Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

Will All Christian's Be Ready?

2024 Website Hosting Fees

Total amount
$905.00
Goal
$1,038.00
Not long ago, I was discussing my view of the rapture with another fellow believer. I shared with him that I did not believe that all Christians would be ready when the Son of man appears. He politely said that he thought I was going against scripture. Then he cited, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 as his proof text. His understanding of that passage leads him to believe that Paul was saying that all living born again Christians (we which are alive and remain) will be raptured, but is that really what the apostle Paul meant? I believe he is taking that passage out of context. So let’s take a closer look at the text.
.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words."
.
From what I gather from the passage above, Paul is telling the Thessalonians not to be sorrowful about those who are asleep (their dead loved ones). He’s teaching them that God will bring the dead with Christ when He comes. Then he goes on to tell them that the dead in Christ will rise first, then, we which are alive and remain will be caught up together with them (the dead) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord. In other words, Paul was merely comforting them about meeting their loved ones who had already passed away. Although there is some valuable information about the rapture of the living in this text, Paul’s emphasis was not on the living, but rather, the dead; and that those who were still alive and remained at that time would meet them again in the clouds. Therefore, we should comfort those believers who have lost loved ones with these words.
.
Many have pulled verses 16 and 17 out of context for the purpose of discussing the rapture. These two verses are probably the most popular rapture scriptures, and I have often applied them myself. They contain some valuable information, no doubt, but we must not lose sight of Paul’s intent when he said it. They were never meant to identify which living believers would be raptured, or to say that all believers will be raptured. He was clearly comforting the survivors of the dead here.
.
Many also teach that the apostle Paul was the first to reveal the mysterious rapture, but that is simply not true. The truth is that Paul was the one who first revealed this mystery to the Gentile believers. Christ had already taught this truth to His disciples years earlier (John 14:2-3, Matt. 24:30-31), before Paul was even converted to Christianity. So let’s take a look at what Christ said about this, which actually corresponds with what Paul said later in the passage above. Let’s compare them both below, beginning with Paul’s statement, followed by Christ’s.
.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
.
Matthew 24:30-31"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
.
There’s no doubt the two passages above are describing the very same event, though, there are both similarities and differences within them. I’ll discuss the similarities first, followed by the differences. First, notice that in both passages Christ or the Son of man is descending from heaven or coming in the clouds of heaven. Notice that both mention a gathering or meeting in the clouds. And notice, also, that both gatherings are preceded by the blast of a trumpet. And finally, notice that neither one mentions a physical returning to the earth at that time. Now let’s press on to the differences.
.
Considering the context of both passages, there’s good reason for some differences as well. First, we should take into consideration that Paul was describing both, the resurrection of the dead and the rapture of the living, as he was comforting those whose loved ones had already passed away. Christ, on the other hand, did not even mention the dead, because He was answering His disciple’s question about the sign of His coming, for those who will be alive at that time, and also the sign of the end of the age (Matt. 24:3). The dead will not need a sign, so there was no reason for Christ to mention the dead in His answer to their question. And let’s not forget the promise Christ made to His disciple’s below.
.
John 14:2-3"In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."
.
Christ was clearly the first to teach His Jewish disciple’s about the rapture. In fact, He also told them that He, Himself was the resurrection and the life. But the real question is: Did He tell them that He would rapture the entire Church, as many pastor’s and teachers claim today? And the unpopular, but truthful answer is: No, He did not say that or even anything similar. He told them that He would send the angels to gather His elect (chosen). He further illustrated this by telling them parables, saying that His coming will be like it was in the days of Noah. Then He added that two will be in the field, one shall be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill, one shall be taken and the other left. He told them about the faithful servant and the unfaithful servant, who thought His Lord had delayed His coming. Next He told them about the parable of ten virgins. Five were wise and five were foolish. And finally, He told them the parable of talents, when He would return to reward His faithful servants.
.
He also told them a very telling parable on another occasion. In this parable, He said that those who are watching when He comes will be blessed, and that He, Himself, will be dressed to serve, and He will have them sit down and serve them meat at the wedding supper. He said that those who are ready will rule over His household and be given meat in due season. However, in this same parable, He also mentioned the believers that will be caught unaware of His coming, and that they will be left with the unbelievers. Some of those who are not ready will receive a little punishment, and some will receive a severe punishment. Please don’t take my word for it. Read it for yourself (Luke 12:35-48), and pay close attention to verses 46, 47 and 48. In my humble opinion, Christ has made it abundantly clear that the entire Church will not be ready when He appears, regardless of what others may teach or believe.
 
Last edited:
.
Welcome to our Christian fellowship Brother rollinTHUNDER. I'll attempt to address the issue as to whether all believers are caught up to be with Jesus at the same time, and are all ready for His appearance.

Since there is last trump, can there be preceding trumps? is Jesus limited to only one appearance for His own?
1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order . .

Each rank’s judgment, separated as we see the Church in Revelation Chapters Two and Three,
really begins at the house of God (1 Pet 4:17).

The resurrection of each order will remain constant with 1 Thes 4:16-17, The dead first and those which remain alive, and those ready at our Lord’s first coming in the air for them have things in common.
E.g.. the dead in Christ remained faithful unto death, whereas them remaining alive until being caught up faithfully kept the word of God.
Blessings in Christ Jesus: be ready. :wave2
 
rollinTHUNDER, I read your post...it didn't seem very convincing. Sorry.
In Thes Paul said: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,.
I read that and didn't see it say...Then some of us which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds.
The verse in simple language includes all.

The two in the field....Sounds like one was saved while the other wasn't.
 
If you put 1Corinthians 15:51-57 and 1Thessalonians 4:13-18 together it gives us a clear picture of the events that happen when Christ returns. John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. These two verses say all meaning everyone who are in their grave will hear the voice of Jesus calling them to rise up, both that have done good and have done evil as their is only one resurrection and gathering of all the saints of God.

This occurs on the last day when Christ returns, John 6:40, as those who have done good are gathered with those who are still alive and in Christ at His second coming as the angel will gathers all of us together, Matthew 24:31, and all that are Christ's will be changed in a twinkling of an eye as we are given our new glorified bodies as we yet know not what we will look like, but will be like Christ in all His glory as we will then be with the Lord forever. We have to be given new glorified bodies first as we could not stand in His presence before being changed first. It's like that of Moses in Exodus 33:18-23 that he could not see Gods full glory passing by him as Moses had to hide in the rocks as God said no one can see His face and live.

1Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
 
.
Welcome to our Christian fellowship Brother rollinTHUNDER. I'll attempt to address the issue as to whether all believers are caught up to be with Jesus at the same time, and are all ready for His appearance.

Since there is last trump, can there be preceding trumps? is Jesus limited to only one appearance for His own?
1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order . .

Each rank’s judgment, separated as we see the Church in Revelation Chapters Two and Three,
really begins at the house of God (1 Pet 4:17).

The resurrection of each order will remain constant with 1 Thes 4:16-17, The dead first and those which remain alive, and those ready at our Lord’s first coming in the air for them have things in common.
E.g.. the dead in Christ remained faithful unto death, whereas them remaining alive until being caught up faithfully kept the word of God.
Blessings in Christ Jesus: be ready. :wave2
Thanks brother, Eugene. It's great to join y'all!

I agree, the judgment will begin with the house of God, then the nations (sheep & goats) when He physically returns to the earth later.
 
rollinTHUNDER, I read your post...it didn't seem very convincing. Sorry.
In Thes Paul said: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,.
I read that and didn't see it say...Then some of us which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds.
The verse in simple language includes all.

The two in the field....Sounds like one was saved while the other wasn't.
No need to be sorry, my friend. I can only share what I believe about this profound mystery. As that old saying goes, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink." To each his own, no problem.
 
If you put 1Corinthians 15:51-57 and 1Thessalonians 4:13-18 together it gives us a clear picture of the events that happen when Christ returns. John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. These two verses say all meaning everyone who are in their grave will hear the voice of Jesus calling them to rise up, both that have done good and have done evil as their is only one resurrection and gathering of all the saints of God.

This occurs on the last day when Christ returns, John 6:40, as those who have done good are gathered with those who are still alive and in Christ at His second coming as the angel will gathers all of us together, Matthew 24:31, and all that are Christ's will be changed in a twinkling of an eye as we are given our new glorified bodies as we yet know not what we will look like, but will be like Christ in all His glory as we will then be with the Lord forever. We have to be given new glorified bodies first as we could not stand in His presence before being changed first. It's like that of Moses in Exodus 33:18-23 that he could not see Gods full glory passing by him as Moses had to hide in the rocks as God said no one can see His face and live.

1Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
I agree, the transformation or change must occur first. However, this does little to show who will be ready. Those who are ready will be (taken) kept from the hour of trial or temptation (Rev. 3:10), but the lukewarm will be spit out (left) to enter the hour (Rev. 3:15-17). Many will be overcome (martyred) by the beast (Rev. 13:7-8, 14:13, 6:9-11, 20:4). And there will also be survivors (sheep) who will remain until the second coming without taking the mark of the beast. They will re-populate the earth in the millennium and be ruled over by Christ and His returning saints. So it's clear, at least to me, that not everyone will be ready.
 
Those who are ready will be (taken) kept from the hour of trial or temptation (Rev. 3:10)
The following scriptures are not speaking of the different raptures of the Church; they have been with Jesus approximately 1000 years prior to this.
1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1 Cor 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Even these next verses which many attempt to quote hoping to show the church being raptured is not about the Church at all; it concerns the unrighteous being taken away for future judgment. The taking away is the bad part here; there is no good outcome for them just as those taken away in the flood. The great white judgment awaits them.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

There is also another scripture many quote to denounce the Church being caught up, and that is Mat 24:13. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. This is being physically kept alive to enter the millennial reign of Christ. We are not saved by enduring unto the end, but by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Brother rollinTHUNDER, you mentioned Rev 3:10 as pertaining to a part of the Church (Philadelphia) kept from the great temptation to come upon all the earth. These are those I spoke of that faithfully keep the word of God, and they are those caught up alive to Christ.
The other ones I wrote of are those of Rev 2:10 (Smyrna) who remain faithful unto death representing them that Philadelphia is caught up together with to meet Jesus in the air told us in 1 Thes 4:16-17.

Thanks for your thoughts posted here in Jesus' name. :thumbsup
 
If you put 1Corinthians 15:51-57 and 1Thessalonians 4:13-18 together it gives us a clear picture of the events that happen when Christ returns. John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. These two verses say all meaning everyone who are in their grave will hear the voice of Jesus calling them to rise up, both that have done good and have done evil as their is only one resurrection and gathering of all the saints of God.

This occurs on the last day when Christ returns, John 6:40, as those who have done good are gathered with those who are still alive and in Christ at His second coming as the angel will gathers all of us together, Matthew 24:31, and all that are Christ's will be changed in a twinkling of an eye as we are given our new glorified bodies as we yet know not what we will look like, but will be like Christ in all His glory as we will then be with the Lord forever. We have to be given new glorified bodies first as we could not stand in His presence before being changed first. It's like that of Moses in Exodus 33:18-23 that he could not see Gods full glory passing by him as Moses had to hide in the rocks as God said no one can see His face and live.

1Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
For is Glory I have a question for you.
in John 6:40 wher it mention "the last day"

is that considered the last day of the church or last day of Gentiles;
 
For is Glory I have a question for you.
in John 6:40 wher it mention "the last day"

is that considered the last day of the church or last day of Gentiles;

It is the last day for all who believe by faith that Jesus is the Son of God, both living and those who are asleep in the grave that will be resurrected to life eternal with the Father, Galatians 3:26-29. The last day is the day of Christ return when he makes an end to all abominations casting them into the lake of fire as we who are Christ's will be with Him forever in the new Jerusalem

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? 43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
 
I agree, the transformation or change must occur first. However, this does little to show who will be ready. Those who are ready will be (taken) kept from the hour of trial or temptation (Rev. 3:10), but the lukewarm will be spit out (left) to enter the hour (Rev. 3:15-17). Many will be overcome (martyred) by the beast (Rev. 13:7-8, 14:13, 6:9-11, 20:4). And there will also be survivors (sheep) who will remain until the second coming without taking the mark of the beast. They will re-populate the earth in the millennium and be ruled over by Christ and His returning saints. So it's clear, at least to me, that not everyone will be ready.

No where in scripture that I know of says anything about repopulating the earth during a millennium reign. Those that teach this use, Zech. 8:1-5, Isa. 65:20-23, Ezek. 47:22, Rev. 20:7-9, but none of these scriptures support their theory.

All who are of faith throughout the generations that believe in Christ and through the Spiritual rebirth (regeneration), John 3:3-6, by that of Romans 10:9,10 are the servants of God and those, both small and great who fear (respect) Him have already prepared themselves to be gathered to Christ in His second coming. After Christ returns the door of salvation is closed forever as there are no second chances, Rev 19:5-8.

What we read about that must be fulfilled first in Rev 6:11 is that of all of those saints of God that will also be beheaded/killed for their witness and testimony of Christ as they refuse to take the mark of the beast. They will join all those before them that are asleep in the grave who wait until the coming of the Lord on the last day, John 6:40. The last day comes as we read in Rev Chapter 19 that the marriage supper of the Lamb will have come as first Jesus comes back with His army of angels and destroys the beast and fasle prophet casting them into the lake of fire and then sends an angel to bind Satan for a 1000 years so he can no longer deceive the nations.

During this time of Satan being bound for 1000 years comes the fulfillment of Rev 6:11 as all the saints that lay asleep in the grave will be part of the first resurrection as they are made alive once again to join those who are still alive at Christ coming and all of us will be changed in a twinkling of an eye and given new glorified bodies to be with the Lord forever, 1Corinthians 15:51-58; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18. We will not be hurt by the second death, being that of those who have died spiritually and physically throughout the ages including all of those in the last day that become Satan's army after he is released for a time to gather those from every nation that have rejected Christ to battle the saints of God as they surround the camp of saints, but God destroys them with fire from heaven sending them to their grave as then Satan is cast into the lake of fire followed by all who will stand in Gods Great White Throne judgment and are not found written in the Book of Life and then cast into the lake of fire and remembered no more.
 
Thanks brother, Eugene. It's great to join y'all!

I agree, the judgment will begin with the house of God, then the nations (sheep & goats) when He physically returns to the earth later.

Yes, agreed.
And a critical point among many such likewise points when discussing end time.
 
What we read about that must be fulfilled first in Rev 6:11 is that of all of those saints of God that will also be beheaded/killed for their witness and testimony of Christ as they refuse to take the mark of the beast. They will join all those before them that are asleep in the grave who wait until the coming of the Lord on the last day, John 6:40.

I disagree. Those who are martyred or have died before the Son of man appears (rapture), will be among the dead in Christ who will rise first. But the martyrs we see in Rev. 6 are waiting for the rest of the martyrs to be killed as they were, and only then will God avenge their blood (wrath - Rev. 6:12-17). Big difference.
 
I disagree. Those who are martyred or have died before the Son of man appears (rapture), will be among the dead in Christ who will rise first. But the martyrs we see in Rev. 6 are waiting for the rest of the martyrs to be killed as they were, and only then will God avenge their blood (wrath - Rev. 6:12-17). Big difference.

Our difference ls that I do not believe in a pretrib rapture, but that all, being those asleep in the grave who are Christ's will be raised first to be gathered with those who are still alive at His coming and will be caught up to Christ on the last day, John 6:40.

Rev 6:9-11; Rev 20:4 were only visions John was being shown and not something that was literal as John 3:13 says no one other than Christ has ever ascended up to heaven. The only thing that goes back to God when this physical body dies is the very spirit/breath that God breathed in us, Genesis 22:7; Ecc 12:7. The soul which makes up the conscious part of ones being is that of thought, action and emotion. Without the spirit/breath from God our soul would not be alive as spirit and soul are connected. When we physically die our soul also dies as the breath goes back to God who gave it.
 
Our difference ls that I do not believe in a pretrib rapture, but that all, being those asleep in the grave who are Christ's will be raised first to be gathered with those who are still alive at His coming and will be caught up to Christ on the last day, John 6:40.
I also do not believe in a pre-trib rapture, but I am a pre-millennialist, as I believe the resurrection/rapture will occur before the millennial reign. It appears that you and Eugene are post-millennialists. This should make for some interesting discussions. By the way, I would classify my view of the timing of the rapture as post-trib/pre-wrath.
 
I also do not believe in a pre-trib rapture, but I am a pre-millennialist, as I believe the resurrection/rapture will occur before the millennial reign. It appears that you and Eugene are post-millennialists. This should make for some interesting discussions. By the way, I would classify my view of the timing of the rapture as post-trib/pre-wrath.

It is a good discussion if it doesn't become a battlefield. When we see other points of view and then compare that with scripture then we will learn to discern truth from error, but probably not in here as I think we might be getting off topic. There are many threads on this subject in the End Time forums and if you would like, maybe you could start one there if you want to discuss this further as I have a lot of information on this I would like to share with you. :)
 
The following scriptures are not speaking of the different raptures of the Church; they have been with Jesus approximately 1000 years prior to this.
1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1 Cor 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
It appears you believe in a post-millennial resurrection/rapture, but I'm in the pre-millennial camp. I have written about the two resurrections, so I will post a new thread about it soon.
 
It is a good discussion if it doesn't become a battlefield. When we see other points of view and then compare that with scripture then we will learn to discern truth from error, but probably not in here as I think we might be getting off topic. There are many threads on this subject in the End Time forums and if you would like, maybe you could start one there if you want to discuss this further as I have a lot of information on this I would like to share with you. :)
Okay, sounds good. I'll post a new thread soon. Not too soon, though. I don't want to bite off more than I can chew -lol. So maybe within a few days or so, Lord willing. :)
 
Even these next verses which many attempt to quote hoping to show the church being raptured is not about the Church at all; it concerns the unrighteous being taken away for future judgment. The taking away is the bad part here; there is no good outcome for them just as those taken away in the flood. The great white judgment awaits them.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

There is also another scripture many quote to denounce the Church being caught up, and that is Mat 24:13. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. This is being physically kept alive to enter the millennial reign of Christ. We are not saved by enduring unto the end, but by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Brother rollinTHUNDER, you mentioned Rev 3:10 as pertaining to a part of the Church (Philadelphia) kept from the great temptation to come upon all the earth. These are those I spoke of that faithfully keep the word of God, and they are those caught up alive to Christ.
The other ones I wrote of are those of Rev 2:10 (Smyrna) who remain faithful unto death representing them that Philadelphia is caught up together with to meet Jesus in the air told us in 1 Thes 4:16-17.

Thanks for your thoughts posted here in Jesus' name. :thumbsup
Now you're getting into my comfort zone.:) I have actually written a book recently that deals with Matt. 24 & 25. There's a page on my website that may interest you. I'll copy and paste it below:
--------------------------
About my Book:
Two mysteries are solved in this book, one in the Old Testament, and one in the New Testament. The prophet Daniel was told to, “shut up the words and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.” Many scholars believe the increase of knowledge is referring to the advancing of modern technology at the time of the end. Well, there’s no denying that technology has increased tremendously, especially in the 21st century. It’s also true that technology will play a large role at the time of the end. However, Daniel’s prophecy has absolutely nothing to do with modern technology, though it does relate to the time of the end. Although these two mysteries were separated by hundreds of years, they are very much related. And connecting them together has led to astonishing new revelations that provide more details about the resurrection/rapture and much more.
.
No doubt, the rapture has become a very controversial subject among Christians, and some don’t even believe it will happen. The apostle Paul called it a profound mystery. Christ’s disciples asked Him for the sign of His coming and the end of the age (Matt. 24:3). Yet many scholars today, don’t believe that Matthew 24 has anything to do with the rapture, but only the second coming instead. Many other scholars believe it relates to both, the rapture and the second coming. But what if both of those beliefs are incorrect? Suppose the sign of the Son of man in Matthew 24, when Christ sends His angels to gather His elect is only the rapture, and not His physical second coming to the earth. That would change everything, right? But wait, there’s more, a lot more!
.
The sign of the Son of man is only half of the problem. The truth is that Matthew 24 is only half of Christ’s answer to His disciples question concerning the sign of His coming and the end of the age. In fact, the conclusion of His answer doesn’t come until the end of Matthew chapter 25, which is where His physical second coming to earth actually comes into view. You can easily verify this if you have a red letter edition Bible, but if not; Matthew 26:1 explicitly states that He had finished answering these things. You see, the trouble is that most scholars have concluded their study at the end of Matthew 24, because they don’t want to get tangled up in Jesus’ parables. So they simply ignore the second half of His answer to His disciples question, and this has been happening for almost 2000 years now. No wonder the rapture has become so controversial and confusing! This is like throwing the baby out with the bath-water, because most of the clues He gave us are hidden in these parables. But when the parables are included, then we can begin to see the true picture. So let’s do a quick overview of these parables.
.
First we see the sign of the Son of man appear in heaven. He is coming in the clouds, and then He sends His angels with a great sound of a trumpet to gather His elect. The first parable He gave us is the parable of the fig tree, so that we may know which generation will see His coming; but then He said that we won’t know when He is coming. So He warned that we must be ready, because His coming will be like it was in the days of Noah. And from this point it starts to get very interesting, as He added something new into the equation. “Then two will be in the field, one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill, one will be taken and the other left.” And then He commanded us to watch, for we do not know what hour our Lord will come. Chapter 24 ends with a parable about His faithful and unfaithful servants. Remember, this is only a brief thumb-nail overview.
.
Modern translators have divided up God’s Word into chapters and numbered the verses of scripture in order to make the Bible easier to study. But we should be careful and not lose sight of the fact that Christ was not yet finished answering His disciples question about the sign of His coming and the end of the age. His answer continued all the way through chapter 25 with two more lengthy parables. But before I discuss chapter 25, though, please allow me to briefly summarize the end of chapter 24, so we don’t lose track of what’s happening here.
.
At the end of chapter 24 it appeared that only half of His servants would be ready when the Son of man appears. One will be taken, the other left…a faithful servant, and an unfaithful servant. Now we continue reading the rest of His answer in chapter 25, as we come to the parable of ten virgins. Five of them were wise and five were foolish, which also seems to confirm that only half of His servants will be ready. Finally, He tells them the longest parable, the parable of talents, where He returns to reward His faithful servants. All of these parables seem to relate to the rapture only, not His physical second coming to earth. The second coming doesn’t even come into view until the end of this final parable in chapter 25, which an overwhelming majority of Bible scholars have completely neglected. Continued...
 
Back
Top