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You and Me and the Roman Catholic Church

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Rollo Tamasi

Warrior for Christ
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Today is Mary Day!
Today the Roman Catholic Church celebrates the Immaculate Conception of Mary.
As I pondered this, I realized that if we are to consider Roman Catholics as our kinsmen in Christ, then we must get past this Mary issue.
Dialogue is essential.
So I thought today would be a good day to ask a Roman Catholic what this Immaculate Conception means.
With that in mind, Hanukkah is starting on Christmas Day, are we prepared to encounter Jewish people and ask them to explain their faith so that we can open dialogue with them?

It is the end times.
We don't know how close we are.
Are we doing anything about it?
How about we jump start each other?
 
Hi Allen Wynne,
I believe that most people here know that I know both Catholic and Protestant theology.

So, here goes. (I'm protestant, BTW)

Many Protestants dislike Catholics. I've always believed that this is because those on both sides of the isle misunderstand each other,
so I really appreciate your above post.

As the end times approach (and I think they are) there will most probably be a rapture at some point. In the rapture all who know Jesus the Christ will be taken immediately to be with Him. In the mix will be both Protestants and Catholics.

The Immaculate Conception:

It is believed by the RCC (I cannot speak for the Orthodox Church) that Mary was born without sin and remained without sin her entire life.
Catholics are aware of Romans 3:23, however, the reasoning is that since Jesus was pure, holy and without original sin, it would not have made sense to have Him be born of a woman stained with sin.

The CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church) paragraph no. 490 states that the Mother of the Savior was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role. She had gifts no other person has ever received from God.

The angel Gabriel announced that she was Full of Grace. Luke 1:28
It was necessary that she be wholly borne by God's Grace. She is redeemed, from the beginning, by merits of her Son.

This brings up some theological questions. For instance, when was she released from original sin? Before conception, during conception, after conception? Were her parents also immaculate?

The answer is found in the CCC, paragraph no. 491 and 492.
Her parents had original sin like the rest of all humanity.
Mary was immune from the stain of original sin from THE MOMENT of her conception. So it would seem that conception and the removal of original sin by a singular act of God happened at exactly the same moment, at conception.

To give such a consent, as to be the Mother of God, Mary would have had to be prepared in a special way, and indeed, God did do this by giving her this special gift of holiness beyond compare.

Wondering
 
Reconciliation is an understanding believers have to find on their own.

I can't concede, by faith, to RCC terms/conditions on several counts for many legitimate reasons. Doesn't mean I condemn them to possible hell.

Do I buy the Mary story as they put it, on imaginary steroid hype plucked from thin air? Nope. Never will. If they want to claim Mary sinless then by rights they'd have to make the entire lineage of Jesus' flesh likewise sinless. It's a ridiculous posture on their part and completely unnecessary.

We are never advised anywhere in scriptures that anyone was sinless other than Jesus Himself.
 
Reconciliation is an understanding believers have to find on their own.

I can't concede, by faith, to RCC terms/conditions on several counts for many legitimate reasons. Doesn't mean I condemn them to possible hell.

Do I buy the Mary story as they put it, on imaginary steroid hype plucked from thin air? Nope. Never will. If they want to claim Mary sinless then by rights they'd have to make the entire lineage of Jesus' flesh likewise sinless. It's a ridiculous posture on their part and completely unnecessary.

We are never advised anywhere in scriptures that anyone was sinless other than Jesus Himself.
No one asked you to concede.
Saved people are not going to hell.
No matter if they're Protestant or Catholic.
 
Uh, yes, the RCC does request that "all" believers bow to their every word and determination. Or else they are branded as heretics. That standard, I REJECT.
This is not true.
CCC no 1271 states:

1271
Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians,
including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church:
"For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect,
communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ;
they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers
by the children of the Catholic Church." "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity
existing among all who through it are reborn."


You won't like the wording, but, of course, they believe they are correct, just as we believe we are correct.
The only prerequisite to salvation is belief in Jesus, and both churches believe this is true.

Our conversation should end here since it is the hope of the O.P. to shed some light on end times
salvation through love for Christ and not a debate on who is right or wrong.



Never said they were.
Just confirming.

Wondering
 
This is not true.
CCC no 1271 states:

1271
Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians,
including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church:
"For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect,
communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ;
they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers
by the children of the Catholic Church." "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity
existing among all who through it are reborn."


You won't like the wording, but, of course, they believe they are correct, just as we believe we are correct.
The only prerequisite to salvation is belief in Jesus, and both churches believe this is true.

Our conversation should end here since it is the hope of the O.P. to shed some light on end times
salvation through love for Christ and not a debate on who is right or wrong.


Just confirming.

Wondering

I'd suggest your understanding is waay off. What the above refers to is only extended to "the ignorant and the uninformed." It's the RCC's way of proselytizing belivers outside their camp.

However, if ANY believer knowingly, willingly, publicly disagrees with (even a portion) of the RCC's entire body of work/findings, they are in fact officially heretics.

The findings of the Council of Trent remain firmly entrenched in RCC land.
 
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Most Roman Catholics know little about the Bible and only know what the Roman Catholic Church teaches them.
It is easy to meet them on their ground and start a conversation in love.
It is a starting point.
We must realize our efforts are for God and once the conversation starts, the Holy Spirit should take over.
But I do believe God is saying to all of us, "Go ahead, start the conversation".
 
Most Roman Catholics know little about the Bible and only know what the Roman Catholic Church teaches them.
It is easy to meet them on their ground and start a conversation in love.
It is a starting point.
We must realize our efforts are for God and once the conversation starts, the Holy Spirit should take over.
But I do believe God is saying to all of us, "Go ahead, start the conversation".

Part of the larger issues on these matters is that the "magisterium" takes a stand. Fine. Take a stand. So, they take a stand and add to the Nicene Creed "and the Son."

The first big problem arose from that stand. And, since they can do or say or claim no "wrong" only "TRUTH" in their positions, NOW they are stuck with it. And by that stand they "must" declare all opposition as heretics. And, since THEY only are right and true, they can not amend that add on or they admit they are not what they claim to be.

They made their own bed. Now it is they who must sleep in it. I have no interests whatsoever in claiming any other believer is a heretic over 3 words. To me that kind of faith is essentially worthless, and an affront to my own conscience.
 
closed
TOS 2.2
Discussion of Catholic doctrine is limited and will only be allowed in the One on One Debate Forum and End Times forum only. RCC content in the End Times forum should relate to End Times beliefs. Do not start new topics elsewhere or sway existing threads toward a discussion or debate that is may be viewed as ‘Catholic’ in nature.
 
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