as to how the elect are actually "picked" by God under a Calvinist view. If this is not of interest, then spare your time and read no further.

The following is a repost of some material I posted in another thread:

It is my understanding that some claim that God chooses an "elect" but that the way God chooses the members of the elect is in a manner such that He does not make this choice based on any characteristics of the person. If this is not what you believe, fine - this post may not be of interest to you. If you do believe that God's choice is neither arbitrary (essentially random) nor based on individual characteristics, then I submit the following for your consideration:

It does not appear that this a coherent position, because, unless God's choice is truly random, His choice must be based on some discriminating characteristic of the person He chooses (or does not choose).

There is a famous illustration of a hungry donkey presented with two buckets of oats. We imagine that the brain of the donkey is magically altered to render it incapable of identifying any distinguishing characteristics of the two buckets (although it does recognize the existence of 2 buckets). So, for example, the donkey can make no judgements like the following:

- Bucket A has more oats so I'll choose A
- The oats in bucket B look fresher, so I'll choose B
- etc.

If the donkey is not allowed (through this magical intervention) to make his choice based on characteristics that inhere in (belong to) the buckets, then the only option left for him is to choose randomly. Otherwise, he will starve.

For the situation of election, even God has no choice but to use discriminating properties to differentiate us one from another. You may say that I am imposing a human restriction on God. I don't think that I am. I think I am simply acknowledging the fact that God has created a universe where objects are differentiated from one another based on their inherent characteristics. If we think carefully about what makes Fred "Fred" and Joe "Joe" to an observer, we seem unavoidably drawn to conclude that it is only inherent characteritics that allow a third party observer to distinguish them: Fred is taller. Joe is smarter, Fred has more money, etc.

I submit that in order for God to choose to elect Fred (and not Joe), He has no option but to base that choice on something about Fred (or about Joe). Once you take away distinguishing characteristics. Fred and Joe seem absolutely identical to an external person, even God. So unless God "flips a coin", any selection He makes must be based on distinguishing characteristics.

Good Day, Drew

This all sounds really good and well thought out. It lacks a very important componet is it in consistant with Scripture?

The question here is valid. Why does God choose as he does?

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

God's predestination is based in accordance to His good pleasure or His will.

Seeing he is God and has a will that is in accordance to what he pleases, that works for me. For the praise and glory of His Grace where he has "made" us accepted in His Son. His blood provided the forgiveness according to His Grace that is rich and over flows toward us in wisdom. His good pleasure is purpsoed in Himself and is not codependant on anything or any one else.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[ArtGuy]

Me, I've never quite understood how Christians can claim that a loving God would declare, irrevocably, that some people are to be chosen for salvation, while others are to be chosen to burn in Hell. That's like a parent choosing some of his kids to receive love and care, while the rest get sent into the basement where they're locked in a cage and are fed gruel. "Oh, but the parent is loving and just, because his choice of which kid gets tormented is completely random!" Sorry, but no.

A loving God must necessarily offer all people an opportunity to achieve salvation through their own actions - by accepting Jesus as savior. If everyone does not have an equal chance to determine for himself whether he goes to heaven or not, then God ceases to be good and just, and becomes a wicked tyrant.

Pre-determination is something invented by arrogant Christians to justify looking down upon those who haven't yet been saved. No thank you.

 

[Drew]

God's predestination is based in accordance to His good pleasure or His will.l

Greeting bbas 64 (Bill):

Thanks for your charitiable response. My concern is that, if we analyze what it actually might mean for God to exercise his will or to act according to his good pleasure, the "conceptual" problem remains - if election is not based on personal attributes, it must be random. This is simply being true to the way the world is. What makes you "you" you? It is things like your height, your hair colour, your sense of humour, your knowledge, etc..... There is simply no basis for anyone, God included, to choose between individuals without necessarily taking account of personal characteristics.

I hope people don't think I am playing a trick here. Lets say that we agree that God chooses his elect "according to his will". We need to do the real work of analyzing what this could mean - we cannot leave the concept of "God's will" unresolved. It seems reasonable to assume that the content of God's will is essentially a reflection of His purposes and goals.

In respect to the matter of election in particular, let's say that we know that God chooses Fred and not Joe. Obviously this means that the election of Fred fulfills God's will (whatever it is) and the non-election of Joe also fulfills God's will. This is a position one must take if one believes in election based on God's will.

What if we brazenly suggest to God that he should really elect Joe and not elect Fred? God says no - this would not be his will. After all, his will is that Fred be elected and not Joe. We then ask God to explain. God will understandably reply that the election of Joe (and the non-election of Fred) would not be in accordance with His goals and purposes.
But how could this be, if not for the fact that there is something about Fred and something about Joe that results in this "difference of outcomes" between the options (1. elect Fred, do not elect Joe, 2. elect Joe, do not elect Fred)? If the choice of Fred for election is not based on characteristics that distinguish him from Joe, then the fulfillment of God's will cannot be based on such distinctions. The believer in predestination is in a pickle, because he has already claimed that the election of Fred is what God wants, and not the election of Joe.

It is true that we must look to the Scriptures for the truth. But when there are texts that suggest pre-destination (such as the Ephesians text) and texts which suggest free-will acceptance of the gift of salvation (such as texts which suggests God wants "all to come to repentance"), we can indeed use "rational argument" to help resolve the problem.

 

[Drew]

I need to state that I have re-thought the content of my recent post and wish to make a qualification. I might have been too hasty in suggesting a choice of electing Fred and not Joe has to be based on personal characteristics in order for that choice to be any different outcome than a choice of electing Joe and not Fred.

It could be the case that a choice of Fred and not Joe might be based on discriminators other than personal characteristics. Consider a chess analogy. I am the white player. I have 8 pawns, all of which are entirely identical - as individual pieces they have identical capabilty. However, I choose to move pawn 1 and not pawn 2. Why? Simply because, each of these 2 pawns stands in different spatial relation to all other pieces on the board. They are not inherently different, but they are indeed different in regard to their role in fulfilling my desires as the white player.

Perhaps, the believer in pre-destination might make such a claim in respect to the matter of election. I shall have to think about this.....

 

[ArtGuy]

Perhaps, the believer in pre-destination might make such a claim in respect to the matter of election. I shall have to think about this.....

I think that would be an entirely valid means of making a choice that was neither random nor based on personal characteristics. Then you just have to deal with the inherent injustice of saying, "Oh, I'm sorry, Pawn 2, but because you happen to be standing next to a bishop, I'm going to sentence you to burn in hell for eternity. Nothing personal, mind you."

 

[Heidi]

Go Heidi!!

Jay T - what is your interpretation of the two verses you quoted? By saying you believe in those two, it almost sounds as though there are some you don't believe.

Oh No....I believe in what Jesus said: Mattew 4:4 "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God".
At least 3 Times in the Bible God says that a person's name ...can be...taken out of...the Book of Life.

Then you will also believe the quotes of Christ above.

Jesus also said of is true sheep;

1) "No once can snatch them out of my hand,"
2)"For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect, if that were possible".
3)"In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritcance that can never perish, spoil or fade-kept in heave for you."
4) "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lod.'

That last passage says it beautifully. So since scripture never lies, then put them together and what do you get? You get that Christ's true sheep will always repent and do what our Lord asks us because the one who is in us greater than the one who is in the world. Therefore, those who "fall away" cannot be Christ's true sheep because Jesus said that his true sheep listen to his voice. And that's why no one can snatch Christ's true sheep (elect) out of his hand.

Once again, you cannot take bits and pieces out of scripture and just believe those phrases. You have to take all of scripture and reconcile it so that it doesn't contradict itself.

 

[gingercat]

Me, I've never quite understood how Christians can claim that a loving God would declare, irrevocably, that some people are to be chosen for salvation, while others are to be chosen to burn in Hell. That's like a parent choosing some of his kids to receive love and care, while the rest get sent into the basement where they're locked in a cage and are fed gruel. "Oh, but the parent is loving and just, because his choice of which kid gets tormented is completely random!" Sorry, but no.

A loving God must necessarily offer all people an opportunity to achieve salvation through their own actions - by accepting Jesus as savior. If everyone does not have an equal chance to determine for himself whether he goes to heaven or not, then God ceases to be good and just, and becomes a wicked tyrant.

Pre-determination is something invented by arrogant Christians to justify looking down upon those who haven't yet been saved. No thank you.

Amen Art guy :angel: :angel: :angel:

 

[Heidi]

Me, I've never quite understood how Christians can claim that a loving God would declare, irrevocably, that some people are to be chosen for salvation, while others are to be chosen to burn in Hell. That's like a parent choosing some of his kids to receive love and care, while the rest get sent into the basement where they're locked in a cage and are fed gruel. "Oh, but the parent is loving and just, because his choice of which kid gets tormented is completely random!" Sorry, but no.

A loving God must necessarily offer all people an opportunity to achieve salvation through their own actions - by accepting Jesus as savior. If everyone does not have an equal chance to determine for himself whether he goes to heaven or not, then God ceases to be good and just, and becomes a wicked tyrant.

Pre-determination is something invented by arrogant Christians to justify looking down upon those who haven't yet been saved. No thank you.

Actually, it's the exact opposite. It is the only equitable system because none of us knows if we are called so salvation is open to all.

Those who believe in free will, however, are saying that only those born with the intelligence to be able to believe in God can come to God and the rest are dumber than the "good guys" and just plain out of luck. That also contradcits 1 Corinthians 2:14 where Pauls says the man without the Spirit cannot understand the things of God. It also again gives man the credit for his "choice" to come to God instead of giving God the credit for his sovereignty. That is called pride which is from the devil, and therefore, a false teaching.

 

[bbas 64]

Me, I've never quite understood how Christians can claim that a loving God would declare, irrevocably, that some people are to be chosen for salvation, while others are to be chosen to burn in Hell. That's like a parent choosing some of his kids to receive love and care, while the rest get sent into the basement where they're locked in a cage and are fed gruel. "Oh, but the parent is loving and just, because his choice of which kid gets tormented is completely random!" Sorry, but no.

A loving God must necessarily offer all people an opportunity to achieve salvation through their own actions - by accepting Jesus as savior. If everyone does not have an equal chance to determine for himself whether he goes to heaven or not, then God ceases to be good and just, and becomes a wicked tyrant.

Pre-determination is something invented by arrogant Christians to justify looking down upon those who haven't yet been saved. No thank you.

Good Day, Art

Please define the Greek word proorizō, then we shall see if it is invented.

I will leave you man cetered view of God alone... you can keep it

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[Drew]

Me, I've never quite understood how Christians can claim that a loving God would declare, irrevocably, that some people are to be chosen for salvation, while others are to be chosen to burn in Hell. That's like a parent choosing some of his kids to receive love and care, while the rest get sent into the basement where they're locked in a cage and are fed gruel. "Oh, but the parent is loving and just, because his choice of which kid gets tormented is completely random!" Sorry, but no.

A loving God must necessarily offer all people an opportunity to achieve salvation through their own actions - by accepting Jesus as savior. If everyone does not have an equal chance to determine for himself whether he goes to heaven or not, then God ceases to be good and just, and becomes a wicked tyrant.

Pre-determination is something invented by arrogant Christians to justify looking down upon those who haven't yet been saved. No thank you.

Actually, it's the exact opposite. It is the only equitable system because none of us knows if we are called so salvation is open to all.

This does not seem correct. The inequity that Artguy (and I for that matter) see in predestination is the notion that some people are essentially "hard-wired" for eternal punishment (if one believes in an eternal hell, but that is another debate), with no degree of freedom to choose another path. Such persons can exercize no control over their ultimate fate. Therein lies the injustice.

Now the fact that we do not know who is destined for heaven and who is destined for hell does not solve the problem. It is still unjust for Fred to be born pre-destined to hell whether he or anyone else knows this fact. It is a simple direct contradiction to say salvation is open to all and also embrace the idea that some are pre-destined to hell.

 

[Heidi]

Me, I've never quite understood how Christians can claim that a loving God would declare, irrevocably, that some people are to be chosen for salvation, while others are to be chosen to burn in Hell. That's like a parent choosing some of his kids to receive love and care, while the rest get sent into the basement where they're locked in a cage and are fed gruel. "Oh, but the parent is loving and just, because his choice of which kid gets tormented is completely random!" Sorry, but no.

A loving God must necessarily offer all people an opportunity to achieve salvation through their own actions - by accepting Jesus as savior. If everyone does not have an equal chance to determine for himself whether he goes to heaven or not, then God ceases to be good and just, and becomes a wicked tyrant.

Pre-determination is something invented by arrogant Christians to justify looking down upon those who haven't yet been saved. No thank you.

Actually, it's the exact opposite. It is the only equitable system because none of us knows if we are called so salvation is open to all.

This does not seem correct. The inequity that Artguy (and I for that matter) see in predestination is the notion that some people are essentially "hard-wired" for eternal punishment (if one believes in an eternal hell, but that is another debate), with no degree of freedom to choose another path. Such persons can exercize no control over their ultimate fate. Therein lies the injustice.

Now the fact that we do not know who is destined for heaven and who is destined for hell does not solve the problem. It is still unjust for Fred to be born pre-destined to hell whether he or anyone else knows this fact. It is a simple direct contradiction to say salvation is open to all and also embrace the idea that some are pre-destined to hell.

How do you know who's called? How does an atheist know he's not called? When I was an atheist, I didn't know that I was called. So salvation is open to all because we don't know if we are called or not. Those who want heaven can have it and those who don't want it, won't have it. So everyone is getting his wish. It's that simple.

I've witnessed to atheists for several years and they don't want God. They don't care if they are being deceived by the devil because they don't believe in the devil. They have heard the truth and are perfectly willing to risk hell for their beliefs. They can no more make a decision to believe in God than they can decide to understand Turkish without an interpreter. All we can do is to respond out of the desires in our hearts.

Jesus said; "The secrets of the kingdom of heaven have been give to you but not to them." Only God knows the hearts of men.

Also, Romans 9:11 says; "Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad-in order that God's purpose in election might stand; not by works but by him who calls-she was told; 'The older will serve the younger.' Just as it is written; Jacob I loved, Easu I hated."

The bible makes it clear that God does the choosing. And since Esau could never receive the Holy Spirit, then he could never believe in God. But he didn't care. Then in verse 19, Paul addresses your question:

"One of you will say to me: 'Then why does God still blame us?" Paul's answer is; "Who are you to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to who formed it; 'why did you make me like this?'" Then read verses 22-24 which explains why God does the choosing and hardens whom he wants and has mercy on whom he wants.

 

[ArtGuy]

Good Day, Art

Please define the Greek word proorizō, then we shall see if it is invented.

I will leave you man cetered view of God alone... you can keep it

I think that one isolated verse that may or may not imply predestination doesn't stand up well to the many, many verses that reference men freely choosing whether or not to follow God. In light of this apparent contradiction, it's worthwhile to ask which seems more befitting of an omnibenevolent deity - allowing people to choose their fate, or arbitrarily condemning billions of people to eternal torture with no chance for them to alter their destinies.

As such, I will leave you your wicked, hate-filled, torture-happy God. I'll stick with a God who doesn't enjoy running a rigged game. But as I said, if it makes you feel better to suppose that God creates hordes of people strictly so that he can torture them for all time, knock yourself out.