Bible Study Women in the church

[shad]

1 Peter 3:1-7



I think that a man has a responsibility to give honor to his wife in the marriage, it's obvious in this passage, but according to Peter God still requires that a woman be submissive to a disobedient husband so that he can be won 'without the word', by her example of honoring God and laying down her life...God considers this of high value.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion but I wholeheartedly disagree. I have seen so many children sacrificed spiritually living hypocritical environment of double standard household.

I have separated from my husband because of his double standard, and my children are all grown now and committed believers. We did not have peace in the family because of our different life styles. No parents have right to take away privileges of being raised in peaceful environment from their children.

I would like to add that my husband has been claiming to be a believer all his life without being obedient to Jesus' teachings. My children are committed to the Lord because they have seen me following Jesus without compromising.

 

[turnorburn]

I Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Someone said it was only mentioned once to that I say isn't once enough?

 

[lovely]

Shad,

I do not condemn you, as I have things in my own life to contend with, but I gave you the Word and a testimony of the blessing of reaping the benefits of my mother (I hate the 'step') obeying it. I was saved young, grew up with only a dad...one who was an atheist...and when I turned 19 he was married to his wife. She was saved, and God changed her. My dad was truly converted when I was 34 years old, because she spent years exampling Christ's word before him...bringing God's peace to their home with her quiet spirit. I am so grateful to her, and consider her an answer to a child's lifelong prayers for her lost dad. She gave her life for the body, and now my dad is part of it. Father God was a Father and Mother to me while younger, but later in life she has become a woman that I honor as my mother and imitate because she follows the Lord.

I praise the Lord that your children follow God. God is gracious toward us, even if we do not follow His Word in every area. I hope that your husband may genuinely find Him as well. The Lord bless you.

 

[shad]

Lovely,

All I am saying is that I will not advice anyone to stay with abusive husband at expense of their children. Jesus hates hypocrisy and staying with hypocritical father is not Jesus' way.

My children sure appreciate it that I did not compromize staying with my husband. I don't believe I am being disobedient to Jesus for my priority of raising kids as they should go.

 

[lovely]

shad,

I read you post to me. I wanted to acknowledge that so that you were aware. We remain in disagreement, but I do not want to dispute with you as you are my sister, and I am thankful that you were obedient to raising your children in the Way of the Lord. On the Scriptural mandate of raising children for the Lord we completely agree!! Praise the Lord! I am genuinely praising God for His work in your life, and in the lives of your children...and probably grandchildren...even if I disagree with your method. God is gracious.

I just realized that we are probably also hijacking his thread somewhat, though the topcis are related, and so I leave the subject for now.

The Lord bless you and keep you in His peace.

 

[Entropic_Prodigy]

I just wanted to say that I approached my (male) pastor today after service and asked him bluntly, "What is your stand on women teaching in the church"? Some very interesting things happened:

1. He laughed and asked if I'd ever seen his wife preach (I haven't yet, but evidently she does)
2. He immediately and specifically stated that a women's role in the church should not be confined to, ahem, "Children's Ministries" and "Serving food at church functions" which are almost my exact words and part of the reason why I left the other church, both of which he cannot know...the wording he chose is most definitely ironic.
3. He began pointing out the various verses and examples already cited on this forum as evidence for women taking on leadership roles in the church, and handed me my bible back and stated that "doctrines" are not formed by a few snippets of verse here and there, but must be consistent throughout the bible. He also made note of the order of greeting for Romans 6:13, in which he stated was more important back then than it is now. While he was flipping, I brought up the 5-fold ministry argument, and he stated that there were women prophets (prophetesses in both the new testament, and the old -- and the word is just what it is. The bible makes a clear distinction between Prophets and those who prophecy -- Deborah and Anna are Prophets, not just people who prophesy.
4. He asked me if I could sense the Holy Spirit at work in the church, and the school where my daughter attends. My answer was yes, and he smiled and said that was all I needed to know.

This was less than a 5-minute conversation. I saw two people I kind of know from my daughter's school on my way out the door to my car, and each one stopped and spoke with me about what I thought of the church, and why they hadn't seen much of me before. I gave a brief explanation that we usually attend another church, but that my daughter felt so comfortable here we started attending recently. One asked if there was anything she could do to make me feel more at home there, and volunteered to sit with me next week. The other, told me she knew I worked and my daughter attended after-school care, and volunteered to pick her up once or twice a week so she could play with her daughter. Community...shocking.

I left church today definitely feeling like I belonged there, and I know that this is home, and that this is God's church. At the other church I attended, women would congregate in groups and give you a once-over when approached to see if you "fit in" with them. I rarely spoke to anyone, and everyone I shook hands with gave me the "dead fish". As a result, I've stopped shaking hands with just about everyone, because it makes my soul feel slimy to feel that. The Pastor today didn't dead-fish me, and no one gave me a once-over on approach...the dead-fish rule isn't biblical, but it definitely leaves quite an impression on anyone who's ever had one! Yuckkkk.

Conclusion: I've been affirmed, more than once today, and it's been an answer to a prayer. I pray also that if anyone else is seeking guidance on this issue, their prayers be answered as clearly as mine were today.

Blessings,

ENTP.

p.s = This is not a debate.

 

[lovely]

Entropic,

I think it is a blessing that the Lord has you in a place where you can learn about Him and be at home in the body of Christ. While I realize that we do not agree on what the whole counsel of the Word is in this area, I am praising God that He is using part of the body to minister to you and giving you an opportunity to serve the whole. Praise God for His answered prayer.

The Lord bless you today.

 

[LanceEh]

Although a conterversial topic, as you stated, it seems as we approach nearer to what could be the endtimes, it seems that the role of women and men seems to become more and more blurred. The Apostle Paul was very clear on the role of women in the church, but it seems especaially after the "women's lib" movement and all that, it's almost considered hate mongering to mention it anymore. I just see it as times truly changing.

God bless.

 

[sheshisown]

Hello ladies~ ~

I would like to add, a third, and (IMHO biblical) approach to the topic of whether to stay with an abusive spouse. I really believe there are cases in which the Lord gives grace for separation, and cases in which He gives grace to women who remain... I do not believe divorce is okay, it is an ugly sad and often foolish choice that we ought never to make. I know I will sound as dated as I can be, however, marriage is the most beautiful witness we have in this world of Christ and His bride, the church... and our Father in heaven would protect the witness of His Son!

I have also experinced abusive marriage~ twice~ in both my marriages. Both men said they were Christians, I do not believe it is my call to say whether they were or not, that is a matter of the heart (God's domain). Neither of them showed what the Bible calls fruit. In the first case I was physically abused, to the point that if I had not left after 12 years of abuse, he would surely have killed me. I remained separated for 8 years though I was not walking with Jesus, I could not divorce him, easily. I finally did though; to marry my second husband. . .

My second husband was spiritually abusive. From my perspective this type of abuse is more damaging, and I believe a dreadful thing to do before God to another person. Just to clarify, when a person can serve faithfully in church with a winning smile and warm hug for the guys at bible study, and then go home to call out demons from his wife because she is insecure in their relationship and cries too much. Or rants over inconsistancies in the performance of household duties, while raving about a sister in the Lord's homekeeping skills, and then proceeds to tell his wife that she has slapped Jesus across the face by her angry words at him... well

I cannot say how I feel about this~ even now, it would not be godly. All abuse is an evil betrayal of another person' trust. :bigfrown But Jesus is my Protector now, and my husband, there is none better! :heart

However, allow me to unfold one more portion of this story, something that has taught me about Biblical separation. I waited and prayed for the Lord to change this second man for three years after he moved away to another state. After he failed to proceed with the counseling by phone agreed to, and assisted by a non-involved Pastor. I phoned him once too often, and got his female roomate on the line.

Since then I have waited another eleven years... separated. I have learned there are many benefits to aloneness, and though I still hate divorce, I am having to live inside the grace of God daily, to get a second one now. I have been legally married for most of my adult life, but I have virtually lived alone through its majority. Divorce does not lead to happiness ladies. But it might lead you into a second relationship similiar to the last --- or worse! MANY women make foul judgements because they are lonely. There are no quick fixes when it comes to relationships. God is into relationship... this is one area nobody gets to slide by doing no trail time thru life. :headbomb Even the worldly struggle~ and they do not have a powerful enemy as we do.

So from my understanding there are times, just as in the times of Moses, when the Lord allows it (that is Jesus' way of referring to the writing of divorce). Is it a demonstration of His grace? Yes, His grace in keeping us who divorce through it, being able to endure in Christ~ and remain single possibly till death do we part. :crazy Have you considered that posibility? But it is clearly outside of His perfect will. He permits it, because our hearts are hardened and will not CHOOSE to continue LOVE.

But~~~ OH so long is the wait and raising children as a single parent only adds to the collateral damages. My girls needed an alive mommy... and later I needed a sound mind. But it was not until Jesus Christ became King in my heart that it stopped slipping into fits and spasms of fool hardy and costly behaviors! If anyone is considering divorce ...Please WAIT and be PRAYFUL my SISTERS!

There is only one path to true joy... and the cross is on that way. bonnie

 

[gideon3213]

1 Cor 11:3
3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. NKJV
This verse makes it plane that God has established an authority structure for the inhabitants of Earth, and it is 1. God 2. Jesus. 3. Man. 4. Woman.
The word head means absolute control over another. As a CEO of a company is the head of his company and has absolute control over it: and as your own head on your shoulders has control over your body: So also men are to have control over women. (Read Mathew Henry’s commentary on 1 Cor. 11:3-ff)
1 Cor 11:7-10
7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. NKJV
This verse makes it plane that it is only men that are in Gods image. Women are not! It also makes plane what Gods purpose for women is: that of being servants to men. (Helpmeet: is an obedient helper, and companion.)
1 Cor 14:26
How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, NKJV
Here Paul shifts gears and starts to specifically address how men and women are to behave in church gatherings.
1 Cor 14:34-38
34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.
36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. If any one does not recognize this, he is not recognized. NKJV/RSV
Here we see a very strong command from the Lord Jesus Christ being given through the apostle Paul; the command for a woman to never utter any form of speech in the church gatherings. This command forbids them from prophesying, speaking in tongues, interpreting tongues, asking questions, giving opinions, or uttering any other form of speech. This, however does not forbid women from singing songs of praise and worship with the congregation.
1 Tim 2:8-15
9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, 10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works. 11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control. NKJV
Here again we see the command for a woman to be silent in the church. And they are prohibited from teaching men, usurping the authority of men, or exorcising authority over men in any way whatsoever!
Hence we see from the above passages that God strictly forbids women from being pastors of churches. Or from any form of leadership in His church’s. (with the exception of women and children. See Titus 2:1-ff.)
Now lets take a look at Gal 3:26-28
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. KJV
This passage is taken to mean that because there is no male or female in Christ Jesus that women can be pastors of churches and do all that men do in the church. But in order to give it this interpretation; you must ignore all the other teaching of the Bible on this issue. The first thing that we must remember is that Paul is the author of this letter. And in other letters that he wrote (e.g. I Cor, I Tim, etc.) he forbad women from speaking in the church and from teaching or usurping men. How then could Paul have meant for people to understand this passage was a statement of absolute equality between men and women?
But let us look at two other passages that will help us understand this passage better:
Col 3:11 11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. KJV

Col 3:18-22 18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord. 19 Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them. 20 Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord. 21 Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged.
22 Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God: KJV
Notice how similar Col 3:11 is with Gal 3:28. The only thing really missing is ‘male nor female’. Why Paul left it out here is a mystery. (or maybe the mystery is why Paul adds it in Galatians.) Then notice that after Paul stresses our unity in Christ; that just 7 verses later Paul states that Wives must submit themselves to their husbands. Children are to obey their parents. And Servants are to obey their masters. This illustrates that our unity in Christ does not nullify authority structures. (If it did; how could Paul say what he says to wives, children and servants? If unity in Christ did away with authority structures; than wives would no longer need to obey their husbands; children would no longer need to obey there parents; and servants would not need to obey their masters. But this is not the case.)

 

[gideon3213]

Let us look at one finale passage that states this concept more clearly.
1 Cor 12:4-30 4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honorable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honored, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? KJV
This passage makes it plane that we are all one in Christ. But that in the Body we all have different functions that God chooses for us to operate in. (note; we do not get to choose which gift or function we want; rather it is God who chooses for us which gifts and functions that God want’s us to operate in. God give’s no room for selfish ambition in His kingdom. He is the one who chooses who will be an apostle, prophet, or teacher, and what miracles each member will perform. See verse 18, and 28 above.)
The questions in verses 29 and 30 are rhetorical questions with the answer for each being and obvious ‘No’. The point being set forth here is that even though we are all one in Christ; we are not equal to each other in Christ. An apostle is over a prophet in authority; and a Prophet is over a teacher in authority. And the Apostle’s, Prophets, and Teachers are in authority over the rest of the body of Christ.
Now God has spoken in many places concerning His authority structure of men and women. (See I Cor 11:3-16, 14:26-37, I Tim 2:9-15, Titus 2:1-9, Col 3:18, I Pet 3:1-7, Eph 5:22-33 just to name a few. And it is in these passages (and others) that we find out what Gods authority structure is in the home, church, and society.) We need to take heed to Gods instruction’s in these matters! For they have not been negated nor diminished in any way by our unity in Christ! (As many erroneously teach.)
It should be obvious now; in light of these passages; that those who interpret Gal 3:28 to mean that because we are all one in Christ that we are all equal too each other; and thus woman can be pastors, and teacher’s of men; contrary to what God commands in scripture; are seriously twisting the scripture in order to give it a meaning that the Holy Spirit never intended it to have. They need to repent! And conform there lives to God’s word!

For I tell you the truth: if women will not submit to the authority structure that God has ordained for His church here on Earth: How will they ever submit to the authority structure that God has put in place in Heaven?
If women refuse to submit to God's divine authority structure here on earth: they make themselves unfit for the Kingdom of heaven: for if they are continually looking for ways to control the ones that God has placed over them here on earth: they will aslo try to control the ones that God places over them in Heaven! And God will not tolorate such rebellion! this is why feminism is the greatest evil on earth today!

 

[Elijah674]

This quote is not as I see it:

'For I tell you the truth: if women will not submit to the authority structure that God has ordained for His church here on Earth: How will they ever submit to the authority structure that God has put in place in Heaven?
If women refuse to submit to God's divine authority structure here on earth: they make themselves unfit for the Kingdom of heaven: for if they are continually looking for ways to control the ones that God has placed over them here on earth: they will aslo try to control the ones that God places over them in Heaven! And God will not tolorate such rebellion! this is why feminism is the greatest evil on earth today!'

So, sure we find NO women called of God that are apostals. But to do so 'is the greatest evil on earth today! Are you kidding me?????

Read Matt. 7 for the bottom/line of why we see a Rev. 17:1-5 [WHOLE] BUNCH! Perhaps there are only what 'i' call she/shems there? In other words where are the men of Eze. 9 to be found there?

NO: 'i' see the post as a hobby/horse lower level diversion, of the Lords teachings. Like old Israel being allowed a king, and the like teachings.

--Elijah

 

[Codger]

Part One of Two...


Dear CF,

Here is a sampling of the common male attitude
toward women over the millennia...

"Whoever teaches his daughter the Torah is like one
who teaches her obscenity. Rather should the words
of the Torah be burned than entrusted to a woman."
Ancient Rabbi


"It is a shame for a woman to let her voice be heard
among men."
Ancient Rabbi


"The woman is in all things inferior to the man. Let her be accordingly submissive."
Josephus - Historian


"All females, both animal and human, are inferior
to males. We should look upon the female as a
deformity in nature."
Aristotle - Philosopher


"Woman is defective and misbegotten. For
the active power in the male seed produces
a perfect male likeness. A female comes from a
defect in the male seed or from some indisposition
such as the south wind being too moist."
Thomas Aquinas - Church father

"God's sentence hangs over the female sex,
and His punishment weighs down upon you.
You are the devil's gateway. You first violated
the forbidden tree and broke God's law. You
shattered God's image in man, and because
you merited death, you had to die."
Tertullian - Church Father

"It brings man shame even to reflect on
woman's nature. By no means shall
women exhibit any part of their person
lest men become excited and look and fall."
Clement - Church Father

"It is part of her punishment and a part
from which even God's mercy will
not exempt her. Subjection to the will of her
husband is part of her curse."
Clement - Church Father

"Take women from their housewifery and they
are good for nothing."
Martin Luther

"Women have narrow shoulders and broad hips
to sit upon, so they ought to stay home,
keep the house, bear and raise children. The
woman differs from the man; she is weaker in
body, in honor, in intellect and in dignity."
Martin Luther

"If a woman take upon her any office which
God assigned to man, she shall not escape being
cursed. Women are weak, they are frail, they are
impatient and feeble and foolish. They are
inconstant. They are changeable, they are cruel.
They lack spirit and counsel. Woman in her
greatest perfection was made to serve and
only obey men."
John Knox

"One hundred women are not worth a single
testicle."
Confucius (551-479 BCE)

"The five worst infirmities that afflict the
female are indocility, discontent, slander, jealousy,
and silliness... Such is the stupidity of woman's
character, that it is incumbent upon her, in every
particular, to distrust herself and to obey her husband."
The Confucian Marriage Manual

"A proper wife should be as obedient as a slave."
and "The female is a female by virtue of a certain
lack of qualities - a natural defectiveness."
Aristotle (384-322 BCE)

"In childhood a woman must be subject to her father;
in youth to her husband; when her husband is dead,
to her sons. A woman must never be free of subjugation."
The Hindu Code of Manu (c. 100 CE)

"Among all savage beasts, none is found so harmful as woman."
St. John Chrysostom (345-407 CE)

"Men are superior to women."
The Koran (c. 650)

(End of Part one of two)

 

[Codger]

Part two of two

"Any woman who acts in such a way that she cannot
give birth to as many children as she is capable of,
makes herself guilty of that many murders."
St. Augustine (354-430 CE)

"Do you know that each of your women is an Eve?
The sentence of God - on this sex of yours - lives
in this age; the guilt must necessarily live, too. You
are the gate of Hell, you are the temptress of the
orbidden tree; you are the first deserter of the
divine law."
Tertullian in 22 CE

"Woman in her greatest perfection was made to
serve and obey man, not rule and command him."
John Knox (1505-1572)

"The souls of women are so small that some
believe they've none at all."
Samuel Butler (1612-1680)

"What a misfortune to be a woman! And yet,
the worst misfortune is not to understand
what a misfortune it is".
Kierkegaard (1813-1855)

"It seems to me that nearly every woman I know
wants a man who knows how to love with authority.
Women are simple souls who like simple things, and
one of the simplest is one of the simplest to give...
Our family Airedale will come clear across the yard
for one pat on the head. The average wife is like that.
She will come across town, across the house, across
to your point of view, and across almost anything to
give you her love if you offer her yours with some
honest approval."
Episcopal Bishop James Pike in a letter to his son (1968)

"Let us set our women folk on the road to goodness
by teaching them to display submissiveness." "Every
woman should be overwhelmed with shame at the
thought that she is a woman."
St. Clement of Alexandria in 96 CE

In the year 584 CE, in Lyons, France, forty-three
Catholic bishops and twenty men representing other
bishops, held a most peculiar debate: "Are Women
Human?" After many lengthy arguments, a vote was
taken. The results were: thirty-two, yes; thirty-one, no.
Women were declared human by one vote!
Council of Macon

"Blessed art thou, O Lord our God and King of the
Universe, that thou didst not create me a woman."
Daily prayer, still in use, of the orthodox Jewish male

"Woman should remain at home, sit still, keep house,
and bear and bring up children." and "If a woman grows
weary and, at last, dies from child bearing, it matters not.
Let her die from bearing; she is there to do it."
Martin Luther (1483-1546)



With this kind of really negative attitude among the male population over the Millennia Is it really difficult to believe that the historical record of women's participation in the leadership of the Church has mostly been expunged by the "Selective memory," of the male scribes of that day. Jesus and Paul lived in a culture of male domination. This practice followed into the Church after Pentecost although some women were leaders in the synagogues in that day. A lot of Christian women were poor, but some were also wealthy: like Lydia. Women were managing their own households, which often had a lot going on like maintenance of property, running a business, managing a family along with its many responsibilities and supervision of slaves in some cases. The women greatly served the early believers by simply extended their homes in order to host the Church, which met in homes during the first and second centuries.


During the third and forth centuries as the church slowly became institutionalized, the women were displaced - then the leadership became masculine dominated. This is also the crowd who eradicated almost all traces of women in leadership from the written records. There were women in leadership before the purge took place. The best example extant is Junia mentioned by St. Paul as an Apostle. Translators “Corrected” the female name to that of Junias - the male form. There is no historical male name “Junias.“ The evidence of early Female leadership remains mostly in the fraises, mosaics, and grave markings in places like the catacombs.


Another example: There is a mosaic in a Basilica that depicts four women, Mary the mother of Jesus, Prudentiana, Praxedis, and a forth woman whose name was Theodora Episcopa - Bishop Theodora. Episcopus is the male form and episcopa is the female. It is also noteworthy that the ending letter of the word episcopa in the mosaic was partially defaced - I wonder why? As a side note, the image of Theodora had a square halo instead of a round one like the other three women, which symbolically indicated that she was still alive when the mosaic was made.


And there are more examples. I find the book “When Women were Priests” very informative as to the history of female leadership. Highly recommended.

 

[Codger]

Our negative attitude toward women in the Church comes from two hard to understand passages from St. Paul. After much reading on the subject I have concluded that in both cases he was addressing local errors in the Church and was not making a general statement for all time. Here is the first of the two questionable passages.

(Read in a mocking, sarcastic voice.)
1 Cor. 14:34-37 (KJV) [34] “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.†[35] “And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.â€

The passage then continues… Loudly...and in a rage...
[36] What?came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? [37] If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

In 34 & 35 St. Paul is quoting the words of someone in the Church probably a "Judiazer," someone from the Circumcision Party, who opposed Paul at every turn - who in judging from the text - considered himself a prophet in that local body. In vs. 36 & 37 Paul is giving an angry response in opposition to the outrageous quote of 34 & 35. Obviously he limited his comments probably because he only wanted to correct this person - not destroy him.

The following is a quote from Dr. John Gustavson.
"Professor Sir William Ramsey, the most widely accepted authority on St. Paul in the early 1900's says "we should be ready to suspect Paul is making a quotation from the letter addressed to him by the Corinthians whenever he alludes to their knowledge, or when any statement stands in marked contrast either with the immediate context or with Paul's known views."Considering Paul's views on the ministries of Priscilla, Phoebe and others referred to earlier, it is clear that Paul believed in equality of women in ministry.

Moreover, ICor 14:34,35, if taken totally literally, cannot refer to the Old Testament Scriptures when speaking of the Law for there is not one trace from Genesis to Malachi of any such prohibition of women to literally keep silent in the church nor is there a single word in the whole "law of Moses" dealing with the subject. Therefore the words, "it is not permitted" and "as also saith the Law" roust refer to some "rule outside of Scripture." There was no other but the Oral Law of the Jews appealed to by the Judaizers in the church in their efforts at that time to bring Christianity back within the confines of Judaism.

The Jewish Oral Law did teach the silencing of women. The Talmud also taught that it was "a shame for a woman to let her voice be heard among men". However, the Oral Law of the Jews is not Scripture. Again, the reference to the "law" is, of itself, sufficient to show that the Apostle who labored so earnestly to free the Christian Church from the very shadow of Judaism was not expressing his own conviction in the language attributed to him. Paul never appealed to the "law" for the guidance of the Church of Christ, but, on the contrary, declared that believers were dead to the law by the body of Christ" (Ro 7:4) that they might serve in newness of spirit and not the oldness of the letter (v.6).)"

Some translations like the KJV and the Amplified Bible insert the word What! at the beginning of vs. 36. What is the "what" there for? This is an expression of outrage at the previous verses or quotations (33-35). Verses 36 - 37 should be read with an element of anger. Verse 37 continues where he is upbrading someone who thought themselves to be a Prophet in the Church. Obviously the person he quoted in vs. 33-35. As Ramsey suggests, 1CO was probably written in response to a letter sent to him by the Corinthians.

In summary, because the quote was given in a Sarcastic tone, it simply means that the exact opposite was true because he was mimicking them and not making a statement.

The ancient Greek did not have quotation marks. I added them to Paul's quotes in vs 34 -35.

 

[Codger]

1 Tim. 2:12-15 (KJV)
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. [13] For Adam was first formed, then Eve. [14] And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. [15] Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Frank Viola in his book titled, “The untold story of the New Testament Church'” tells of the historical situation in Ephesus where Timothy was assigned. I have edited down his comments to just those of women's issues – they were very severe.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Timothy and Paul were dealing with a kind of pre-Gnostic heresy that had come into the church via the male teachers. According to gnosticism, full salvation comes through special knowledge – gnosis – that only the initiated possess. In Ephesus this is what they were teaching...[/FONT]

• [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Eve is both a mediator and redeemer figure who preexisted Adam.[/FONT]
• [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Man came into existence because of a woman, and he was given enlightenment through the woman. Since Eve was the first to take a bite from the Tree of Knowledge, she is the bearer of special spiritual knowledge (called gnosis).[/FONT]
• [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Women are called to lead people to the illuminating gnosis, which was represented by the Tree of Knowledge. Redemption completely reversed the effects of the fall so that men are no longer subject to earthly authorities and women are no longer subject to their husbands. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Those accepting this heresy preferred the leadership of women over men. Male teachers were the first to spread this heresy in Ephesus. But it finds fertile ground among the women in the Church. Remember that the first and second century Churches were home cell groups. It was impossible to address the Church all at one time. Actually women who had opened their homes to the Church had a lot of control over the cell groups in that day. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The homes of the Ephesian women provide a network by which the heresy is spread rapidly through gossip, Some of the women are teaching the heresy in the Church meetings and are lording it over (dominating) the men. They have also accepted the ideals of the “new woman” [which was the Roman equivalent of “womens lib.”] They are dressing in an immodest and exploitive way (like that of prostitutes) and are defying other accepted norms regarding marriage and family. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]There is also a problem with respect to how the widows are being cared for in the Church. Some of the widows have adopted the heresy and others have family members who are able to care for them. Still worse, some of the younger widows who decided not to remarry are acting promiscuously.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Consequently, Timothy wants to know which widows the Church ought to be responsible for. Paul wants to go back to Ephesus – but he cannot – he writes the pastoral epistle of 1 Timothy to address all these problems of which this post has not recorded all of them. In any case the situation with the women in particular was very grave and out of control.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Any one doing an in depth study of this topic may want to read the book "I suffer not a woman". It has good historic background and a thorough look at the passage of 1Timothy 2:11 15.The authors are Richard and Catherine Clark Kroeger.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]One of the difficulties with the interpretation of the afore mentioned scripture is the Greek word "Authentein" (To dominate or rule over). It is only used once in the Bible so there is no frame of reference for this word inside of scripture. Words change in meaning over the years and this is a point in Kroger's book. They believe -as does Viola - that this passage was written in answer to heretical Gnostic error, which was invading the Church. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Here is an edited commentary based on Kroegers Book.[/FONT]

“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]In light of the authentic meaning of the word "authentein" and of the social context within which Paul wrote his letters to Timothy, let me offer what I believe is an appropriate rendering of the text in Timothy. I believe Paul is saying, "I am not allowing (present tense for that situation) a woman to teach or to proclaim herself the originator of man (authentein)." Do you see how this translation offsets false doctrine?[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The word that is frequently translated "silence," "hesuchia", also means harmony, peace, conformity or agreement. I therefore suggest Paul goes on to say, "she must be in agreement," meaning agreement with the scriptures and with sound teaching in the Church.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]He continues in this vein saying, "Adam was formed first then Eve." This statement militates against the doctrine of Eve as progenitor. He also says "Adam was not deceived, but the woman was! And sinned!" This statement directly contradicts the notion that Eve was the "illuminator," and carrier of new revelation (gnosis).[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]This translation is the most legitimate because it fits the social context, is true to the Greek, speaks to the troubled situation, and lines up perfectly with all of Paul's other teachings and practices concerning women.” [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Conclusion: Paul was addressing this gnostic heresy in the Ephesian Church and if you take it literally - as a lot of people do - it suppresses women unjustly and out of the exclusive context of the Ephesian situation in Paul's day. It is also contradictory to the attitude of Paul throughout his days of ministry as he always saw women as his co-laborers in the Lord.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]A closing thought: Dr. Paul Yonggi Cho is the pastor of the largest church in the world. He said that his ministry would not be what it is today were it not for his mother-in-law and for women who were willing to pastor the many cell groups of which his church consists. He claims that 6,000 women were leading cell groups before he found the first man who was willing to do the task.[/FONT]

Women are not second class Christians. Why would anyone want to suppress over half of the Christian community?
Larry

 

[Alabaster]

Amen, Larry!

 

[theophilus3213]

1 Cor 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
KJV
1 Cor 11:7-9
7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
KJV
1 Cor 14:34-35
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
KJV
1 Tim 2:9-15
9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
KJV

These scriptures are not ambiguous, they are plain and clear! They are the Holy Spirts instructions to men and women and they are to be obeyed!

There has never been a time when a woman was a preist in judiasm. Not from the time of Aaron on down to the time that the temple was destroyed in ad 70. There never was a woman who was in charge of a synogogue. Women were strictly forbidden to speak in any synogogue. And the women and men were always seperated in the synogogues.

Jesus chose 12 men to be his desciples; note that he did not chose even one woman to be his desciple. If jesus were to believe the nonsence that is believed today, he would have chosen 6 women and 6 men to be his desciples. this he did not do!

All through out chruch history for ad 30 foward, their has never been a woman who was appointed by God to be a leader in any of His churches. Unless you think that God is double minded! I do not think that God would forbid women from speaking in the chruch, and forbid them from teaching men, and then turn around and tell women to do the oposite of that! Its complete nonsence to even thing that God, who is perfect, and who does not change would even consider doing that! Please stop negating the clear commands of Jesus by your bogus interpretations! this is a serious sin!

shaloam

 

[Elijah674]

Sure God has the role listed as Apostles & then Prophets in that order by N.T. Inspirition. But there has been recorded many places in OT & NT of female Prophetess's.
Even while Christ was on earth, there was Anna of the temple. Luke 2:36-37. Note 2Ch 34:22

And there was only one Moses, and Aaron was secondary. And Mirriam? she was a Prophetess also. Note Number 12:1-16.
And even Moses was not allowed to go in to the Promised land because of his sin.

And 1 Cor. 12:27-28 + Eph. 4:11-16 finds all of these to be in the True Virgin Fold till Christ comes again.

--Elijah

 

[Alabaster]

All through out chruch history for ad 30 foward, their has never been a woman who was appointed by God to be a leader in any of His churches. Unless you think that God is double minded! I do not think that God would forbid women from speaking in the chruch, and forbid them from teaching men, and then turn around and tell women to do the oposite of that! Its complete nonsence to even thing that God, who is perfect, and who does not change would even consider doing that! Please stop negating the clear commands of Jesus by your bogus interpretations! this is a serious sin!

Well, Phoebe was a pastor. Do not tell me she was a servant in the sense of the weaker helping the stronger--she was a pastor or servant in the sense of the strong leading the weak. The word used for servant in the scriptural passage of Romans 16:1 is "diakonos" in Greek. This word is used everywhere in the NT to designate the office of "minister". This same word is used to denote the office that Phoebe had in Cenchrea, but somehow the bias of the translators entered here and was translated as "servant"(upon encountering a female!). Both translations are correct, but the wrong connotation has been taken. Pastors indeed ARE servants! Elsewhere, wherever a minister was spoken of, if he was male, the word "diakonos" was transcribed as "minister", where "servant" is just as appropriate.

When Paul spoke of Phoebe as a helper of many as well as himself, he used the word, "prostatis", meaning "helper". In this sense, the word, "prostatis" means helping in the manner of one with authority, a master, and a leader. This word was used by Josephus in describing Caesar, one of supreme authority. A leader is a helper, and in this sense, it denotes one who helps from a place of authority and strength, not one who helps a strong person out of a place of lesser strength.