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Willie T

A man who isn't as smart as others "know" they are
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My young friend got a little Ticked-off while he was visiting our fair state. (This is from his blog.)

I just spent a week in Florida in mid 90 degree weather, sweating buckets and savoring every air conditioned moment. Throughout the course of my days in this sweltering heat I observed women from varying religious traditions ranging from Islam to conservative Christianity, dressed from head to toe in frumpy, constricting, and undoubtedly uncomfortable and unbearably hot garb. Many of the Muslim wo...men were covered from head to toe with only their eyes showing, and the Christian women wore skirts that nearly dragged the pavement, long sleeved shirts, with their hair, which they'd obviously never been permitted to cut, tied up in what must be heavy and uncomfortable buns. The men, regardless of the religious tradition, however, were dressed exactly as the other men around them. They wore comfortable shorts and t-shirts, and, when compared to their wives, blended into the crowd nicely and didn't stick out at all.

It's not my intention to criticize anyone's fashion choices or modesty standards, but rather the impositions of religion onto women and its unfair, double standards.

The things described above are mere symptoms of the much larger problem of misogyny and poor treatment of women that often accompanies religious fundamentalism. Why is it that the men are free to dress as they please, even when it includes exposed legs and arms, but the women are forced to be locked up tighter than Fort Knox? Because the woman, in many religious traditions, is seen as being nothing more than an object of sexual pleasure and release for the man. She must be hidden away and concealed, or her wily and seductive ways will cause men to come from far and wide and force themselves upon her. Of course this is nonsense, but it, in a less caricature-ish way, is believed by many religionists. Women are seen as being such seductive and sexual creatures that men simply cannot control their appetites when around one who shows more than a little eyelid, and so they must be hidden away and forced to suffer beneath the weight of bun and burqa.

While the strict modesty standards of some Christian traditions and Islam do not apply to *most* Christian believers in Western nations, the same bias exists. If you attend Christian seminars aimed at teaching kids abstinence and modesty, it will always be the young ladies who are shamed into feeling that, just simply by existing and being attractive, they are leading young men to hell. The men are encouraged to always look the other way and to fight with all they have to resist the siren songs of these foul temptresses and the girls are made to feel that their bodies and appearances are merely things that make young men lose their minds and salvation, and so are encouraged to dress modestly. The young men, however, are only told not to look but are otherwise free to continue as they were.

It seems that even in the Bible's earliest stories, God presented us with the issue of men blaming women for their failures. "The woman you gave me..."

I have an idea, though, how about we as men take responsibility for our own actions, and acknowledge the fact that a woman ought not have to hide herself so that we're not tempted to look at her? How about we realize that women are not mere objects of sexual release, but precious and beautiful humans who deserve to be treated with dignity and respect? How about we realize that, if we have a "lust problem", it is *we* who have the "lust problem"? Our weaknesses are not the faults of women.

Now, sure, Paul does instruct women to dress modestly, and sure, women ought not to, in the name of freedom, become the very things that men desire them to be. I'm not advocating for skimpy clothes or scant attire. I'm simply pointing out the tendency of religion to blame women for the problems its men face. In nearly every religious tradition it is the women involved who suffer the most. They are the ones forced to sit down, shut up and be submissive, while their husbands propagate terrible behaviors in the name of God, and act in abusive, dangerous and downright egregious ways. They are the ones forced to blindly and mutely follow whatever "vision" the "man of God", or "priest of the household" (where does that term even come from?) chooses to follow, without ever making so much as a peep. It is they who are often forced to give up precious freedoms and dreams in the name of following someone else's, and you know what? I just don't think it's right.

It is time for a new brand of Christianity, in which women are celebrated and seen as being more than *mere* "helpmates", baby machines, husband followers, and sexual objects. It's time that we celebrate who they are and what they are without the misogyny and chauvinism that can thrive unchecked in religion.

Look, I'm no "feminist" or anything, but I am weary of watching women be blamed for the Christian man's problems while being forced to say "amen" to every word he says.

Women, you, just as much as men, are the image and likeness of God (and yes, I anticipate some Pauline arguments here), and are valuable. You deserve to live, pursue your dreams, and be happy in life. Any brand of Christianity that says you can't or that blames you for the problems of men is not a brand of Christianity worth following.

Just some thoughts. #girlpower
 
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images
the one on the other thread was GOOD... :)
 
It is time for a new brand of Christianity, in which women are celebrated and seen as being more than *mere* "helpmates", baby machines, husband followers, and sexual objects. It's time that we celebrate who they are and what they are without the misogyny and chauvinism that can thrive unchecked in religion.
Yeah, right :lol And why don't we just send a man to Pluto.

No, seriously, I think this is going to be an interesting thread. I personally don't know any men in the church who want this kind of treatment of women. It's isolated in the cults. And it's hardly going to catch on.
 
Yeah, right :lol And why don't we just send a man to Pluto.

No, seriously, I think this is going to be an interesting thread. I personally don't know any men in the church who want this kind of treatment of women. It's isolated in the cults. And it's hardly going to catch on.
Well, Jeff DOES have a tendency to get a bit carried away... but there are many men in almost all our churches that carry some dinosaur genes down deep inside. (Women will know what I mean)
 
I understand some of what he (or is it she since she appears to link to her Facebook page at #girlpower?) is talking about applies to other religions or cults, but a lot of it also applies to fundamentalist Christianity. I've seen it first hand!

I especially agree with this part of the statement:

I have an idea, though, how about we as men take responsibility for our own actions, and acknowledge the fact that a woman ought not have to hide herself so that we're not tempted to look at her? How about we realize that women are not mere objects of sexual release, but precious and beautiful humans who deserve to be treated with dignity and respect? How about we realize that, if we have a "lust problem", it is *we* who have the "lust problem"? Our weaknesses are not the faults of women.

I recall posting almost the exact same thing a while ago on this forum, and I seem to recall it wasn't received very well by some either, but I still see it the same way.
 
Uh.... In the first line of the longer post, I called him, "he", and in the post above yours, I called him Jeff. I think his wife and two children might get a kick out of him being called a woman... as would his congregation. :oops
 
I understand some of what he (or is it she since she appears to link to her Facebook page at #girlpower?) is talking about applies to other religions or cults, but a lot of it also applies to fundamentalist Christianity.
'a lot'? Really? I disagree completely. If there is a problem it is that the exact opposite is going on in our churches--women wanting to be equal with men in matters that God said are not equal for men and women.


I recall posting almost the exact same thing a while ago on this forum, and I seem to recall it wasn't received very well by some either, but I still see it the same way.
The problem is, it's not right to use a few men's isolated reactions to women's immodest dress to further an agenda of equality that God himself does not advocate. It's wrong for women to assert freedoms beyond the boundaries that God set just because a couple of isolated sects within Christianity have a misguided answer to the problem of women's immodest dress.
 
Why aren't women up in arms about the church's obvious acceptance of divorce for any and all reasons? Does anyone think we'll ever see them demonstrating over that abuse in the church, of which college educated, professional women, capable of living apart from their husbands seem to be the worst offenders? Don't bet on it. We got a problem here all right, but it ain't that the church wants to put women in burlap sacks to cover up their curves.

There are so many fashionable, modest clothes for women to wear. I honestly think the problem is too many women want to wear immodest clothing. I calls 'em likes I sees 'em, folks.
 
I love women.
I know God does too.
In most of the churches I've been in through the years, it seems there are more women there worshiping God than men.
We can only speculate as to why that is, but it says to me that they love God, regardless of how they dress.
I won't judge them on their dress.

I wear shorts to church.
Some men feel that since I am exposing my legs, I am causing women to sin.
When it comes to worshiping God, that's between me and God.

They can kick me out of church, they can stone me, they can crucify me.
But when God says "come as you are", it says to me that he wants you now, just as you are, and if changes in your life need to be made, he will see that it gets done, in his time.
 
For Jethro,
Hope you're wearing your fire retardant skins.
"....wearin' clothes from a wildcat's hide."
 
My young friend got a little Ticked-off while he was visiting our fair state. (This is from his blog.)

Look, I'm no "feminist" or anything, but I am weary of watching women be blamed for the Christian man's problems while being forced to say "amen" to every word he says.

Women, you, just as much as men, are the image and likeness of God (and yes, I anticipate some Pauline arguments here), and are valuable. You deserve to live, pursue your dreams, and be happy in life. Any brand of Christianity that says you can't or that blames you for the problems of men is not a brand of Christianity worth following.

Just some thoughts. #girlpower

We have to constantly look at ourselves to see if we're living in accordance with God's will, don't we? But honestly, I see very little of this treating women as less valuable, or less committed to serving Christ today in our churches . I know that women have been treated as less than men in some Christian denominations over the years, but, as commented earlier in this thread, that's mostly confined to cults. Except for those cults, Christianity has no traditions approaching the degrading way women are treated in Islam.

Frankly, I wouldn't want weak subservient women in my life. I have been blessed by having strong, confident, Christian women in my family and church. That's not going to change.
 
I love women.


They can kick me out of church, they can stone me, they can crucify me.
But when God says "come as you are", it says to me that he wants you now, just as you are, and if changes in your life need to be made, he will see that it gets done, in his time.

:thumbsup

I believe in the early church, members even wore sandals while worshipping God, maybe even the one we call the Christ.
 
But when God says "come as you are", it says to me that he wants you now, just as you are, and if changes in your life need to be made, he will see that it gets done, in his time.
Yes. And for women--who by nature are more wired to dress for the opposite sex than men--need to make the change that you cover up the parts you used to dress in a way for men to notice. It's really that simple.
 
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The person clarifies that he isn't a feminist, but he is basicly following the modern accepted ideas of western Feminism, or third wave feminism.

The argument focuses way to much on vauge terms such as "religionists" and "Fundementalists" that its a sign of being either ignorant of standard or local practices or dogmatic to teachings he has aquired.

There are concerns over extremes and the hypocracy we see in some sect s of Christianity where women are given stricter rules and role than men, but it is far from the standard.
 
Remember guys..... Jeff was commenting on what he actually looked right at and saw. It doesn't happen at our church either, but it sure does in many mainline denominations.
 
We have to constantly look at ourselves to see if we're living in accordance with God's will, don't we? But honestly, I see very little of this treating women as less valuable, or less committed to serving Christ today in our churches . I know that women have been treated as less than men in some Christian denominations over the years, but, as commented earlier in this thread, that's mostly confined to cults. Except for those cults, Christianity has no traditions approaching the degrading way women are treated in Islam.
'Like' on this part for sure.

Frankly, I wouldn't want weak subservient women in my life. I have been blessed by having strong, confident, Christian women in my family and church. That's not going to change.
I can't like this because my personal experience with strong, confident Christian, and non-Christian women is that they are full of pride and are strong willed. Those qualities are distasteful in either sex. They just seem to be all the more inappropriate for the woman Peter describes.
 
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