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[_ Old Earth _] World-Views: Evolutionism and Biblical

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Stone-yarder

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Re: Theory of Evolution crash course/Q&A

I have had the pleasure of having discussion with many different people on this board, and thought I'd share some thoughts as to why the whole theory of evolution debate keeps going ever onward. I think its because the topic of the theory of Evolution is so bogged down with misinformation and confusion, that its becomes very hard to follow or understand in the context of Biology. There is a ton of misinformation floating around about the topic, that I felt the need to make a topic that can answer some common questions as to what the theory of evolution is.


The Theory of Evolution

The theory of evolution is the observation that organism adapt and change to their surroundings through selection pressures from one generation to the next. Those that don't adapt die and go extinct. That is about it. The theory is pretty much a well duh. What makes the theory so useful and revolutionary is not that it states that organisms adapt, but explains how they are able to adapt. Trough years of observation, Charles Darwin noticed and created the first selection pressure that became the foundation of his theory, Natural Selection.

Natural Selection

Natural selection is the mechanism Darwin named in his book "The Origin of Species". Natural selection is basically the observed concept that as long as organism are capable of surviving to procreate, they are considered fit for their environment. Those that don't survive in their ecosystems go extinct. Now natural selection is there to weed out mutations that causes noticable hindrance to an organism. However, neutral mutations and minor damaging mutations can pass from generation to the next and won't be weeded out unless something in the environment changes.


Mutations

Mutations are changes in genetic information that causes differences from each generations. Most mutations are neutral and are observable from generation to the next. Such as height, body proportion, hair color, eye color, facial features, muscle density, etc. basicly all a mutation is, is slightly changing the build or function of an organisms. For Instance we can look at breeds of dogs. We see various aspects of mutations because dogs have multiple fur patterns, colors, eye colors, body types, muscle density, endurance, health problems, jaw strength, etc. do to the specific needs of each breed, the mutations become specific to that breed.

Specieation

Specieation is where biologists draw a line in the genetic boundaries of organisms. Usually this is done when a breaded line can no longer breed with the corresponding lines, but there are exceptions of course. Organisms that share very similar and close genetic similarities can occasionally breed. Examples are Mules and Ligers which are hybrids of Horse/donkey and Lion/Tiger.

Species is a term that is from a long list of terms used in taxonomy and phylogenetic to classify organisms. The order of classification terms are Life, Domain, Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species, and sub-Species.


Anyone have any questions that they want addressed. Such as different selection pressures, what defines the difference between the taxonomical ranks, etc? :)

The theory of evolution is a religion in every sense of the word, it is humanism. It seeks to answer the four great questions of life by EXCLUDING God, period, end of story. Christianity is creation. Evolution and Christianity are bi-polar opposites they have nothing in common. Your blatent bait and switch on using evolution as a whole then swithing to micro evolution to sell it is a joke. If you came to a christian forum to honestly seek God and have questions about christianity answered then welcome. But if you came here to infect beleivers with poison then the Lord rebuke you.
 
Re: Theory of Evolution crash course/Q&A

It seeks to answer the four great questions of life by EXCLUDING God, period, end of story.

Nope. Biology and the theory of evolution make no statement about the existence and nature of God. It's just not part of their subject. As evolutionary biologist you are free to believe in God or not to believe in Him.
 
Re: Theory of Evolution crash course/Q&A

"the theory of evolution make no statement about the existence and nature of God." Exactly! Thats what evolution is all about, proving where we came from without acknowledging that God did it. Galatians 6;7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 1 Tim, 4;1 God’s Spirit clearly says that in the last days many people will turn from their faith. They will be fooled by evil spirits and by teachings that come from demons.
 
Re: Theory of Evolution crash course/Q&A

The theory of evolution is a religion in every sense of the word,
Nope, because their is no deity, no sacred rituals, No holy book ( considering that entire parts of "The Origin of Species" is actually wrong), no Holy men, no place of worship, no tithing, no prayer, etc. It has none of the characteristics of a religion, its a tested theory just like the Theory of Gravity and the theory of Relativity.
it is humanism.
No it isn't, considering that humanism is a philosophy that is concerned with the needs, morals, and rights of humans. The theory of Evolution has nothing to do with the rights and morals of man. No more than Germ theory.
It seeks to answer the four great questions of life by EXCLUDING God, period, end of story.
Nope, its just a model that explains how specific mechanics cause the adaptation and specieation of organisms. Nothing more.

Christianity is creation. Evolution and Christianity are bi-polar opposites they have nothing in common.
Considering that one is a thoery about adaptation of organisms, and one is a religion that follows the teaching of Jesus, I would expect them to be completely different.
Your blatent bait and switch on using evolution as a whole then swithing to micro evolution to sell it is a joke.
I'm sorry you don't understand the Theory of Evolution as it is actually used in Biology, and confused it with some philosophy that is not part of the actual theory.

If you came to a christian forum to honestly seek God and have questions about christianity answered then welcome. But if you came here to infect beleivers with poison then the Lord rebuke you.
And if you are just going to cause friction in my thread and lob accusations at me, then I rebuke you. :)

Do you have any specific questions about the theory that you would like to ask?
 
Re: Theory of Evolution crash course/Q&A

"the theory of evolution make no statement about the existence and nature of God." Exactly! Thats what evolution is all about, proving where we came from without acknowledging that God did it..



It seems to me that Evolution DOES make a statement concerning how things get done, by incremental steps of growth and development regardless of who does the things.
In the image of God, man makes Crystal Radio Sets, AM Radio Stations, FM Radio, then Black and White TV which "evolves" into Color TV.
Now TV is 3-D and color.


All these things which man has done, step by step, has been after he has disocvered God's Natural Laws and utilized them in order to evolve into a Technological Society.
Whether one admits a God or not, it seems reasonable that these same Natural Laws were used when life become as complex as is is today.
 
Re: Theory of Evolution crash course/Q&A

"the theory of evolution make no statement about the existence and nature of God." Exactly! Thats what evolution is all about, proving where we came from without acknowledging that God did it. Galatians 6;7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 1 Tim, 4;1 God’s Spirit clearly says that in the last days many people will turn from their faith. They will be fooled by evil spirits and by teachings that come from demons.

So you are basically saying that christians that accept scientific theories are deceived and have tirned from their faiths?
That's kinda insulting. But fortunately I can be sure God knows that I am faithfull in Him, and that's the only thing that matters.

Exactly! Thats what evolution is all about, proving where we came from without acknowledging that God did it.
The "God did it" is just not part of science. Science is not religion. Science makes no claims about God's existence, nor of His non-existence. It's not science's job to answer that question for us.
Someone mentioned the theory of gravity. That theory makes claims on how objects attract each other due to their mass and distance. It makes no statement as to how God arranged gravitiy to work the way it does. So the theory of gravity doesn't acknowledge God did it. But I never heard a christian complain about gravity being a deceit. So why does the theory of evolution get such a special treatment?
 
Re: Theory of Evolution crash course/Q&A

Nope, because their is no deity, no sacred rituals, No holy book ( considering that entire parts of "The Origin of Species" is actually wrong), no Holy men, no place of worship, no tithing, no prayer, etc. It has none of the characteristics of a religion, its a tested theory just like the Theory of Gravity and the theory of Relativity.
No it isn't, considering that humanism is a philosophy that is concerned with the needs, morals, and rights of humans. The theory of Evolution has nothing to do with the rights and morals of man. No more than Germ theory.
Nope, its just a model that explains how specific mechanics cause the adaptation and specieation of organisms. Nothing more.

Considering that one is a thoery about adaptation of organisms, and one is a religion that follows the teaching of Jesus, I would expect them to be completely different.
I'm sorry you don't understand the Theory of Evolution as it is actually used in Biology, and confused it with some philosophy that is not part of the actual theory.

And if you are just going to cause friction in my thread and lob accusations at me, then I rebuke you. :)

Do you have any specific questions about the theory that you would like to ask?

Thank you for proving my point.
 
Re: Theory of Evolution crash course/Q&A

So you are basically saying that christians that accept scientific theories are deceived and have tirned from their faiths?
That's kinda insulting. But fortunately I can be sure God knows that I am faithfull in Him, and that's the only thing that matters.


The "God did it" is just not part of science. Science is not religion. Science makes no claims about God's existence, nor of His non-existence. It's not science's job to answer that question for us.
Someone mentioned the theory of gravity. That theory makes claims on how objects attract each other due to their mass and distance. It makes no statement as to how God arranged gravitiy to work the way it does. So the theory of gravity doesn't acknowledge God did it. But I never heard a christian complain about gravity being a deceit. So why does the theory of evolution get such a special treatment?

This not about science, its about two competing world veiws/two competing religions.
 
Re: Theory of Evolution crash course/Q&A

The "God did it" is just not part of science. Science is not religion. Science makes no claims about God's existence, nor of His non-existence. It's not science's job to answer that question for us.
Someone mentioned the theory of gravity. That theory makes claims on how objects attract each other due to their mass and distance. It makes no statement as to how God arranged gravitiy to work the way it does. So the theory of gravity doesn't acknowledge God did it. But I never heard a christian complain about gravity being a deceit. So why does the theory of evolution get such a special treatment?

Right on.

The religious people have inferred that evolution theory denies that God did it, though they have no logical basis for putting those words into the mouth of people descibing how it was done, not by whom it was done.
 
Re: Theory of Evolution crash course/Q&A

This not about science, its about two competing world veiws/two competing religions.

I fail to follow your reasoning here as you accuse scientists of having a world view that ignores God, simply because they discuss the processes by which things were done.
 
Re: Theory of Evolution crash course/Q&A

Thank you for proving my point.

I'm not sure how explaining that the theory is not a religion proves your point that it is a religion. That is about all the attention I wish to give to that then.



Anyone else have any specific questions they would like answered? :)
 
Re: Theory of Evolution crash course/Q&A

I'm not sure how explaining that the theory is not a religion proves your point that it is a religion. That is about all the attention I wish to give to that then.



Anyone else have any specific questions they would like answered? :)

It lies in the fact that you admit you are your own God.
 
Re: Theory of Evolution crash course/Q&A

It lies in the fact that you admit you are your own God.
I'd like to make a final statement about this. I see the theory of evolution as just observing how organisms adapt. It doesn't impact my ideals and held beliefs on religion. I don't believe I'm my own God because with that logic, explaining how anything works or what we understand about anything can be manipulated into this kind of fallacy. Understanding basic genetics doesn't mean I follow some contrived philosophy any more then understanding how a computer works does.

I want to avoid talking about evolutionism, because in this thread, it is pointless because evolutionism is independent from the theory of Evolution.
 
actually evolution does not exclude god. to claim as such is divisive. Evolution shows gods as both reasonable and knowable. Both traits I find refreshing in Jesus and the father. Unlike "man" that tries to deceive using magic and hidden mechanisms.


God seems to have done it threwevolution. God hides nothing.
 
Nope. Biology and the theory of evolution make no statement about the existence and nature of God. It's just not part of their subject. As evolutionary biologist you are free to believe in God or not to believe in Him.

As a evolutionary biologist can you tell me if bestiality is involved in evolution of humans or not?

Also not explicitly saying or not mentioning about God does not make it "not against God". If you buy the only item in shop and suddenly your friend comes and offers a better price to the shop owner for that only product, is s/he not against you? So why is there laws against monopoly in Europe then?

Anything contrary to His Word and His Scripture is against Him.

Sent from Mobile.
 
The whole reason evolution was started is because people didnt want God telling them what to do, they didnt want to have to answer to anyone. I am not sure what God you are refering to but the God of the bible and father of my Lord jesus Christ used Creation. Read Genesis 1-4 KJV. God doesnt need a man made idea to bring things about into existance. Creation and evolution are total opposites.
 
The whole reason evolution was started is because people didnt want God telling them what to do, they didnt want to have to answer to anyone. I am not sure what God you are refering to but the God of the bible and father of my Lord jesus Christ used Creation. Read Genesis 1-4 KJV. God doesnt need a man made idea to bring things about into existance. Creation and evolution are total opposites.

Excellent! :thumbsup
 
As a evolutionary biologist can you tell me if bestiality is involved in evolution of humans or not?

Bestiality like violent and brutal behaviour, or bestiality as in sex with animals?
If it's the latter you mean I guess there's little chance that today's humans could have fertile offsprings with today's animals, even with our closest relatives in the animal realm. So it's unlikely that bestiality could have any evolutionary value.
Animal hybrids are rare but they can happen even in nature.
There are researchers that early in human evolution our ancestors may have cross bred with other apes or some of the other human-like species that existed (e.g. Neanderthal humans). So one could say early humans may have commited bestiality and today's humans are a result of it. But I'm not sure how conclusive research on that matter is, and I'm not sure we should apply the term "bestiality" to that kind of interbreeding at all.

Also not explicitly saying or not mentioning about God does not make it "not against God". If you buy the only item in shop and suddenly your friend comes and offers a better price to the shop owner for that only product, is s/he not against you? So why is there laws against monopoly in Europe then?

Evolution isn't offering any "better price" than God. They aren't offering the same category of things.
Or maybe I'm not getting your analogy....
 
Re: Theory of Evolution crash course/Q&A

Quoting myself from another thread about 1Tim 4:1

World-views

Survey: Less Than 1 Percent of Young Adults Hold Biblical Worldview
among Christians and the overall US population. Take 200 young people between 18 and 23 years of age and only one will have a Biblical World View; that's merely ½ of 1%.

What is a "Biblical World View" we may ask? As defined by the study this consists of:
  • Believing that Absolute Moral Truth exists
  • The Bible is Accurate in all of the Principles it teaches
  • Satan is a real being or force
  • A person can not earn their way into Heaven by being good or doing good works
  • Jesus Christ lived a sinless life
  • and God is the all-knowing, all-powerful, creator of the world who still rules the universe today.
In the young generation that we see today, only 1 of 200 would agree with that view. The study goes on to say that their research shows that only 9% of all Americans (from all generations) have a "biblical world-view". Among quote "born-again Christians" endquote, the study found that they were twice as likely as the average adult to have a "biblical world view." 19% of "born again Christians" believe the bible is true, that Jesus lived a sinless life, that you can't work your way into heaven, that there really is a devil, and that God has given us an understanding of Truth that is not relativism or based on the situation. These are all things that the Bible clearly teaches. Only one in five Christians believe that to be true. The idea of "basic truths" and a "biblical world-view" is being rapidly lost even among born-again Christians. And when we look at the younger generation? One in two hundred.


Discussions between members will continue to observe and comply with the Mission Statement:
ChristianForums.net aspires to provide a place where Christians can come together in fellowship for encouragement, inspiration, and strength to help build each other up and grow in our walk of faith through honest and open discussion, study, reflection, and prayer.

ChristianForums.net desires to serve non-Christians, seeking answers to questions about Christianity, by sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ so they too may acquire the hope, joy, and peace that come from fellowship with the saving grace of our Lord, Jesus Christ.
The Section known as "Christianity and Science" was formed to discuss science topics such as creation and evolution and how they relate to Christianity. The way I look at this and encourage others to as well is that this forum is a place for "Strangers" to seek refuge within our "Gates" and enjoy their peaceful habitation here. Deut 24:14, Job 31 and specifically Job 31:15,21

Heb 12:1-2 TNIV "Throwing off everything that hinders..." Includes our preconceived notions about "Why?" others may have done things and possible motivations.

Strive for peace, love God, others as self, as we together fight the good fight, yes?
 
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