Your View of the Rapture

[Loser For Jesus]

This is always an interesting subject.

More importantly than just answering the poll question, though, here's another one. Do you think your view of the "Rapture" affects your Christian life in any practical way?

love in Christ,
Malcolm

 

[Mike01075]

Boy did you pick a topic.....whew.

. Do you think your view of the "Rapture" affects your Christian life in any practical way?

I really do not dwell on the subject very much. I feel that now is what matters in your relationship with the Lord. If you take your eyes off what needs to be done right now and look to rapture, you may trip up and not get these things accomplished. The way i figure it, if God continues to do His will through me and I stay in Him everyday, my ears will be in tune to His voice for future endeavors where ever He leads me, lifts me, or removes me

To answer the other question, I had thought that the Rapture would happen at the begining of the tribulation, not before or during.

Great topic though, you just gave me a bible study topic for the week :

 

[Loser For Jesus]

It's interesting that, at this point, no-one has voted for "Pre-Trib" yet!

love in Christ,
Malcolm

 

[Atonement]

As I also see that many people are polling that the rapture happeneds after the Tribulation!! What verses are you taking this from so I can compare notes?


God Bless

 

[Loser For Jesus]

1 Cor 15:51-52 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Rev 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets."

Scripture seems fairly clear that the Rapture will happen on or slightly before the seventh trumpet.

1 Th 4:15-17 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

The Rapture does not preceed the second coming of Jesus Christ. It will not be a quiet event where people just disappear and no-one knows why. It will be an earth-shattering event accompanying the return of Jesus in His splendour and glory.

love in Christ,
Malcolm

 

[Atonement]

that's a thought

 

[Invictus427]

Revelation3:10
Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

In Greek, the word "from" is "ek", meaning "out of". So if looked at, God promises to keep believers, out of, not through the Tribulation.

Another thought, before I discovered this, was, the Tribulation is a time for God's wrath and His judgement. As His children, who have hopefully believed and trusted in Him, why would He want to pour out such terrible wrath and judgement? Jsut a question that I wonder about...

 

[Loser For Jesus]

Mat 24:27-31 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather. 29 "Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' 30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Again, the "Rapture" seems to be very clearly linked with the return of Jesus and with the "trumpet call."

So will Jesus return before the Tribulation? Or will He have a third coming after His second coming?

love in Christ,
Malcolm

 

[Matthew518]

Mat 24:27-31 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather. 29 "Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' 30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.Again, the "Rapture" seems to be very clearly linked with the return of Jesus and with the "trumpet call."So will Jesus return before the Tribulation? Or will He have a third coming after His second coming?

I'd like to tie this all together by quoting Mt 24:34.... This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

"This generation" refers to the generation then living at the time Jesus spoke these words.

These words that Jesus spoke were meant for those who heard the message first some two thousand years ago. To take the words of Jesus and remove them from it's historical setting and context is not using proper biblical hermeneutics. Was Jesus telling them something that wasn't meant for them in their lifetime? Why would He tell them about these events if they were only meant for some generation thousands or years into the future? He wasn't teaching them about human flesh coming out of their graves either. (the so-called rapture)

Jesus to His twelve disciples (who were standing in front of Jesus):

Matthew 16:27-28, "For the Son of man is about to come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they have seen the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

Mark 8:38 - 9:1, "…when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels....there are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they see the kingdom of God having come in power. "

Luke 9:26-27, "... when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels…there are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they have seen the kingdom of God. "

Notice how Jesus said that some of his disciples, who were standing right there in front of him, would not physically die by the time He came with his angels to reward every man according to his works (Revelation 22:12). John was one of these men who lived to see it...as you can see by the following verse...

Jesus to Peter:

John 21:22-23, "...If I (Jesus) desire him (John) to abide till I come, what is that to thee?" [John was one of the twelve apostles who was never martyred, and abided on earth well after 70AD. Therefore, John did abide until Christ came in 70AD, just like Jesus desired him to!]

Everywhere the scripture talks about the Lord's coming it gives us a time statement. The New Testament saints fully expected the Lord to come in their lifetime. How could we possibly miss this? Yet the majority of believers today, some two thousand years later, are still saying that the Lord will return soon. Can the same event be imminent at two different periods of time separated by two thousand years?

 

[Atonement]

You say that this happened two thousand years ago right? This so called thing called the rapture? Lets look at Matthew 24 as you would like to add here.

In 1948 Israel became a nation. Is this the fulfillment of Matthew 24:32, which speaks of the fig tree blossoming. When Israel became a nation -- May 14, 1948 -- that's when the fig tree blossomed! How do I know that Israel is the fig tree? The law of first mention. When anything is mentioned the first time in Scripture, it becomes that throughout God's Word. For instance, Joel 1:7 tells us that when the enemy armies were invading Israel, He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree [Israel). Then, of course, Hosea 9:10 says, I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree. Here, again, God is speaking to Jews. Thus, the fig tree is Israel.

That did not happen two thousand years ago. The Bible was written over a period of some 1,500 years, from around 1450 B.C. (the time of Moses) to about 100 A.D. (following the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The Book of Revelation is the youngest book of the New Testament, written about 95 A.D. The oldest Book in the NT is Probably the book of James, written as early as A.D. 45.

Israel will be born in one day. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him (Zechariah 12:9,10). Zechariah 13:1 says, In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness. That day was May 14th 1948. Not two thousand years ago!

A highway has just been built from the Far East to the Middle East.
The oriental armies are going to march across that highway on their trek down to the Middle East (see Revelation 16:12; Daniel 11:44).

Also notice the ten toes (Daniel 2) and ten horns of the beast (Daniel 7) represent the ten nations that will unite together at the endtime to form the revived Roman Empire. These ten nations must be nations that were part of the original Roman Empire.
It all started with Belgium, Holland, Luxembourg (1948); then Italy, France, West Germany (1957); next, England, Ireland, and Denmark (1973). And finally, Greece (1981) was added to make ten nations. But the problem is that Denmark and Ireland do not belong, because they were not a part of the original Roman Empire. So there must be others coming in. That's why we presently see it as twelve nations, counting Portugal and Spain, because two are going out.
We could get into all the ramifications, but the point is, when there are exactly ten nations that were all part of the original Roman Empire, that is when Christ will return. When there are ten -- the final ten, after all the changes have been made -- then shall the God of heaven set up His kingdom. It shall never be destroyed. That's when He comes as KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS (Revelation 19:16).

That also did not happen 2 thousand years ago.

 

[Matthew518]

Atonement..... I appreciate your post and I would have to say that if you are reading your Bible from the Dispensationalist viewpoint, then I can understand why you believe like you do. I used to believe exactly the same way you believe until as recently as a year ago I have come to accept the full preterist view of the scriptures and true biblical teaching. I don't have to much time to divide up the quotes in your post so what I'd like to do is share with you a portion of an article written by a friend of mine that relates to your post. It has to do with God's true Chosen people according to the scriptures.

Is present Israel a fulfillment of prophesy? Part 1

One of the most common assertions of the premillennial dispensationalist today is that the formation of the State of Israel in 1948 is proof that the Jews are still "God's Chosen People," and that He still has prophetic plans for them. (This has been asserted more vigorously than ever due to the recent hostilities in the Middle East). It is claimed that God was at work bringing the Jews back to their "ancient homeland," and that they have a Biblical right to claim Palestine as their own. Are these claims correct? Was the formation of the State of Israel evidence of God's blessing? Of God's election?

Just what Scriptures do dispensationalists use to support these claims? How do they come to their conclusions? As you may know already, the dispensationalist uses what he calls a "literal hermeneutic." That is, he claims to interpret the words of the Bible at face value, understanding them in their "normal," everyday usage and meaning. This extremely literal hermeneutic is then used to "interpret" the prophecies of the Old Testament that speak of the return of God's people to the Holy Land. However, this literalism is also used as an excuse to ignore the plain reinterpretation by the New Testament writers of these very same prophecies. Even when the inspired writers of the New Testament give a meaning to the Old Testament. prophecies other than a "literal" one, the dispensationalist will say that this is not the complete meaning, and that these prophecies "remain to be realized for Israel."

One of the Scriptures the dispensationalist claims was fulfilled by the 1948 formation of the State of Israel is found in Ezekiel 36-37. This prophecy was given to Ezekiel during the Babylonian captivity (Ezekiel 1:1-2), and foretold the eventual return of Israel to their land. Tied in with this prophecy was the prediction of the coming Messiah, Ezekiel 38, and the inauguration of the New Covenant. As we know from both secular history and the New Testament, the people did return to the land and the Messiah did come and establish the New Covenant, Matthew 26:28. Despite this, dispensationalists deny fulfillment of either of these prophecies, saying they found only a "partial fulfillment" in Israel's return and Christ's first advent. They further allege that the re-gathering of Jews to form the current State of Israel is part of the final fulfillment. They say the blessings of the "Palestinian Covenant" are only now coming into existence. The promises of such passages as Deuteronomy 30 are touted as "Scriptural basis" for Israel's re-gathering. How should we answer such claims?

According to Deuteronomy 30:1-8, a necessary condition for the re-gathering of Israel to Palestine was returning to the Lord (verses 2-3). Based on this clear passage of Scripture, it can be definitely concluded that the State of Israel, which now exists, was not formed as a result of the blessings of this covenant (the "Palestinian Covenant" of the Scofield Bible).

The Jews of 1948 (except for maybe a few isolated individuals) did not turn to the Lord. And, to base the formation of Israel upon their alleged "faithfulness" to Judaism is to betray a fundamental misunderstanding of what Judaism is. Some think the Jew of today has a special advantage, perhaps even salvation without Christ, because they believe in the God of the Old Testament, and follow the Old Testament religion. This overlooks the fact that the religion of the Old Testament was based on making sacrifices for sins (Leviticus 17:11). It also ignores the statements of the New Testament that there is absolutely NO salvation outside Christ (John 14:6; Acts 4:10-12), and that the Old Testament religion was no longer efficacious (Hebrews 7-10). The Lord of the New Testament is Jesus. This revelation casts light on who the Lord of the Old Testament is. For example, Peter quotes Joel 2:32 as being fulfilled in Jesus (Acts 2:21).

What shall we answer when the dispensationalist claims the existence of the State of Israel today is "proof" of God's covenant blessing upon them? With the clear backing of Scripture, we can say, "NO!" We can then point to Deuteronomy 30:1-8 as proof that the Israel of today is definitely not the Israel of the Bible! But, what about the land promised to Abraham?

I'll continue with part 2, tomorrow....

mt518

 

[Atonement]

I'm sorry, but there is to much on this thread that I don't agree with, for myself to state everything that was posted. We will just have to agree to disagree.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[Atonement]

Just wanted to respond also with this in mind..

Old Testament Signs of the End Times:

* Horseless Carriages or Automobiles (Nahum 2:3,4)
* Airplanes (Isaiah 31:5)
* Desert blossoming as a rose (Isaiah 35:1)
* Alignment of ten nation westren confederacy (Daniel 2,7)
* Knowledge explosion (Daniel 12:4)
* Great increase in travel (Daniel 12:4)

* False Christs and False Prophets (Matthew 24:5,24; 2 Peter 2:1)
* Wars and rumors of wars (Mark 13:7; Matthew 24:6)
* Famines, earthquakes in divers places, pestilences (Luke 21:11)
* Iniquity aboundin (Matthew 24:12)
* Gospel of the Kingdom preached to all the world (Matthew 24:14)
* Signs in the sun, moon, and the stars, sea and waves roaring (Luke 17:26-30; 21:25-27)
*Introduction of evil spirits which control cults and false religions (1 Timothy 4:1,2)

We now have television that can tell the whole world about the Kingdom of God, never before in history did we have such a great tool to witness about the Kingdom. We have a great increase in knowledge in the past 25 years, then what we have had in three decades together.

We have cloning/ stem sell research which will be the image of the beast found in Revelation. We have satellites, space stations, and hubles telescopes in space giving us new insights to space which was never done before in history. We also have computers in almost every home today with the knowledge at our fingertips. Which is where you probably found that article that you posted. This does not include forensic investigations, the medical field and the research they now have. Also it must be known that in the last 50yrs we have had a wide spread of many new and old diseases that are now around.

So in close we have all the ingredients that the Bible talks about for the End Times. People want to believe that this all took place a thousands of years ago. The gospel has only been around for two thousand years. How could it be preached to the entire population of billions of people in that time period with out television? There was no way!!

This could also relate to the rise of a new world order which will turn the entire economic world into one currency. This is now being talked about in the European Nation. Just pick up any world newspaper and read the headlines sometime. One can see for themself that it's the end of days. And if one wants to deny that, then they are denying all the proof that's around proving other.

 

[Guest]

Atonement...... Jesus said he would come, while some that were standing there were still living; in that generation;soon; quickly; at hand, has drawn near; he said his coming was near. Everywhere the scripture talks about the Lord's coming it gives us a time statement. The New Testament saints fully expected the Lord to come in their lifetime. How could we possibly miss this? Yet the majority of believers today, some two thousand years later, are still saying that the Lord will return soon. Can the same event be imminent at two different periods of time separated by two thousand years?
Someone said to me that they felt that the Lord said he was coming soon because he wanted every generation to be watching for Him. Think about that. What that means is that when he told the first century believers that he was coming back soon, he really didn't mean it; he was giving them false information to keep them looking for Him. Can you live with that? If that was the case, what else did he tell them that wasn't true? Do we have a God who intentionally deceives men? Isn't it much easier to simply believe what Jesus said and believe that he came back in the first century, just like everyone said he would?

What is at stake here is the inspiration of Scripture. If Jesus was mistaken, or if he lied to us, then what good is the rest of the scripture? There are those opponents who say that if you believe that Jesus came back in the first century then you don't need to read your Bible any more. I don't understand that argument, but if Jesus didn't come back in the first century when he said that he would, then you might as well throw your Bible out, because if it isn't inspired it isn't any good. I believe that the scripture is the inspired Word of God and therefore without errors.

What is really frightening about this, is that, in our culture, thinking is not really that important. Do you realize this? We are not so concerned about thinking as we are about two other things, emotion and pragmatism. We're concerned about feelings, and we're concerned about success. We're not so concerned about thinking. People don't ask the question, 'is it true, is it right'? They ask the question, 'does it work' and 'how will it make me feel?'. Emotion and pragmatism. This is tragic, especially because it has taken over the Christian Church.

mt518

 

[Atonement]

Quote:
"Everywhere the scripture talks about the Lord's coming it gives us a time statement"

Here are a few scriptures that I think you need to re-read

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.


For we shall know the times by the evidence that we now live in. See you keep quoting false information from someone who knows very little about Bible Prophecy. If you would take all the evidence that I have not only provided here on this thread but on this forum and combine it all together how can YOU Miss it? This is someone who does not believe in the rapture, and therefore that is the christians blesseded hope. This topic was for us to see when the rapture was gonna happen Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, and Post-Trib. You have come here off topic and try to provide evidence that is taking out of scripture context and say look this happen two thousand years ago. That's foolish on the readers part for not grabbing more evidence before they make a false judgment! So since this has gone off topic. I will lock this post but you can start a new thread with your views. Thank you

 

[BB1956]

This is always an interesting subject.

More importantly than just answering the poll question, though, here's another one. Do you think your view of the "Rapture" affects your Christian life in any practical way?

love in Christ,
Malcolm

I have found no rapture in the scriptures. Some try to say that Paul is talking about a rapture at 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 but Paul is talking about the resurrection in those scriptures, not a rapture.