You're not blessed because you don't tithe.

[Edward]

It dont worry me who gives what and how much, its not my business, you could give 100%. I just have compassion some people are blind and giving to the wrong person who is really a thief.wrong

Amen Brother (and welcome!). When I was married, my wife did not like for me to give to the church. She said that we'd probably just be making a payment on the pastors Cadillac. I understand the concern about the money may be misused and go to really help the poor...but is that really our business? We're not there to judge the pastor. If the man does misuse the money...that's between him and God, isn't it? That we made the tithe or offering is the main responsibility for us and not to be distracted by the trying to find an honest church etc..

Does that make sense brother?

Nevertheless, my wife does have a good heart and wouldn't hesitate to give to people directly on the street who clearly needed it.
One time we were driving and she suddenly started to turn around. She had seen a man walking in bare feet and it was pretty cold out. She bought the man a pair of shoes and socks and he was ecstatic about it.

I saw that as just as good as putting it in the church plate.
One time I seen a girl standing with a sign so pulled over and waved a bill at her and she came over and got it. As I drove away I saw in my mirror her wave the BF over and he came scootin' up on his bike and took the money. I was slightly disgruntled at that. Where I thought I was helping a (probable) single mother, I saw the money go to a young man who looked totally capable of working. So there's no hard and fast safety in going directly to the street and giving, that might be a scam too.

So give how you are comfortable giving, but don't let the potential dishonesty in the world stop you from giving altogether.

 

[King Dan of Great the 1st]

Amen Brother (and welcome!). When I was married, my wife did not like for me to give to the church. She said that we'd probably just be making a payment on the pastors Cadillac. I understand the concern about the money may be misused and go to really help the poor...but is that really our business? We're not there to judge the pastor. If the man does misuse the money...that's between him and God, isn't it? That we made the tithe or offering is the main responsibility for us and not to be distracted by the trying to find an honest church etc..

Does that make sense brother?

Nevertheless, my wife does have a good heart and wouldn't hesitate to give to people directly on the street who clearly needed it.
One time we were driving and she suddenly started to turn around. She had seen a man walking in bare feet and it was pretty cold out. She bought the man a pair of shoes and socks and he was ecstatic about it.

I saw that as just as good as putting it in the church plate.
One time I seen a girl standing with a sign so pulled over and waved a bill at her and she came over and got it. As I drove away I saw in my mirror her wave the BF over and he came scootin' up on his bike and took the money. I was slightly disgruntled at that. Where I thought I was helping a (probable) single mother, I saw the money go to a young man who looked totally capable of working. So there's no hard and fast safety in going directly to the street and giving, that might be a scam too.

So give how you are comfortable giving, but don't let the potential dishonesty in the world stop you from giving altogether.

I understand what your saying but i will ask this question.

Why do you need a mediator and why do you give your offering to a mediator other than Christ. If i got this scripture correct going from the top of my head "For there is only one mediator between God and man, that is the man Jesus Christ.". You give to someone else as a mediator for your works. Your wife gave direct to Jesus and put shoes on his feet and you gave direct as well.

Sorry i know you do your best i dont want to sound mean im just looking for answers brother.

 

[Edward]

I understand what your saying but i will ask this question.

Why do you need a mediator and why do you give your offering to a mediator other than Christ. If i got this scripture correct going from the top of my head "For there is only one mediator between God and man, that is the man Jesus Christ.". You give to someone else as a mediator for your works. Your wife gave direct to Jesus and put shoes on his feet and you gave direct as well.

Sorry i know you do your best i dont want to sound mean im just looking for answers brother.

I don't need a mediator. My point was that one does not need to worry if the pastor is honest or not. Give anyway and if it's misused that's between them and God.

My Wife's method was indeed a sound method of giving. Saved the man time and red tape for acquiring his needs by cutting out the middleman (church).

But if giving on the street seems safer from abuse than giving to the church, it's not.
Ask away Brother, no offense taken. The bottom line is that there is no way to give without the potential for deception whether in church or on the street, but this shouldn't stop anyone from giving.

 

[King Dan of Great the 1st]

I don't need a mediator. My point was that one does not need to worry if the pastor is honest or not. Give anyway and if it's misused that's between them and God.

My Wife's method was indeed a sound method of giving. Saved the man time and red tape for acquiring his needs by cutting out the middleman (church).

But if giving on the street seems safer from abuse than giving to the church, it's not.
Ask away Brother, no offense taken. The bottom line is that there is no way to give without the potential for deception whether in church or on the street, but this shouldn't stop anyone from giving.

I like what you and your wife did. I think its great. And think about this way, giving direct, even your wife gave and the man was happy and you gave and a wolf maybe rip you off, think about how many people would have taken advantage of Jesus, my point is, at least your walking in his shoes rather than giving to the same collection plate each week not knowing where its going, even that is between them and God.

 

[Edward]

I like what you and your wife did. I think its great. And think about this way, giving direct, even your wife gave and the man was happy and you gave and a wolf maybe rip you off, think about how many people would have taken advantage of Jesus, my point is, at least your walking in his shoes rather than giving to the same collection plate each week not knowing where its going, even that is between them and God.

Yep. I have to admit that giving on the street direct is probably safer than giving it to the plate if one is worried about misuse. On the street, one can talk to the man and observe body language and so forth, gather more information.

But I do also feel as if giving to the church is important too because it's the body and chances are good that they do help people. My church is a big church and has many outreach programs and help a lot of people (me too!). I have confidence in my church for several reasons. The Holy Spirit is there, they keep donation boxes out front, food pantry out back and are well known locally for helping the community. Another thing is, they don't pass the plate and to my recollection, have never asked for money from the pulpit. They just keep locked donation boxes in several locations around the church and have faith. I like their system and give worry free with confidence.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

One time I seen a girl standing with a sign so pulled over and waved a bill at her and she came over and got it. As I drove away I saw in my mirror her wave the BF over and he came scootin' up on his bike and took the money.

I now honestly think that the truly, sincerely needy people among us are not standing on street corners with signs advertising their plot. It may have been that way at one time in our US history, but not anymore.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

In the OT times it was ours and we tithed 10%.

It took me a minute to see what you're actually saying here.

I thought you were saying the tithe was ours--which it is was two out of every three years. I haven't done an intense study on it, but it looks like the old covenant person who tithed ate his own tithe, but every third year gave the tithe to stock up the storehouse of supply for the Levites and the poor (Deuteronomy 14:22-29 NIV). So, if I'm correct, the leadership of the church that wants to teach Biblical tithing needs to tell the flock that they only give the tithe to the church one out of every three years, and eat it themselves the other two. Okay, pastors, who wants to step up to the plate on that one?

I believe you teach people to give generously and without grudging by nurturing the love of God in them and teaching them how to love others. Paul said that when we love others we fulfill the law of Moses (Romans 13:8-10 NASB). What that means is when we reach out to help people in need because we care about them and the plight they are in we are in fact fulfilling and upholding the commands of the law of Moses to not be tight fisted toward the needy among us (Deuteronomy 15:7-8 NASB). That's how we 'keep' the law of Moses through the new way of the Holy Spirit, and not the old way of the written word (Romans 7:6 NIV).

For us new covenant NT believers...it's all the Lords. That is scriptural.

It's not scriptural the way the church teaches it.
When Ananias and Sapphira sold the field they owned, Peter said to them, "Didn't (the land) belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? " (Acts 5:4 NIV). Why didn't he explain to them how everything is the Lord's and that's why they owed the money to the church?


As far as giving money to a church, Paul tells us that we "must share all good things" with those who have instructed us (Galatians 6:6 NIV). Maybe pastors instead of threatening the flock with the curse of the ungiven tithe should start making a real concerted effort to actually feed their flock who will in turn gladly share "all good things" with those who have fed them. Can pastors find the faith to depend on this Biblical method of providing for the administration of the church? That doesn't mean they don't ask for support. It means they make sure the flock gets fed and out of cheerful duty the flock will then gladly support him and the administration of the church.

 

[JohnDB]

Annanias and Saphira lied. When a vow was made to God it had to be kept. There was no going back. People were cautioned on this point...often.

The Covenants may differ in execution but the heart objectives are still the same because what is holy has not ever changed.
Dealings with the holy is serious business. Never ever treat holy as common. Every time in the Bible that sort of behavior was met with horrible fates.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Annanias and Saphira lied. When a vow was made to God it had to be kept. There was no going back. People were cautioned on this point...often.

The Covenants may differ in execution but the heart objectives are still the same because what is holy has not ever changed.
Dealings with the holy is serious business. Never ever treat holy as common. Every time in the Bible that sort of behavior was met with horrible fates.

The point I was making from the account was the land did not belong to the Lord insofar as that they owed the sale of the land to the Lord (via the church). Peter explains it was their's before and after they sold it, and that they were free to do with it what they wanted. The issue of whether they vowed it to the Lord is not clear (Peter's words seem to defeat that suggestion). What is clear is all they had to do was freely admit they were keeping some of the proceeds from the sale of the land for themselves. No sin there. Lying about it, perhaps in an effort to appear righteous(?) was a sin.

 

[JohnDB]

Exactly.... Holy must be treated with respect.... A very healthy dose.

But just like Akan when he took the things from Jericho (in Joshua) these introduced sin to a new start.

Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom....for good reason.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Exactly.... Holy must be treated with respect.... A very healthy dose.

But just like Akan when he took the things from Jericho (in Joshua) these introduced sin to a new start.

Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom....for good reason.

I'm not getting your point.
Ananias and Sapphira. were free to do whatever they wanted with the land and the money from it. It was not a sin to keep it. It did not belong to the Lord in the sense that 'everything belongs to the Lord, and that's why we have to give some of it back'.

 

[JohnDB]

Holy things are not static. The universe is holy. God is holy of the holy of the holy. A level of purity and goodness that actively destroys all error by nature.

So when anyone or anything crosses a line of "common Grace" it is instantly removed from existence. Such was the fate of Annanias and Saphira. Even looking at God's things was dangerous if you weren't supposed to... Never mind touching them...and stealing them? Ha!!!

The whole universe exists to extol God's glory and honor. It isn't forgiving like God is or mankind might be. The universe demands purity. The Levites had to obtain holy of holy status just to enter a copy of God's house...and touch a copy of his throne (aka Ark of Covenant).

Now with the advent of the Holy Spirit given freely among men...be very careful. And their deaths were to testify to this fact.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Even looking at God's things was dangerous if you weren't supposed to... Never mind touching them

Yes, that was not possible under the old covenant. Thankfully we see and touch all these things in this New Covenant. What was once forbidden--that is, not possible--in the old covenant has been opened up for us and made possible for us in this New Covenant. That's one of the lessons we take away from Isreal's experience with the first covenant. The first covenant showed us our separation and distance and isolation from God. The New Covenant destroys that barrier. The New Covenant allows us to touch that which was once forbidden for a man to touch and live.

and stealing them? Ha!!!

Ananias and Sapphira did not steal from God. That was my whole point. Peter said they were free to do whatever they wanted to do with THEIR land and the proceeds of the sale of that land. This directly contradicts common church teaching that 'it's all the Lord's, and for that reason we're sinning if we hang on to all of it and don't give it back to God'. When, actually, what the truth is, we are sinning if our lack of love causes us to hang on to all of it.

 

[JohnDB]

The stealing reference was to something the OP keeps talking about.

The point is that if someone you are acquainted with gave you 5 million dollars free and clear how would you react to that person? Especially if their only stipulation was that you tell others where your wealth came from?

If they suggest that you be a generous person with your new found wealth wouldn't you have a hard time not giving to those you find needy?

Giving is a privilege and not a requirement.

Holy things can be a person's downfall regardless of legitimacy to touch them if they are treated in an unholy fashion.

Annanias and Saphira were blatantly guilty of lying. Also many other sins which they may or others may not have understood so that one sin was exposed....but the others were still in existence. They knew above all else that lying was wrong. The other things said are couched in hebrew-isms and may not be clear to those not familiar with all their customs. But suffice it to say that they knew what they did and thought they would get away with it. They thought wrong.

 

[Edward]

...
It's not scriptural the way the church teaches it.
When Ananias and Sapphira sold the field they owned, Peter said to them, "Didn't (the land) belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? " (Acts 5:4 NIV). Why didn't he explain to them how everything is the Lord's and that's why they owed the money to the church?

As far as giving money to a church, Paul tells us that we "must share all good things" with those who have instructed us (Galatians 6:6 NIV). Maybe pastors instead of threatening the flock with the curse of the ungiven tithe should start making a real concerted effort to actually feed their flock who will in turn gladly share "all good things" with those who have fed them. Can pastors find the faith to depend on this Biblical method of providing for the administration of the church? That doesn't mean they don't ask for support. It means they make sure the flock gets fed and out of cheerful duty the flock will then gladly support him and the administration of the church.

Yeah it would seem that Ananias & wife lied. As noted, Perhaps there was a vow or other responsibility to give all the money from the sale to the Lord. The KJV reads a little differently than the NIV.

Acts 5:4
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God./

Maybe the first sentence/question is reference to that, they had use of it, and after it was sold, the money was in their power inducing the responsibility in them to make sure that the money got to where it was supposed to, and it didn't?

We do know that the Father gave all things into Jesus hand.

John 3:35-36
35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him./

Job 41:11
Who has a claim against me that I must pay? Everything under heaven belongs to me./

Psalm 50:12
If I were hungry I would not tell you, for the world is mine, and all that is in it./

Psalm 89:11
The heavens are yours, and yours also the earth; you founded the world and all that is in it./

Psalm 24:1
1A Psalm of David. The earth is the LORD'S, and all it contains, The world, and those who dwell in it.2For He has founded it upon the seas And established it upon the rivers.…/

So I don't know why they didn't tell Ananias that it was the Lord's. It may have been a given, and common knowledge?