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Witnessing to a Jehovah Witness
- Thread starter Ken Jones
- Start date
Cygnus
Member
I would say yes. Why? Because their first baptism was in the name of a false Jesus...and certainly not in the name of the Trinity.
I believe the bible is silent on this issue. Who knows, maybe some one would have a verse on it.
Secondly, the baptism in water doesn't save...baptism is an outward sign.
Ken Jones
Member
Yes, I take your point, thanks. I think we need to get our JW enquirer friend to fully understand the Bible statements that challenge the JW doctrines, bring the person to correctly acknowledge Jesus Christ, then talk about water baptism, in the name of the one true God - Jesus. Thanks!
Does Baptism save a person, even though one who believes and is baptized is saved, it is in reality believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. There are other scripture that even say any that call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.
I'll just mention this, but Romans Chapter Ten's context in Israel today, chapter nine was Israel past, and chapter eleven is Israel future.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. There's been many a soldier call out for God's help in a foxhole with the enemy approaching.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?
Hi Ken and welcome to CF
Water baptism is only an outward appearance to others that you have accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior.
Ephesians 2:8 Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus and not by works, which would make water baptism a work towards repentance. John said I must decrease and Jesus increase. Jesus never baptized with actual water even though He first came to John's water baptism as a fulfillment of prophecy and the beginning of Christ ministry as the Holy Spirit fell down on Him that day and there after Jesus baptized others with the Holy Spirit, John 3:25-34
John 3:5 never mentions the word baptize, but says only by being born of water and spirit, which means water as living water (word) that no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are Spiritually renewed (born again) by the word, which is Christ Jesus and by the Holy Spirit that came on them in the OT and indwells us in the NT. Many do read into the passage a preconceived idea or theology, but baptism is never mentioned in this verse. Word is living water as described in John 4:10; 7:38; 1John 5:6; Jeremiah 2:13; Isaiah 55:1-3 to name a few.
If salvation came by actual immersion in water Jesus clearly could have simply stated, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is baptized by being immersed in water and born of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Further, if Jesus had made such a statement, He would have contradicted numerous other Bible passages that make it clear that salvation is by faith (John 3:16; John 3:36; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5).
Water baptism is only an outward appearance to others that you have accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior.
Ephesians 2:8 Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus and not by works, which would make water baptism a work towards repentance. John said I must decrease and Jesus increase. Jesus never baptized with actual water even though He first came to John's water baptism as a fulfillment of prophecy and the beginning of Christ ministry as the Holy Spirit fell down on Him that day and there after Jesus baptized others with the Holy Spirit, John 3:25-34
John 3:5 never mentions the word baptize, but says only by being born of water and spirit, which means water as living water (word) that no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are Spiritually renewed (born again) by the word, which is Christ Jesus and by the Holy Spirit that came on them in the OT and indwells us in the NT. Many do read into the passage a preconceived idea or theology, but baptism is never mentioned in this verse. Word is living water as described in John 4:10; 7:38; 1John 5:6; Jeremiah 2:13; Isaiah 55:1-3 to name a few.
If salvation came by actual immersion in water Jesus clearly could have simply stated, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is baptized by being immersed in water and born of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Further, if Jesus had made such a statement, He would have contradicted numerous other Bible passages that make it clear that salvation is by faith (John 3:16; John 3:36; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5).
Northman
Member
I think if they come to that knowledge of Jesus, they are going to be spending so much time unlearning what they have learned to be worried about something like that. Not making light of anything, just saying.
Cygnus
Member
I think John 6:65 has to happen or else the JW can't come to Jesus.
And He was saying, "Because of this, I have said to you that no one is able to come to Me, unless it shall have been granted to him from the Father."
I think people just don't like that Jehovah’s Witnesses do not agree with teachings that contradict what Jesus himself said about his relationship with the Father. Many religions teach that Jesus is God, but Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the best way to learn the truth about Jesus is to examine what he said about himself?
So What Did Jesus Say?
At John 6:38. Jesus said: “I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me.” Now, that statement is a bit puzzling if Jesus is God.
At John 6:38 Jesus said he did not come down from heaven to do his own will.
So if Jesus is God, who sent him down from heaven? And why did Jesus yield to the will of that One?
At John 7:16. Jesus made a similar statement.
Jesus said, ‘What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me.’” According to this verse, Jesus didn't teach his own ideas?
He said that his teachings belong to the One who sent him. So we have to wonder: ‘Who sent Jesus? And who gave him the truths he taught?’ Wouldn’t that One be greater than Jesus? After all, the sender is superior to the one who is sent.
Also Jesus’ said at John 14:28: “You heard that I said to you, I am going away and I am coming back to you. If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.” Based on that verse, how would you say Jesus viewed himself in relation to the Father?
Notice what Jesus told his disciples as recorded at Matthew 28:18. That verse says: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.” So did Jesus say that he always had all authority? Because God has always had all authority. No one gave God his authority.
So if Jesus is God, how could he be given more authority? And who gave it to him? To Whom Was He Speaking?
There is something else that is rather puzzling if Jesus truly is God.
It’s what we read about Jesus’ baptism. Notice the account recorded at Luke 3:21, 22. It says, “Now when all the people were baptized, Jesus also was baptized and, as he was praying, the heaven was opened up and the holy spirit in bodily shape like a dove came down upon him, and a voice came out of heaven: ‘You are my Son, the beloved; I have approved you.’”
Did you notice what Jesus was doing as he was being baptized?
He was praying. If Jesus is God, to whom was he praying?
Along a similar line, note that after Jesus came up out of the water, someone spoke from heaven.
This someone said that Jesus was His Son, that He loved him, and that He approved of him.
So if Jesus is God, who said those things from heaven?
Here’s something else to consider: We’ve read that Jesus spoke of God as his heavenly Father. And when Jesus was baptized, a voice from heaven referred to Jesus as His Son. In fact, Jesus specifically called himself God’s Son. Now, if you wanted to teach me that two people are equal, what sort of family relationship might you use to illustrate the point? Might you use two brothers, twins even.
But Jesus referred to God as the Father and to himself as the Son. We human beings understand a Father Son relationship. Our fathers are born before us his son, so he is older, and the Father has more authority than his sons. So, what message do you suppose Jesus was conveying? Wasn't Jesus describing one individual as being older and as having more authority than the other.
Two brothers, or twins is such a fitting illustration of equality.
If Jesus really were God, don’t you think that Jesus, as the Great Teacher, would have thought of the same comparison, or an even clearer example of equality?
But, instead, he used the terms “Father” and “Son” to describe his relationship with God.
If Jesus truly is God, wouldn’t you expect that Jesus’ disciples would have plainly said so? Doesn't that seem reasonable?
Yet, nowhere in the Scriptures do we read of their teaching that. On the contrary, notice what one of Jesus’ early followers, the apostle Paul, wrote. At Philippians 2:9, he describes what God did after Jesus’ death and resurrection: “God exalted him [Jesus] to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name.” According to this verse, what did God do for Jesus?
It says that God exalted him to a superior position.
But if Jesus were equal to God before he died and God later exalted him to a higher position, wouldn’t that put Jesus above God? How could anyone be superior to God?
Based on this little bit of evidence from the scriptures, then, the Bible doesn't teach that Jesus is God.
So What Did Jesus Say?
At John 6:38. Jesus said: “I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me.” Now, that statement is a bit puzzling if Jesus is God.
At John 6:38 Jesus said he did not come down from heaven to do his own will.
So if Jesus is God, who sent him down from heaven? And why did Jesus yield to the will of that One?
At John 7:16. Jesus made a similar statement.
Jesus said, ‘What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me.’” According to this verse, Jesus didn't teach his own ideas?
He said that his teachings belong to the One who sent him. So we have to wonder: ‘Who sent Jesus? And who gave him the truths he taught?’ Wouldn’t that One be greater than Jesus? After all, the sender is superior to the one who is sent.
Also Jesus’ said at John 14:28: “You heard that I said to you, I am going away and I am coming back to you. If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.” Based on that verse, how would you say Jesus viewed himself in relation to the Father?
Notice what Jesus told his disciples as recorded at Matthew 28:18. That verse says: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.” So did Jesus say that he always had all authority? Because God has always had all authority. No one gave God his authority.
So if Jesus is God, how could he be given more authority? And who gave it to him? To Whom Was He Speaking?
There is something else that is rather puzzling if Jesus truly is God.
It’s what we read about Jesus’ baptism. Notice the account recorded at Luke 3:21, 22. It says, “Now when all the people were baptized, Jesus also was baptized and, as he was praying, the heaven was opened up and the holy spirit in bodily shape like a dove came down upon him, and a voice came out of heaven: ‘You are my Son, the beloved; I have approved you.’”
Did you notice what Jesus was doing as he was being baptized?
He was praying. If Jesus is God, to whom was he praying?
Along a similar line, note that after Jesus came up out of the water, someone spoke from heaven.
This someone said that Jesus was His Son, that He loved him, and that He approved of him.
So if Jesus is God, who said those things from heaven?
Here’s something else to consider: We’ve read that Jesus spoke of God as his heavenly Father. And when Jesus was baptized, a voice from heaven referred to Jesus as His Son. In fact, Jesus specifically called himself God’s Son. Now, if you wanted to teach me that two people are equal, what sort of family relationship might you use to illustrate the point? Might you use two brothers, twins even.
But Jesus referred to God as the Father and to himself as the Son. We human beings understand a Father Son relationship. Our fathers are born before us his son, so he is older, and the Father has more authority than his sons. So, what message do you suppose Jesus was conveying? Wasn't Jesus describing one individual as being older and as having more authority than the other.
Two brothers, or twins is such a fitting illustration of equality.
If Jesus really were God, don’t you think that Jesus, as the Great Teacher, would have thought of the same comparison, or an even clearer example of equality?
But, instead, he used the terms “Father” and “Son” to describe his relationship with God.
If Jesus truly is God, wouldn’t you expect that Jesus’ disciples would have plainly said so? Doesn't that seem reasonable?
Yet, nowhere in the Scriptures do we read of their teaching that. On the contrary, notice what one of Jesus’ early followers, the apostle Paul, wrote. At Philippians 2:9, he describes what God did after Jesus’ death and resurrection: “God exalted him [Jesus] to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name.” According to this verse, what did God do for Jesus?
It says that God exalted him to a superior position.
But if Jesus were equal to God before he died and God later exalted him to a higher position, wouldn’t that put Jesus above God? How could anyone be superior to God?
Based on this little bit of evidence from the scriptures, then, the Bible doesn't teach that Jesus is God.
Scriptures that reference Jesus being referred to as God:
John 1:1-14; John 10:30; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8, 9; 1 John 5:7, 8, 20; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 13:14; Isaiah 9:6; 44:6; Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:23; 28:19; John 14:16, 17; Genesis 1:1, 2 (cross reference John 1:1-14); 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:15-17; John 14:9-11; Philippians 2:5-8; Rev 1:8
Scriptures that reference the Holy Spirit as being God:
Psalms 139:7, 8; John 14:17; 16:13; Isaiah 40:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10, 11; Zechariah 4:6; Luke 1:35; Ephesians 4:4-6; Romans 5:5; 1 Corinthians 6:19; Ephesians 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; Titus 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21; Jude 1:20
These are scriptures that people interpret Jesus is being God. The scriptures themselves don't say Jesus is God, but there are people who interpret these scriptures to mean Jesus is God, but I don't follow imperfect human beings interpretation of scripture.
Like for instance the scripture John 10:30 I think it's obvious Jesus himself showed what he meant by his being “one” with the Father. At John 17:21, 22, he prayed to God that his disciples “may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, . . . that they may be one just as we are one.” Jesus wasn't praying that all his disciples would become a single entity. He obviously was praying that they would be united in thought and purpose, as he and God were. Being united in thought and purpose is exactly what john 10:30 means it goes right along with the context that John 10:30 is in.
At Colossians 2:9 people just want other people to use Bibles that translate the Greek word "theotes" as Godhead or Deity. These translators of these Bibles translate the Greek word theotes as Godhead or Diety because they attribute personality to the Greek word theotes. However when it comes to Greek words like, theos it can be translated as God, referring to the true God, but this word theos can also be translated as god or it can be translated as divine. There are Greek words related to the Greek word theos, words such as, theios, theiotes, theotes. The Greek word theotes is at Colossians 2:9 and going by what the scripture is saying I think it's more accurate to translate the Greek word theotes as, divine quality not Godhead or Deity.
It can be seen that the renderings of Colossians 2:9 that favor a sense of personality would give the idea of God’s personally dwelling in Christ, a view held by trinitarians. The translations expressing “divine nature” or qualities would, instead, indicate that Christ is the very embodiment of the divine qualities, such as wisdom (1 Corinthians 1:30; Colossians 2:3; Revelations 5:11, 12); As the context shows, those in the Christian congregation would look to the resurrected Jesus, their divinely appointed Head, for all their guidance and instruction, as well as blessings, from God, and not to human philosophers and traditionalists. (Colossians 2:8-10; compare 1:18-20.) Jesus, therefore, had the “fullness” of all that such Christians needed. This, it must be noted, was granted him by his Father, who raised him from the dead and sat him “on the right hand of [God’s] majesty” as the “reflection of [God’s] glory and the exact representation of his very being.”(Hebrews 1:1-3; Philippians 2:8-11)
So I don't see Colossians 2:9 as teaching Jesus is God just because a person has a Bible that translates the Greek word theotes as Godhead or Deity, when I can see for myself by research that the Greek words theios, theiotes, and theotes
Jehovah Witness do not believe in the Trinity. Instead, they follow a strict monotheism, in which: Jehovah is the Supreme Being. Jesus is the Son of God, a created being. Christ is believed to have originally existed in a pre-human state as the Archangel Michael. He later took human form as a man like any other person, except that he was sinless at birth and remained so throughout his earthly life. Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ. They believe that after the crucifixion, Christ died and was resurrected as an invisible, non-material, glorious, spirit creature. They believe that Jesus appeared on earth after his resurrection in a special body that Jehovah created for him.
The Holy Spirit they believe, is not a separate entity, but is simply a force: the method by which God interacts with the world.
Highway54
Member
When baptism became a requirement for Christians Ken, it had to be performed by God's people correct? John the initiator of baptism was the cousin of Jesus, and was one of God's people. One would not go to the priests of another god and be baptized, as we couldn't expect Jehovah to accept that.
Baptism is a public declaration of one's faith and dedication. It is symbolic to our dying to the world and our former course of life, to give ourselves over to doing God's will eternally. One would have to be spiritually mature to make that decision. So if one was from another faith, and converted to another faith they would want to be baptized into that faith if their by laws determined it.
Jehovah's witnesses are no different, a prime example is me, I was raised in the various churches of Christendom, but from 64 on attended a Baptist church, and was baptized as an infant, but after determining that Jehovah's witnesses were God's people, I chose to be baptized again in 1985 with a new dedication.
Thanks for the question sir.
You assume that Jehovah's Witnesses haven't been granted permission to go to his only begotten Son from his Father.
Every time I listen to what a Trinitarian believes they all consistently deny that the only begotten son is the Word so when the scriptures say that the Word became flesh/human they are the ones denying that the only begotten son became flesh/human, and came to the world of mankind.
The Bible says that “God sent his only-begotten Son into the world so that we might gain life through him.” (1 John 4:9)
There at 1 John 4:9 the apostle John repeatedly describes the Lord Jesus Christ as the only-begotten Son of God. (John 1:14; 3:16, 18; 1John 4:9) This is not in reference to his human birth or to him as just the man Jesus. Because as the Logos, or Word, “this one was in the beginning with God,” even “before the world was.” (John 1:1, 2; 17:5, 24) So the only begotten Son of God was with God in the beginning. At that time while in his prehuman state of existence, he is described as the “only-begotten Son” whom his Father sent “into the world.”(1John 4:9)
From what I can tell every time I talk to a Trinitarian it's they who are denying that it was the only begotten son who became human and was sent to the world of mankind. Because it's they who deny that the only begotten son of God is the Word. So it looks to me that it's they who haven't truly come to Jesus because Jesus Father hasn't granted them permission because they deny that his only begotten son being the Word who was with him in the beginning and deny that it was the only begotten son who the one who became flesh/human that the True God sent to the world of mankind.
You do know you're responding to someone who hasn't been on or posted in almost three years, right?
Why is it the Jehovahs Witness habit to resurrect dead old threads from years ago? They never answer this question.
That doesn't matter to me. I don't care how long ago this has been posted or if the person who posted it is no longer posting on this forum. I posted concerning what this post said, and I actually wasn't posting to just this one trinitarian.
It's three years old, lol. Nobody was even paying attention to it until you dragged it out of the crypt.
Don't you think that's a little counter-productive?
I don't think posting to the things people say about Jehovah's Witnesses as being counter-productive. Maybe people think Jehovah's Witnesses should just shut up and take what other people say about them, but I hear a lot of foolish statements people say about Jehovah's Witnesses and I'm going to post about what they say, no matter how long it's been posted. You don't have to read my posts.It's three years old, lol. Nobody was even paying attention to it until you dragged it out of the crypt.
Don't you think that's a little counter-productive?
I'm saying it is a chronic habit with Jehovahs Witnesses, and happens too often to be by accident. Do you guys have a directive from your governing body to dredge up old threads and respond to them or something? Why not just start your own?
I mean, it ends up kinda being the same thing, it's just that experienced members see you guys dragging 10 year old threads up and they're like, "Why? This thread was deader than a hammer, and none of the people they are 'responding' to are active anymore. Some may even be dead."
It's a strange practice, and if I'm simply being honest here, somewhat irritating. Nothing against you personally. And I do appreciate you at least taking a second to answer me. The last five times I've asked these questions of Jehovahs Witnesses I've gotten dead silence, which also struck me as weird because they were more than willing to 'answer' someone who had long since disappeared.
Well I think you're making some ridiculous accusation about the governing body has given Jehovah's witnesses some directive. You make some ridiculous accusation like that and you wonder why they don't answer you? It's a ridiculous accusation. But this is what I mean about people, you honestly think Jehovah's Witnesses respond to posts because of some directive from the governing body, LOL. I see a post, and if I want to respond to it, I do. It doesn't matter to me how old the post is or if the person who posted it is still with the Christian forum. When I post something it's my thinking that not just that person who posted it will read what I post. That's all there is to it. You want to have some ridiculous belief that the governing body give Jehovah's Witnesses some directive concerning some post on a Christian forum, go for it, LOL. It's a ridiculous belief but you have a right to ridiculous beliefs.
Also do you think you're the only one who gets irritated? When we read all the ridiculous accusations that people of other religions make about Jehovah's Witnesses, we get irritated.
I asked a simple question. What's with all the reaction? And it's not just you, and it's not just here. On every forum I have ever been involved in, the Jehovahs Witnesses and the Jehovahs Witnesses in particular have a habit of doing this, like without fail. So why is it such a "ridiculous" question to be asking why?
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