Zechariah in the light of Zephaniah

[Cyberseeker]

Several prophets speak of the 'day of the Lord' however Zechariah’s scenario is different to all the others in that it speaks of survival after the holocaust. There seems to be a contradiction between them.

A day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided among you. I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it ... Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King.
(Zechariah 14:1,16)

The great day of the LORD is near ... the whole world will be consumed, for he will make a sudden end of all who live in the earth.
(Zephaniah 1:14,18)

Here are two possible explanations to this contradiction, and I'm using the forum as a sounding board to see whether people think one views is better than the other and/or if I’ve represented your preferred view fairly. Please give me you impressions – brickbats, bouquets and otherwise.

• Strict Literal View
  Zechariah 14 will happen in the future and has to be fulfilled literally in all aspects. It will begin at the return of Christ and will be a partial destruction after which the earth will be refurbished and the survivors go into the millennial reign. The end of the world will occur 1000 years after that.
  
  Double Fulfillment View
  Zechariah 14 is a 'double fulfillment prophecy.' The initial fulfillment is the destruction of Jerusalem by armies in AD70 followed by the spread of the gospel (in symbolic language) throughout the Church age. However this early fulfillment prefigures a more final and complete destruction at Christ's return.

Cyberseeker

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Howdy Cyber,

I have mentioned on a couple of occasions that I believe that events that have taken place in the past one hundred years are mentioned in Scripture. It is difficult for me to believe that a prophet, who had the ability to see thousands of years into the future, would be able to see The Great Depression, The Dust Bowl, WWI, WWII, etc, without ever mentioning it.
I can not imagine a Jewish prophet who saw the Nazi holocaust, and not mentioning it.
In fact, (don't tell Vic or :smt043 ) I tend to believe that John counted the Jews that were saved at that time and entered heaven, then saw all of the gentile believers who died in WWII and entered heaven.

Another event that I believe is mentioned in Scripture is Chernobyl. Google that term, and you will often find Revelation 8:11 quoted. The name of the star is wormwood.
For example: http://www.konig.org/wc3.htm

Interesting viewpoints:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW_b6tLY4wE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-Kt5RvdJQQ&NR=1

Just as a side note: We don't know if Chernobyl is done doing everything that it is ever gonna do. :-?

I honestly have not done a lot of research on it, and try to avoid debates in the forums, because there are so many who had researched these things and build doctrine on the future based on others opinions. (Study the two witnesses in Rev. 11, and you will find three different name repeatedly mentioned. Few people consider the possibility that these are two brand new people, rather than the return of a couple of OT prophets. You will find repeatedly they are both referred to as Jews. They witness against the "antichrist" not the "antisemitic", and they speak of the antichrist as if he were antijewish rather than antichrist.

Jesus gave us a list of things to watch for, then added "THE END IS NOT YET". For those reasons, I tend to believe that many of the experts are reading Scriptures about the past, and trying to make them fit into some future time that will take place after the rapture.

There is going to be seven last years. That seven years is going to be three and a half years followed by another three and a half years. BUT I don't believe the time-line of all of the things that people have tried to cram into those years. Hmmm, I wonder if something got lost in the translations, and weeks might not mean years. What if weeks meant decades? Just a thought. After all, I am one of those Christians that believe that we, the church, are supposed to be ruling and reigning with Christ now, and should have been doing so since the time of the resurrection. Not at some 1000 year time span in the future.

In the light of those thoughts, could it be that the time when nations gather against Jerusalem to fight against it ---could have been the Holocaust?

 

[Vic C.]

Double Fulfillment View
Zechariah 14 is a 'double fulfillment prophecy.' The initial fulfillment is the destruction of Jerusalem by armies in AD70 followed by the spread of the gospel (in symbolic language) throughout the Church age. However this early fulfillment prefigures a more final and complete destruction at Christ's return.

Cyber, the more I study, the more i lean toward this idea of a dual fulfillment, or a partial in the past and completed in the future.

There is going to be seven last years. That seven years is going to be three and a half years followed by another three and a half years. BUT I don't believe the time-line of all of the things that people have tried to cram into those years. Hmmm, I wonder if something got lost in the translations, and weeks might not mean years. What if weeks meant decades? Just a thought. After all, I am one of those Christians that believe that we, the church, are supposed to be ruling and reigning with Christ now, and should have been doing so since the time of the resurrection. Not at some 1000 year time span in the future.

Good points gabby, but what if the Reformers are correct? What if the 70th. week was already fulfilled and the Jewish Revolt and the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple did indeed end in 70AD? Now what do we do with this seven year, futuristic timeline you mention? Why do we even try to cram all of this into a tidy seven year package?

:-D

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Vic,
Did you check out the YouTube links?

 

[Vic C.]

Gabby, I'll check them out during my lunch break. Yesterday, I was a bit too busy to do much more than post a few words. 8-)

 

[Michael Lyubomirskiy]

Zep 1 is fall of Jerusalem, Zec 14 is early millennium

basically, Zechariah 14 has to do with antichrist's conquest of Jerusalem at the very end, followed by LORD Jesus Christ's return, as see:

Zec 14:3 "Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle."
Zec 14:4 "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

after this corporate return of the LORD on a day with strange lighting issues as per Zec 14:7, there will be the fulfilment of what it talks about all the nations worshipping the LORD every year in the Millennial kingdom.

On the other hand, Zephaniah 1 is all about the imminent judgment of Israel by the Babylonian attack that will leave the land (of Israel) utterly desolate until the exiles will return with Zerubbabel. Recall from Jeremiah 42 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... version=9; that even the small remnant of Jews left around Jerusalem, after Babylonians were through with it, ended up fleeing to Egypt leaving the land empty.

 

[Cyberseeker]

Thanks for all the comments.

Michael, I'm sure that Zephaniah had a initial fulfillment in Babylons conquest as commentaries say. But it obviously looks forward to a last days event also - perhaps that of 2 Peter 3:10. The description through the book is worldwide in scope.

I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth, declares the LORD.
"I will sweep away both men and animals; I will sweep away the birds of the air and the fish of the sea. The wicked will have only heaps of rubble when I cut off man from the face of the earth, declares the LORD.
(Zeph 1:2-3)

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Rev 6:5 ¶ And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
Rev 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

What if this was The Great Depression?

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed...

What if this was the number of Jews who became believers in Jesus Christ during the Nazi Holocaust?

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands...

And, what if this were all of the rest of the people who were killed in WWII?

...Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Making WWII "The Great Tribulation" (The end is not yet, is it?)

Rev 8:11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

And this? Chernobyl.

Rev 11:3 And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

And much to the horror of the Church, these two folks were not the only two Christians left on the face of the planet ~ to whom we have delegated the burden of reaching the world for Christ... but instead were called by God to testify against the beast and the antichrist?

Interesting viewpoints:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW_b6tLY4wE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-Kt5RvdJQQ&NR=1


Just a little food for thought

 

[lecoop]

Interesting posts, guys (or gals!) I think I must make some comments.

I have probably written this one hundred times before, but let's do it again. I have said that it would be impossible to get to one of the trumpets before all seven of the seals are broken. (How could the scroll be unrolled until all the seals are broken?) In the same way, or for the same reason, it would be impossible to get to any of the vials before all seven of the trumpets have been sounded. John wrote these things in a very chronological manner, and to re-arrange them is not wise.

Therefore, it is also impossible that anything in our past was one of the trumpets. Why? Very simply because none of the trumpets can be sounded before the 7th seal officially starts the 70th week. And we cannot get to the 7th seal before the 6th seal is broken. The whole world will know when the 6th seal is broken. The church will know because they will be raptured. The world will know because the world's worst earthquake will take place. They won't know about the 6th seal, unless they are familiar with Revelation, but they will surely know that God's wrath is about to be poured out. chernobyl then, was not one of the trumpets. It was just a terrible mishap.

When we compare Isaiah 2 and Joel 2 with the 6th seal events, we see that the 6th seal will be the final and complete fulfillment of these two prophecies. Joel tells us that the "day of the Lord" will come after the sun turns dark, and the moon turns red. We would expect then, from reading these things in Joel, that the "day of the Lord" would start immediately after the 6th seal. What does John tell us?

Rev 6
16...They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"

Please note that it is not just "his wrath" but "the day" of their wrath. We find much in the old testament prophecies about "His wrath." For example:

Zeph 2
2 before the appointed time arrives
and that day sweeps on like chaff,
before the fierce anger of the LORD comes upon you,
before the day of the LORD's wrath comes upon you.

His wrath is also tied to the day of the Lord:

Zephaniah 1:7
Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.

Therefore, it seems very likely that these prophecies had a partial fulfillment in the lives of those that hear it first hand, but it still pointed to the day of the Lord still in our future.

Coop

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Hey Coop,

This quote is from http://www.worldwar-2.net/

World War 2 involved every major world power in a war for global domination and at its end, more than 60 million people had lost their lives and most of Europe and large parts of Asia lay in ruins.

60 million people!

6 million of them were Jews!

http://warchronicle.com/numbers/WWII/deaths.htm Has the numbers listed according to nation, and if they were military or civilian.

Coop, do you believe that the prophets never saw WWII, or that it was not worth mentioning, ~or~ do you believe that the event is recorded in Scripture somewhere? I guess my next question would have to be this: why don't you believe that all of the seals have been opened?

 

[lecoop]

Hey Coop,

This quote is from http://www.worldwar-2.net/

World War 2 involved every major world power in a war for global domination and at its end, more than 60 million people had lost their lives and most of Europe and large parts of Asia lay in ruins.

60 million people!

6 million of them were Jews!

http://warchronicle.com/numbers/WWII/deaths.htm Has the numbers listed according to nation, and if they were military or civilian.

Coop, do you believe that the prophets never saw WWII, or that it was not worth mentioning, ~or~ do you believe that the event is recorded in Scripture somewhere? I guess my next question would have to be this: why don't you believe that all of the seals have been opened?

First off, little Angel, there is a HUGE difference between dying in battle, and being exterminated, because of who you are.

Second, of course a prophet saw the world wars: Jesus said that there would be wars and rumors of wars. All the wars during the church age fit into his prophecy. The bible is a Jewish book. It is not a history book of planet earth per se, it is a history book of the Jews. In prophecy, the kingdoms of the world are mentioned, such as Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, etc, as they conquered Israel. China would not be mentioned, for example, since they have never had anything to do with Israel. (It is possible that they may be the kings of the east in the future, but I doubt it.)

Why don't I believe all the seals have been opened? First, I am still here. The rapture has not yet taken place. Second, there has never been a world wide earthquake of the magnitude John suggests. Third, the kings of the earth have not gone into the rocks and desired to be hidden from the face of God, and from the day of His wrath. We are extremely close, but I suspect it will be a year or two. However, I am looking for that blessed hope! It could be tomorrow!!!!!!!! (Feast of tabernacles).

Coop

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Coop,
You missed my point. I think you missed my earlier post. My point being; the verses that you see in Revelation that you believe is John's description of the rapture, may have rather been John's description of WWII.

Events that you are looking at, believing that they are sometime in the future have already come and gone. If you have marked your time line with these verses, believing that it describes the rapture, when it could rather describe The Great Depression, WWII, Chernobyl, etc.... well, it would not fit into your seven year time line.

Rev 6:5 ¶ And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
Rev 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

What if this was The Great Depression?

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed...

What if this was the number of Jews who became believers in Jesus Christ during the Nazi Holocaust?

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands...

And, what if this were all of the rest of the people who were killed in WWII?

...Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Making WWII "The Great Tribulation" (The end is not yet, is it?)

Rev 8:11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

And this? Chernobyl.

Rev 11:3 And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

And much to the horror of the Church, these two folks were not the only two Christians left on the face of the planet ~ to whom we have delegated the burden of reaching the world for Christ... but instead were called by God to testify against the beast and the antichrist?

Interesting viewpoints:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW_b6tLY4wE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-Kt5RvdJQQ&NR=1


Just a little food for thought

...

Second, of course a prophet saw the world wars: Jesus said that there would be wars and rumors of wars. All the wars during the church age fit into his prophecy. The bible is a Jewish book. It is not a history book of planet earth per se, it is a history book of the Jews.

A history book of the Jews, hence the belief that John was writing of the six million that died in the Holocaust, and paid careful attention to how many of them entered the kingdom of God.

You really believe John saw a time when someone would buy a measure of wheat for a penny, but not mention The Great Depression, that he would see world wide war that killed 60 million people, but never mentioned it, but instead would tell us this...
Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands...

which by the way, takes place before the throne, and before the lamb, a different event from meeting Him in the air....

:-?

ahh... never mind. I know you believe that the 70th week is etched in stone, and none of it will fit into your seven year timeline...

 

[lecoop]

Coop,
You missed my point. I think you missed my earlier post. My point being; the verses that you see in Revelation that you believe is John's description of the rapture, may have rather been John's description of WWII.

Events that you are looking at, believing that they are sometime in the future have already come and gone. If you have marked your time line with these verses, believing that it describes the rapture, when it could rather describe The Great Depression, WWII, Chernobyl, etc.... well, it would not fit into your seven year time line.

No, I did not miss your point. : -)) I just disagree with your point. When you see how closely Daniel's prophecies, given hundreds of years before the fact, fit so closely that we can easily see the fit today, i.e, The Medo-persian Empire, followed by the Grecian Empire, followed by the Roman Empire. You are only guessing about WWII, because you don't understand the author's intent. I can promise you, if the Holy Spirit meant to show us WWII, it would fit.

A history book of the Jews, hence the belief that John was writing of the six million that died in the Holocaust, and paid careful attention to how many of them entered the kingdom of God.

If you will go back and read, it is written "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues..." Why does this sound to you like 6 million Jews???

You really believe John saw a time when someone would buy a measure of wheat for a penny, but not mention The Great Depression, that he would see world wide war that killed 60 million people, but never mentioned it, but instead would tell us this...

Did you forget or just read over what John told us? The red, black and pale horses and riders were limited to one fourth of the earth. I can assure you, the US is NOT in that one fourth. It MUST take in the Holy Land. That leaves us out. Again, the bible is written from the perspective of the Holy Land and the Jews, not from the perspective of the USA!

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands...

which by the way, takes place before the throne, and before the lamb, a different event from meeting Him in the air....

Did you forget John 14? Where do we go after we meet Him in the air?

"I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. "

Did you notice where Jesus was - at the time John saw Him on the white horse? It is written, "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse;..." After the rapture, we go to heaven with Jesus. He is in heaven, and then descends from heaven, with the armys of heaven.

Next, did you notice where and when John sees the marriage of the Lamb? 19:5 starts: "And a voice came out of the throne..." John is in heaven, hears the voice from the throne, and then he hears the voice say: "7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready." Without reading any preconceived ideas here, this is telling us that the wedding takes place in heaven BEFORE Jesus descends. Next, John hears: "Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb." When is the wedding supper? Of course AFTER the wedding. Both of these event take place in heaven, before Jesus gets on the white horse. BTW, several people have seen the tables, all prepared in heaven, waiting on us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The preparations are complete, except for us!

ahh... never mind. I know you believe that the 70th week is etched in stone, and none of it will fit into your seven year timeline...

How many verses would you need to convince you of the 70th week? John gives us FIVE (5) different verses showing us that the last half of the week is 3 1/2 years, or 42 months, or 1260 days. If one half a set time is 1260 days, or 42 months, any fourth grader would be able to tell us that the entire time would be twice that or 7 years. What I cannot understand is why this is so hard for you to believe and accept.

I have told you before, the Holy Spirit came to me, and spoke words, and I heard them. He said that whenever He mentioned (speaking of the book of Revelation) an event that started at the midpoint of the week and went to the end of the week, He always included the 3 1/2 years. He said if I find these mentions of the 3 1/2 years, I would be VERY close to the exact midpoint of the week, "clearly marked" in Revelation. Little Angel, I did not make this up. The Holy Spirit spoke words to me. He also said "you could find the entire 70th week, "clearly marked." Why would He say these things, if there was no 70th week? Why would He mention the exact midpoint of the week, if there was no midpoint, and no week? And why does Revelation agree with everythiing that was spoken to me?

Coop

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

No, I did not miss your point. : -)) I just disagree with your point. When you see how closely Daniel's prophecies, given hundreds of years before the fact, fit so closely that we can easily see the fit today, i.e, The Medo-persian Empire, followed by the Grecian Empire, followed by the Roman Empire. You are only guessing about WWII, because you don't understand the author's intent. I can promise you, if the Holy Spirit meant to show us WWII, it would fit.
...

If you will go back and read, it is written "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues..." Why does this sound to you like 6 million Jews???

That does not sound like 6 million to me. :-?
Sheesh, my communication skills leave a lot to be desired.

The great multitude which no man could number ~ that sounds to me like the number of believers who entered into heaven who were killed in WWII. Sixty million were reportedly killed, ain't no tellin' how many were Christians.
There were reportedly six million Jews killed. John gave a number of 144,000, named the tribes that they were from (all Jewish) and said that they were those that came through the tribulation.
In other words, out of the six million killed, 144,000 of them were saved.

How many verses would you need to convince you of the 70th week? John gives us FIVE (5) different verses showing us that the last half of the week is 3 1/2 years, or 42 months, or 1260 days. If one half a set time is 1260 days, or 42 months, any fourth grader would be able to tell us that the entire time would be twice that or 7 years. What I cannot understand is why this is so hard for you to believe and accept.

Coop, I am not arguing over there being references to the time spans of 7 years, or 3 and a half hears. What I am thinking is that there are decades worth of stuff that people have tried to cram into them.

I have told you before, the Holy Spirit came to me, and spoke words, and I heard them....

No arguement there. I gotta relationship with Him too. Mentioned to you a couple of times that I have been in His presence, and have seen the place. Sooo... I see no point in continuing this conversation. I have no interest in going around this circle over and over.

Thanks for your input.

 

[lecoop]

144,000? What are they and who or what do they represent?

First, we know that they are all descendants of Jacob. Twelve thousand come from each tribe.
They were sealed for their protection during the trumpet judgements.

The next time they are seen, they are standing on Mt Sion. But where is that? It says that "they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders.." This is telling us that they are before the throne of God in heaven when John sees them. Next John tells us that they were "which were redeemed from the earth." Again this tells us that they are in heaven. Then John tells us that they are the "firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb." If there is "first fruits" then there also must be "last fruits." What John is telling us is that God took 144,000 to heaven as firstfruits, and will wait for the main harvest, at the end of the 70th week. They will undoubtedly be from the remnant that fled to the wilderness. But how did these 144,000 get to heaven? The text surely does not tell us that they were killed. On the contrary, it seems that they were raptured, perhaps at the midpoint of the week.

Why would anyone think that this group is from somewhere back in history? They cannot be sealed until the 6th seal, and that seal has not yet happened. It will be an unmistakable, world-wide earthquake, probably a magnitude of 10 or greater. And after the ground has stopped shaking, people will realize that millions have disappeared from around the world. Sorry, folks, but this has not happened yet, and nothing shown to us after this in Revelation has happened yet, except for John's monor history lesson, in chapter 12.

Coop