[_ Old Earth _] Young Earth Science

[Ashua]

[youtube:zsxioj08]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY0VBaWYubk&feature=player_embedded[/youtube:zsxioj08]

[youtube:zsxioj08]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8VVmOBENDQ&NR=1[/youtube:zsxioj08]

[youtube:zsxioj08]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KO9TEOpqcyc&feature=related[/youtube:zsxioj08]

[youtube:zsxioj08]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byZroXt0U5o&feature=related[/youtube:zsxioj08]

[youtube:zsxioj08]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYHj4T5uyfU&feature=related[/youtube:zsxioj08]

[youtube:zsxioj08]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46x3ZmGM6tE&feature=related[/youtube:zsxioj08]

[youtube:zsxioj08]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFA3wW7Fgj4&feature=related[/youtube:zsxioj08]

[youtube:zsxioj08]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zO8L20KIg10&feature=related[/youtube:zsxioj08]

[youtube:zsxioj08]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swOtBn8NZcc&feature=related[/youtube:zsxioj08]

[youtube:zsxioj08]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jrK72tGkiE&feature=related[/youtube:zsxioj08]

 

[Barbarian]

"Dr. Hovind" has a degree from this prestegious university...

In Steve Levicoff's Name It and Frame It? New Opportunities in Adult Education and How to Avoid Being Ripped Off by 'Christian' Degree Mills he explained that while a non-accredited school is not necessarily a degree mill, he wrote that Patriot Bible University was a degree mill.[15] The college has varied its policies over the years, but it has been criticized for awarding students degrees based on questionable standards such as "life experience" or "ministry evaluation" that lack academic rigour and merit.

The university is not accredited by any recognized accreditation associations of higher learning. It is recognized by the American Accrediting Association of Theological Institutions, which has no recognition from the United States Department of Education or any other government educational organization.[16] The AAATI is itself considered an accreditation mill.[15] The group provides approval to schools for a $100 charge.[15] In 2008, it was accredited by Accrediting Commission International[17]. The ACI is again not recognized by the US Department of Education[18]. The St. Petersburg Times reported, "Alan Contreras, who heads Oregon's Office of Degree Authorization, which closely tracks schools with questionable accreditation. 'Anything accredited by ACI in Beebe, Ark., is either fake or substandard, as far as I know.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Bible_University

Not that it's totally pointless. I have a PhD in Creation Science Education from By Bayou University, and was formerly the chair of Forensic Theology for that fine institution, which seems to have gone the way of most diploma mills. The difference was, we didn't actually charge tuition.

The faculty of BBU went on to other things in various real universities around the country, and "Dr." Hovind has seven more years working for the federal government, with possible time off for good behavior.

 

[Ashua]

Pedantry and certificates are devoid of true value.

Thomas Edison had a 3rd grade education.

Hovind's 'accreditation' is irrelevant. The evidence and logic he uses is sound. If you disagree with what he is saying, explain why it is wrong. He is not wrong because of his degree status. His rightness or wrongness hinges on what he says. Anything less is straw man.

 

[Barbarian]

Pedantry and certificates are devoid of true value.

If they are issued by a diploma mill, they are.

Thomas Edison had a 3rd grade education.

Actually, he was home schooled by a brilliant mother who was herself well-educated.

Hovind's 'accreditation' is irrelevant.

If so, why did he buy a fake PhD?

The evidence and logic he uses is sound.

Like the assertion that men killed T-rex dinosaurs by "pulling off their tiny arms and letting them bleed to death?" Those "tiny arms" are larger than human arms.

Or...

Did you know the Jewish Talmud - which is not the Old Testament, that is the Torah - the Talmud teaches that non-Jews should be exterminated? According to the book Yebamoth - or however you pronounce that - 98a "All gentile children are animals." This 'Rule Ten' says, "Even the best of the gentiles should all be killed."

Here's where he got that:
http://www.revisionisthistory.org/talmudtruth.html

If you disagree with what he is saying, explain why it is wrong. He is not wrong because of his degree status. His rightness or wrongness hinges on what he says. Anything less is straw man.

Well, here's what a creationist group has to say about some of his claims:



[KENT H]:
NASA computers, in calculating the positions of planets, found a missing day and 40 minutes, proving Joshua’s long day and Hezekiah’s sundial movement of Joshua 10 and 2 Kings 20

‘CMI’: This story is an urban myth.

KENT H: I agree. This story still circulates but has never been verified.

[CMI]: CMI’s point was much stronger. First, it is demonstrably an update to an old myth long predating NASA and modern computers. Second, it is in principle not possible to find such a ‘missing day’ from the sorts of measurements in question. A statement like his above might lead people to think that one day it just might be ‘verified’.

[KENT H]:
Woolly mammoths were snap frozen during the Flood catastrophe

‘CMI’: The mammoths were buried by wind-blown silt.

KENT H: I disagree. Mammoths died a variety of ways including wind blown silt but some definitely appear to have frozen too rapidly for normal temperatures found on earth.

[CMI]: This is a subtle (presumably inadvertent) ‘misrepresentation by abbreviation’ of CMI’s position. I.e. it makes it sound like some pile of sand in the desert, v. the ice we all know is associated with mammoths. We do not deny that huge, catastrophic drops in temperature occurred, for instance. Note that Kent Hovind’s disagreement here fails entirely to engage with the main point, a point that he even quotes, namely that we are saying that the catastrophic action associated with the mammoths occurred during the post-Flood Ice Age, not the Flood.

[KENT H]: The Mammoth was not designed to be a cold weather animal.

[CMI]: This ignores the definite adaptations to cold, such as woolly coat and small surface area of ears, trunk and tail, all of which would minimize heat loss.
Answers in Genesis
http://creation.com/maintaining-creatio ... ent-hovind

Even his fellow YE creationists are embarrassed by his foolish ideas.

 

[Ashua]

Did you know the Jewish Talmud - which is not the Old Testament, that is the Torah - the Talmud teaches that non-Jews should be exterminated? According to the book Yebamoth - or however you pronounce that - 98a "All gentile children are animals." This 'Rule Ten' says, "Even the best of the gentiles should all be killed."

Yes, I did know this. I spent a great portion of my time in Messianic Judaism theology. The Talmud is not given by Moses or by God. The man-made Talmud is actually contradictory to the Torah's prescription not to add or subtract from the Law. The Talmud is never recognized by any prophet, or apostle and is outright blasted by Christ. ("Thus ye have made the word of God of none effect by teaching for doctrine, the commandments of men.")

Now, despite the talmud being trash; what of it? That is an emotional argument that has zero to do with anything. Just because your opinion of right doesn't line up with the opinion of another --much less a religion doesn't disprove God.

1.)I say "mint blue" is a hideous color.

2.)You love mint blue.

3.)Therefore I do not exist because of my perceived "bigotry" towards mint blue contradicts your "supreme" perception over my own.

That is essentially the whole of your argument.

1.)God of the Bible (The presumed creator) says that adulterers will have their part in the lake of fire.

2.)You find the punishment for adultery to be "unjust".

3.)Therefore God of the Bible does not exist because your opinion nullifies the existential properties of any such belief holder to the contrary.

straw man.

Here's where he got that:
http://www.revisionisthistory.org/talmudtruth.html

If you disagree with what he is saying, explain why it is wrong. He is not wrong because of his degree status. His rightness or wrongness hinges on what he says. Anything less is straw man.

Well, here's what a creationist group has to say about some of his claims:


[KENT H]:
NASA computers, in calculating the positions of planets, found a missing day and 40 minutes, proving Joshua’s long day and Hezekiah’s sundial movement of Joshua 10 and 2 Kings 20

‘CMI’: This story is an urban myth.

KENT H: I agree. This story still circulates but has never been verified.

[CMI]: CMI’s point was much stronger. First, it is demonstrably an update to an old myth long predating NASA and modern computers. Second, it is in principle not possible to find such a ‘missing day’ from the sorts of measurements in question. A statement like his above might lead people to think that one day it just might be ‘verified’.

[KENT H]:
Woolly mammoths were snap frozen during the Flood catastrophe

‘CMI’: The mammoths were buried by wind-blown silt.

KENT H: I disagree. Mammoths died a variety of ways including wind blown silt but some definitely appear to have frozen too rapidly for normal temperatures found on earth.

[CMI]: This is a subtle (presumably inadvertent) ‘misrepresentation by abbreviation’ of CMI’s position. I.e. it makes it sound like some pile of sand in the desert, v. the ice we all know is associated with mammoths. We do not deny that huge, catastrophic drops in temperature occurred, for instance. Note that Kent Hovind’s disagreement here fails entirely to engage with the main point, a point that he even quotes, namely that we are saying that the catastrophic action associated with the mammoths occurred during the post-Flood Ice Age, not the Flood.

[KENT H]: The Mammoth was not designed to be a cold weather animal.

[CMI]: This ignores the definite adaptations to cold, such as woolly coat and small surface area of ears, trunk and tail, all of which would minimize heat loss.
Answers in Genesis
http://creation.com/maintaining-creatio ... ent-hovind

Even his fellow YE creationists are embarrassed by his foolish ideas.

This wasnt brought up in the video. I do not know if he is 100% accurate or not. I do know that the bulk of what he says sheds doubt on what is being taught. If he is definately wrong on one point, he is wrong on that point. if he is wrong on 2 or 3 so be it. If he is right on 10 or 20 or even just 1 of his points, then that should be established. I do not say he shouldnt be called out if he is wrong. He should be called out for being wrong and also verified when he is right; as should the fanciful conjecture of science be. He called out the use of embryonics to support evolution as being a deliberate lie. it was proven wrong in the 1800's when the creator of the lie admitted to it. Its still in textbooks today. -fact

I also dont care what 1 group of creationists think over another in and of itself. I would much rather you refute his "facts" yourself or find scientists with pieces of paper that are acceptable to you; to show specifically where he is wrong of a certainty, not of opinion or interpretation.

evidence set o.j. simpson free.
evidence sent innocent men to the chair.

evidence =/=proof
evidence does not lie
evidence is not necessarily interpreted correctly.

In his debates, particularly the berkley one where he uses power point he specifically documents his information off of 'credible' scientific sources. So im very interested in how he is a "liar" when he is using the testimony of 'science' for witness.
You dont accept what Hovind says? fine. I'm more interested in the evidence than the man. The evidence that is rooted in science.

 

[jasoncran]

you could use someone who isnt in jail for tax fraud. as that would hold more weight as he claims to know christ.

 

[Ashua]

you could use someone who isnt in jail for tax fraud. as that would hold more weight as he claims to know christ.

If Einstein turned up to have been a serial killer, would Relativity be invalid?
if martin luther king jr has a thing for underaged girls, would civil rights be a false cause?
If Freud was a nazi would that defame his ideas?
If Charles Darwin believed in the inferiority of black people and women would that oh.... wait..... nevermind...


Churches are filled with sinners. There is none good. The difference between a genuine believer and joe sinner is that the believer isn't self righteous. The believer knows any "righteousness" he has is imputed by Christ. The Christian is not proud of his sin.

Yes, he shames Christ by his acts. Yes he hurts the very name he used for banner. That doesn't invalidate what he said though.

 

[jasoncran]

you could use someone who isnt in jail for tax fraud. as that would hold more weight as he claims to know christ.

If Einstein turned up to have been a serial killer, would Relativity be invalid?
if martin luther king jr has a thing for underaged girls, would civil rights be void?
If Freud was a nazi would that defame his ideas?
If Charles Darwin believed in the inferiority of black people would that oh.... wait..... nevermind...


Churches are filled with sinners. There is none good. The difference between a genuine believer and joe sinner is that the believer isn't self righteous. The believer knows any "righteousness" he has is imputed by Christ. The Christian is not proud of his sin.

Yes, he shames Christ by his acts. Yes he hurts the very name he used for banner. That doesn't invalidate what he said though.

true but when one knowingly sins like that, and is pastor, do you just let him behind the pulpit after hes opps my bad. i dont think so.

I NEITHER ACCEPT EVOLUTION NOR THE OLD EARTH, IF YOU DOUBT, ASK THE OTHERS, AND SEE THE POSTS IN THE THREAD ON WERE THE FIRST PREDATORES HERBAVORES, AND ALSO THE OTHER SCIENCE THREADS HERE.

 

[Ashua]

true but when one knowingly sins like that, and is pastor, do you just let him behind the pulpit after hes opps my bad. i dont think so.

I NEITHER ACCEPT EVOLUTION NOR THE OLD EARTH, IF YOU DOUBT, ASK THE OTHERS, AND SEE THE POSTS IN THE THREAD ON WERE THE FIRST PREDATORES HERBAVORES, AND ALSO THE OTHER SCIENCE THREADS HERE.

I agree with what you infer. When he is released (if he hasn't been already, I do not know) He should be welcomed back to the church if he has repented. He should NOT be welcomed back in the volume of authority within the church. He is a smart guy and he should be able to teach and speak, but his days of leadership should be done.

The Bible states that leaders should be pretty blameless in their ways.

 

[Pard]

If Charles Darwin believed in the inferiority of black people would that oh.... wait..... nevermind...

:biglol :biglol :biglol :rolling

totopic

It seems that ad hominum attacks will rule this topic, but would it hurt to speak against his words in this instance rather than in general?

Yosef Ben Matityahu (Flavius Josephus) is one of the biggest liars of his time... yet the same writings he lied in have greatly helped archeologists discover some of the greatest Biblical sites yet. We owe a lot to his writings, and yet if we simply were to see his flaws and deny all his writings we would know so much less about Biblical history at the time of Jesus.

And yes, Jason is rooted in the truth the Bible tells, he is no evolutionist

 

[jasoncran]

Ashua, would it hurt for hovind to get an actually acreditation?

i mean he isnt the only one that teaches young earth? i listen to an acredited yecr. and he even teaches at a local community college.

 

[Ashua]

Ashua, would it hurt for hovind to get an actually acreditation?

i mean he isnt the only one that teaches young earth? i listen to an acredited yecr. and he even teaches at a local community college.

It would help of course.

I do not think that it is necessary though.


A lot of famous televangelists and 'mega church' preachers have doctorates of divinity.

So when I hear "Dr." this or "Dr." that in context of a preacher I just shake my head. As if the Holy Spirit is poured out especially on those with Ph.D's.

At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. -Matthew 11:25

For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. -1 Corinthians 3:19

Even so, intelligence is not found in paper, nor is it unique to those who have obtained it. I dare say "higher education" has much affect on intelligence at all (although it certainly stimulates it)

You have 2 people

1. Johann Elert Bode
2. a 10 year old girl.

Both of these people can tell you the approximate distance of earth to the sun.

Bode knew based off of his intelligence. He generated the path to the answer. He was intelligent and by it, acquired knowledge. No degree or institution showed him this.

The girl knows because it was spoon fed to her in school. Polly want a cracker? She possesses only knowledge. Except the institution, she would not know this.

If you have enough intelligence, the paper has a diminishing return, beyond the praises of men.

Hovind is not just some guy off the street. He IS intelligent. He DID teach professionally.

Still, there is advantage in the degree. Having it is better than not having it. If it wasn't so. I wouldn't be working on my own degree now.

All I'm saying is his lack of a formally 'accepted' doctorate doesn't justify the call for incompetence. Is there any doubt here that if he tried he would not get the 'accredited degree' from a *cough* legitimate institution?

Once again, I call on Edison. It was refuted that Edison's mother, being herself an educated woman home schooled him.

Does Edison's mother count as an "accredited" institution?

 

[jasoncran]

i know that, but since HE isnt an inventor but a teacher, it helps.

one can be knowledgable and not have a degree, that is the truth, but he may be more effective if there was an certification,

having said that, would you want me,a layman , and have some medical knowledge and training cutting you open and doing surgery?

 

[Pard]

having said that, would you want me,a layman , and have some medical knowledge and training cutting you open and doing surgery?

Don't you think that is a little unfair of a question, Jason?

This man has a PhD (questionable) and is arguing about creation. A man needs no PhD to speak about the Bible, we are given the greatest knowledge in the world when we confess Christ. No college knowledge can ever match the wisdom we can receive through the Holy Spirit when we simply ask it.

An MD requires a college degree in medicine. The Holy Spirit doesn't generally grant us wisdom in medical fields...

 

[Ashua]

i know that, but since HE isnt an inventor but a teacher, it helps.

one can be knowledgable and not have a degree, that is the truth, but he may be more effective if there was an certification,

having said that, would you want me,a layman , and have some medical knowledge and training cutting you open and doing surgery?

That's not at all the same thing.

Medical science is a discipline--both a science of knowledge and an art in surgical skill.
Now if Hovind was going around trying to design sky scrapers, your analogy would work.

The claims of evolution and old Earth are based off of conjecture and interpretation of evidence. It is in no ways proven and as I said, Hovind uses quite a bit of "accredited" scientific documentation in his arguments. He also makes physical observations no different than they do.

We know for a certainty much of how the body works and how pathogens and drugs work. That is not conjecture it is a discipline and skill rooted in mass amounts of bona fide knowledge.

Hovind is to accredited PH.D
as
Evolution is to scientificly PROVEN fact

 

[jasoncran]

having said that, would you want me,a layman , and have some medical knowledge and training cutting you open and doing surgery?

Don't you think that is a little unfair of a question, Jason?

This man has a PhD (questionable) and is arguing about creation. A man needs no PhD to speak about the Bible, we are given the greatest knowledge in the world when we confess Christ. No college knowledge can ever match the wisdom we can receive through the Holy Spirit when we simply ask it.

An MD requires a college degree in medicine. The Holy Spirit doesn't generally grant us wisdom in medical fields...

no. if we have the truth, can we not understand the arugment of both sides and also use evidence that does exists to prove our case. and acknowledge what we dont know.

do we really know or will ever know how the lord did it to the t.no, but even yecer except evo on the micro scale.

that being said these are the various sub species of man

h.ergaster.h sapiens sapiens, h.neanderthalis, and also homo ergaster.

having said that how can he conduct research,

which is more credible to you a man that reaserch the cure for some mutation that supports evo and states that he doesn't accept evo and shows the evidence to that, which can be peer reviewed.

 

[jasoncran]

ashua, let me state this. most yecer do accept micro evolution

if you doubt that then go to icr, the aig sites and a host of others, does hovind beleive that, if not he needs to look at the evidence for creation more closely.

 

[jasoncran]

perhaps we should observe another poster here who has a science background and doesnt not have any faith in evo. he has been here a while, longer then me.

theres more then one way to skin the cat of evolution.

 

[Ashua]

ashua, let me state this. most yecer do accept micro evolution

if you doubt that then go to icr, the aig sites and a host of others, does hovind beleive that, if not he needs to look at the evidence for creation more closely.

I accept it too. Hovind accepts it also (he objects to the phrase but agrees with the concepts)

We have various races in humanity

We have hundreds if not thousands of breeds of dogs.

But you know, a human is still a human.

All dogs can breed with each other.

As Genesis states, all things come after their own kind.

There is a limit on the variance. A dog will always conceive a dog and a human will always conceive a human.

 

[jasoncran]

but a poodle with a poodle with never get the wolf back.

that being said, i listen an acredited scientist that doenst accept evo(he is a chemist but has done work with the famous sickle cell trait) and told me why that aint so beneficial and listed the other illness that kill or seriously sicken(if thats a word) the patient, all for a 25% reduction in the rate of catching malaria.