Discussion in 'End Times' started by new covenant preacher, Sep 12, 2017.
Argument about eschatology. ..
If ye love on an another ,by this shall the world know me...
WE are discussing end times. SO that suggests faith in Jesus and the NT scriptures. Which would suggest we are Christians(smile)
Uhm ,missed the point. Not even really into 3rd page and already posts deleted.
Ironic talking about the return and not treating each other better since the lost need Jesus.
What others do shouldn't keep one from Jesus. IF one truly loves Jesus and believes in Him they will go to Him. in other words a "sincere" faith in Jesus. No excuses will be accepted by the Lord from those who don't come to Him.
In fact the Lord delt with excuses in the NT and he rejected them all.
So sin all you want,live life as a sinner and don't worry about that you ,and only you.are called to be a witness.it's not in the bible after all
Love one another ,a command given by jesus.nah it's not important, but winning arguments is.
Just noting the irony of this tread and concern over the return and egos.carry on.
The seven trumpets are all about Gods wrath being poured out upon all nations at the end of days and has everything to do with Gods Salvation as many during this time will repent and turn back to God as they will finally have ears to hear the gospel being preached to them by all those who are still alive at this time and have Gods anointing to preach the Gospel. There are no separate trumpets for the saints and sinners as there are only seven that are sounded by the angels as God sends each one out as the soundings brings in all of Gods wrath upon those who refuse to repent and turn back to Him. God said that He would that none should perish, 2Peter 3:9, even though God's longsuffering and patience will come to an end as everyone will have an opportunity to repent as the Gospels will have been preached to everyone, but it is only those who will accept Gods free gift of grace, Ephesians 2:8, by faith will be saved. All Christians including those who at this time of the end have finally accepted Jesus will have eternal life with the Father.
There are three woes in Revelations as each one is worse than the other. The first one starts with the opening of the seventh seal in Rev 8:1 through Rev 9:12 that include the first five trumpets. The second woe starts in Rev 9:13 with the sixth trumpet and ends in Rev 11:14. The third woe starts with the seventh trumpet in Rev 11:15 ending in Rev 20:15.
It's during the sounding of the seventh trumpet as being the last trumpet mentioned in 1Corinthians 15:52 and 1Thess 4:16 that during this last trumpet mystery Babylon being the mother of harlots will be revealed as the the son of perdition will be exposed, 2Thess 2:3, who is the false prophet as he forces all to bow down to him and take the mark of the beast or face persecution even to death as many saints of God at this time will die a martyr's death for their witness and testimony of Christ and many who are weak in faith will fall away from Christ as they accept this mark as they fear for their own lives as this is the falling away the scriptures speak of in 2Thessalonians 2:1-3 and Hebrews 6:4-6.
It is not until mystery Babylon the great is exposed and destroyed that Christ returns in the air. We, alive and in the grave that are in Christ and He in us are all gathered together in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air at that time and come back with Him as part of His army in Rev 19 that are clothed in fine linen, white and clean. At this time He destroys the beast and the false prophet casting them into the lake of fire, binds Satan and then lets him loose for a little while to wage war against the saints of God, but his army is destroyed by fire that God sends down from heaven. Satan is then cast into the lake of fire followed by those whose names are not written in the book of life Rev 20. God makes new the heaven and earth, sends down the new Jerusalem and there we will be with the Lord for eternity.
II Thessalonians 2:6 "And now ye know what withholdeth [that which restraineth to the end] that he might be revealed in his time [own season]."
"And now", is Paul's reminder to them that they did talk about this when he was with them in person. Who then is this one that would "be revealed in his time?"
The subject here is "the son of perdition", Satan, the Antichrist, or what ever name you desire to use for him. He is Satan, and Satan will commit the "abomination of desolation" of Daniel 9:27; and the church will be here to see it, because the "gathering", of Christ's return follows this.
II Thessalonians 2:7 "For the mystery of iniquity [lawlessness] doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."
There is no mystery around when this will take place, for we will know his methods of operation [withholdeth], and the signs, the seasons, and the times of Satan's arrival to earth. If you are in the Word of God and not following these "one verse preachers", you will know when to expect the Antichrist. You will also know within hours of when to expect our Lord Jesus Christ's return. Satan's reign on earth is not seven years because God reduced that time to five months for the "elect's" sake, as Jesus told us in Matthew 24:22. Jesus also revealed that the time is shortened to five months, to John in Revelation 9:5, and 10.
The "mystery of lawlessness" is the mystery of iniquity. "He who now letteth will let"; in the Greek should be translated; "He who holds fast [ketcho] will stand." The ellipsis, or "omission from an expression of a word clearly implied"; "There is one who hold's fast", instead of by repeating the verb, "will let". However, "katecho" is a transitive verb, and an object must be supplied also. So if the subject in verse six is Satan, then the object must be his position in the heavenlies [see Ephesians 6:12], from which he will be ejected from heaven by Michael [Revelation 12:7-9].
"Out of the way", in the Greek is "out of ek", or "the midst". It is the same expression used in Acts 17:33, and I Corinthians 5:2.
Many "rapture theorists" claim this one who "letteth" is the Holy Spirit, and they claim that when He is "taken away", then the Antichrist will come. By reversing the role of the characters in the verses here, and attributing what is Satan's to the Holy Spirit, you have a whole new doctrine called the "Any moment doctrine". This false doctrine is better known as the "rapture theory". It is dangerous to play around with a foreign language; and when the flock relies upon their shepherd for the truth, and the shepherd is assumed to be correct; in ignorance it is accepted just because he said it.
It is Michael who "holds fast" on to Lucifer [the Antichrist], and Michael will continue to keep Lucifer held until the appointed time, spoken of above. That time is appointed by God. Then at the appointed time God will give Satan the keys [authority] to release his fallen angels and they will be cast to the earth [see Revelation 9:1-10]. Let's take a look at the one [Michael] who holds on to Satan now.
Revelation 12:7; "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels," Michael [that is who the "he" is in II Thessalonians 2:7 and his [Michael's] angels fought against the dragon [another name for Satan] and his [Satan's] fallen angels.
Revelation 12:8; "And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." This war took place in heaven, and that is where Satan and his angels are now; though Satan's spirit, and demonic spirits are all over the earth today. Now we will see what Michael does with Satan, in fulfilling II Thessalonians 2:7.
Revelation 12:9; "And the great dragon [Satan] was cast out [that is the transitive verb of verse seven], that old serpent [this is the role Satan played in the Garden of Eden], called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world [except for God's elect]: he was cast out onto the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."
This is when Satan will physically appear on earth as a man with his angels. This is the time of the Antichrist's coming, and we must know when this time is by when these events takes place, for Satan comes at the sixth trumpet.
Then the verse picks up where Satan is standing in the holy place. Satan's object is to deceive all the world, and have the world take his markings in their minds. God's Word thus says that Satan will come to earth and stand in that Holy place, before Christ will come and gather anyone back to Himself.
The restrainer was removed in the 5th century. When we study Daniel, we see exactly what that restrainer is. When did the little horn come to power? It was only AFTER the 4th beast's kingdom was divided among the 10 horns. Revelation 17 tells us these 10 horns are 10 kings. This also corresponds to the iron leg kingdom being divided among the 10 toes. The 4th beast represents the Roman Empire. The little horn was not able to rise to power until AFTER the Roman Empire became a divided kingdom. So the restrainer holding the man of sin back was the pagan Roman Empire under the ceasars which was at the height of its strength at that time. The ceasars were worshipped and powerful. Only until after the fall of the roman empire in the 5th century was the papacy able to rise to power among the divided (now christianized since Constantine) kingdom. The papacy then exalted himself in the temple of God, meaning the church. The man of sin is not just a single man, Paul contrasted the man of sin when he talked about the man of God (all who apply to it), and contrasted the mystery of iniquity when he talked about the mystery of godliness.
The man of sin is in fact one man,also known as the son of perdition.
There is only one person in all of scripture by name who is sentenced to die and that person is satan.
The last kingdom will be ruled by satan and his angels,literally ....
Rev 11 is Gods final warning for then the beast is in the world and those who took joy in the killing of the two witnesses will most likely be deceived into following the beast. While others may repent at that time and give glory to God. If any in those days willfully receives the mark of the beast and worships his name their place will be the 2nd death.
Those that reject Gods last warning and testimony as depicted in rev11 ,which will not be done in a corner, won't repent. their focus will be on the beast who deceives them. 2 thess 2:11powerful delusion to believe the lie so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.
I can agree with this and would also like to add more to it.
Actually the beast has always been in the world being mentioned first in Genesis 14:1-24. The first battle mention in scripture is found in Genesis 14:1-24. Shinar, Ellasar and Elam became known later in scripture as being Babylon, which is now modern day Iraq, whose kings have always fought and taken captive Gods covenant people starting with Lot who was Abraham's nephew in whom Abraham took his army and fought against these four eastern kings and defeated them. This first battle (beast out of the sea) was about controlling power, greed and monopoly on international trade (economics) as they tried to defeat everyone who opposed them as they took captive not only possessions from others, but also held them captive.
We know how history repeats itself as Jerusalem has been destroyed twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times as these eastern kings will always try to take possession of what God gave to Abraham through the covenant God made with him in Genesis 12:1-3 and all his generation after him. This will continue until the last day when Christ returns, John 6:40, as these four kings are that of the controlling power within the four nations Daniel speaks of in Daniel Chapter 7 with the last one that received a deadly wound, but the wound has been healed, Revelation 13:3. The four nations are: Babylonian Empire: Iraq (the lion), Medo, Persian Empire: Iran (the ribs of the bear), Grecian Empire: (Greece, Turkey, Syria, Egypt) four wings of the leopard, Roman Empire: (Iron represents the stronghold this nation had). Daniel chapter 2 mentions the iron element of this empire that it to will be divided and broken as God will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed.
The beast rises up out of the sea as the sea here is symbolic of people and nations as in a sea of humanity, Daniel Chapter 7:1-8; Revelation 17:15.
The beast was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies and power was given unto him to continue for three and a half years which equals 1260 days, Daniel 7:25; 12:7; Revelation 11:2, 3. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints and to overcome them and power was given him over all kindred’s, and tongues, and nations as this beast is the same as the four eastern kings found in Genesis 14:1-24 and Daniel Chapter 7.
Notice the fourth king in Genesis 14:1 was king over many nations as Satan worked through him as well as the other three kings, Genesis 14:14:1. This is the same with the beast out of the earth that Satan works through who will try to devour all those faithful to Gods covenant, Rev 13:11-18; Genesis 12:1-3. Daniel 7:24, 25 and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, He will think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. This fourth king (beast out of the earth) whose deadly wound has been healed is even now plotting for economic, political and religious control as he is the son of perdition who is the last false prophet (antichrist) who by lying signs and wonders will cause a great falling away from God, 2Thessalonians 2:1-8 in as much as he can deceive the very elect if possible, Matthew 24:24.
2 Timothy 3:17
so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work
Is this "man of God " only one person, or all who apply to it? As I said Paul contrasted the man of God with the man of sin. And the mystery of iniquity with the mystery of godliness. It is not one single man. It is the papacy.
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There are Christian brothers and sisters in the RCC . Please in stating your views do not use this site to bash all Catholics. Making your point is fine just dont go beyond .
Do not reply to this post in this thread.. reba
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WE will continue to disagree on who or what the beast of the sea an earth are. The angel of the abyss released at the sounding of the 5th trump call of God - currently imprisoned.
The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.(42 months of reign) I still state woe upon the earth when that beast is released. For as we agree a powerful delusion shall enter the world so that the world will believe the lie
An eight king in the same league at the previous 7
The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.
The beast is not symbolic of peoples and nations as is noted in rev 17:11THe future babylon that is destroyed by the beast is the prostitue that sits over “The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations That can't be the beast for it is a sign given for the great prostate the city that rules over the world "sits" over the waters suggests economic power with great influence over the nations at that time not military power. Th only thing in that region that i can think of that the nations would sell their souls for in future years is oil. BUT I dont know. The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.
2 thess 2 niv
They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. (there repentance is not sought by God at this point after the final warning/signs given by the two witnesses in rev 11has been rejected and they took joy in the killing of the two witnesses Rather at this point Gods judgments overtake them.
Randy, we might not always agree, but I do appreciate that we have always remained civil with each other. Just wanted to throw that out there.
The beast once was, now is not, and yet will be, Rev 17:8, has never changed as it is Satan who works through this revived end of days Babylonian Empire with its political, economic and religious power. There is no military power involved. When one continues to read the rest of chapter 17 and compare that to what Daniel Chapter 7 and 9 reveals you will see that it is Satan who restrains that which will come in the end of days, described in Rev 13, as he controls mystery Babylon, the great mother of harlots and abominations of the earth.
In Rev 17 John is once more caught up in the Spirit as this angel shows him the future judgment of Mystery Babylon who is the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth. Mystery Babylon is described first as a great whore that sits on many waters. She is a mystery to John when the vision was given to him, but now made very clear since the sixteenth century Reformation.
I can not get into what the colors represent per the ToS, but I can show what the seven heads and ten nations are according to Daniel chapters 7 and 9.
The seven heads are that of the Babylonian Empire: (Iraq), Medo - Persian Empire: (Iran), Grecian Empire: (Greece, Turkey, Syria, Egypt), Roman Empire. The ten horns represent the nations the Roman Empire scattered to when the deadly wound was put upon them, Daniel 7:23-25.
These ten nations were the Anglo-Saxons (English), the Franks (French), Suevi (Portuguese), Visigoths (Spanish), Burgundians (Swiss), Alemanni (Germans), Lombards (Italians), Ostrogoths, Heruli, and the Vandals in northern Africa. The last three being Ostrogoths, Heruli, and the Vandals had already been destroyed by the Roman Empire before their deadly wound came in 1798.
The woman was drunk with power the beast (Satan) gave her as she made martyrs of the saints and prophets of God as their blood was shed for their faith in Christ Jesus as they refused to denounce Christ in order to take the mark of this beast and bow down to this one world political, economic and religious system. The beast, being Satan, has always controlled the seven heads and ten nations as he works through those to kill, steal and destroy that which is God’s. We read back in Chapter 13 about the beast out of the sea and the beast out of the earth and who the son of perdition is as being the false prophet which Satan works through causing those to bow down to this political, economic and religious system as now that which holds back being Satan will then at that time let loose that which has to come first before the return of the Lord.
I don't think we are going to agree. I see the beast as a angel who was once, currently imprisoned; released at the sounding 5th trump for Gods purposes. =>they perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
Also I can't assign nations, kings, and places to furture events not yet fulfilled. Unless they are given. I read 10 nations will align with the beast but don't know with any degree of certainty who those nations will be at this time. I read of 7 kings and the future beast is an 8th king. I don't know who they are and who will be the 8th king. I do believe there will be a future city of great economic wealth and influence over the nations in the land of shinar. (babylon) And the beast and His false prophet will attack and destroy that future city again the beast in acting in accordance to Gods purpose to destroy/judge this future Babylon. The nations have committed adultery with this future city. And like I stated the only thing I can see, (at this time), that the nations would sell their souls for to obtain in that region is oil but I don't know. The women in the basket Zech 5 Placed in the land of shinar.
Randy, this is not to persuade you in any means of what you believe, but to show you what I believe as I study all of this. I never ask anyone to agree with me, but to read the scriptures for what has already been said. God bless you my brother as we seek out the deeper things of Gods word.
The angel who is called Apollyon/Abaddon in Rev 9:11 was sent by God for His purpose to have this angel open the pit and rule over these locust as they were commanded not to kill any man, but to only torment them to where they would want to die, but could not. This angel according to Rev 9:11 was never previously bound/imprisoned in the pit, but was the angel of the bottomless pit. Many think that since the name means destroyer in the Hebrew that this is an evil angel that Satan uses in Rev 9 at the 5th trumpet. If this was an evil angel why would Satan use him to torment those who are already his?
This is not the beast of out of the sea or out from the earth in Rev 13. What is being restrained for now is the mystery of who the son of perdition is who is already working iniquity in the world, but many are yet blinded to who it is that is causing a falling away from truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12.
Apollyon/Abaddon is a Hebrew word which means destruction/destroyer as God used this angel in Exodus 12:23; 1 Chronicles 21:15-18; 1 Corinthians 10:10; Hebrews 11:28; Rev 9:11.
I understand thanks. But I don't agree with you.
God would not bound or imprison angels who remained faithful to Him or for no reason so while in the past God ordered His angel or angels to strike firstborns down or people down they were angels who are obedient and faithful to God.
Probably got the idea of a fallen or (evil) angel from that acts of the beast in rev 13. The beast out of the sea. Curses God makes war against the saints etc..
Rev 17:8 describes the beast coming up out of the abyss. The angel of the abyss.
Separate names with a comma.