OSAS The Truth

[smaller]

Your error is in thinking that all sin comes from the devil, as if man has no ability to sin within himself.

I suggest you read James 1.

I'd suggest that 1 John 3:8 says exactly that. James 3 shows that devilish wisdom comes to believers as well.

1 John 3:
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Whenever a believer sins in thought, word or deed, it is done at their subjugation to the spirit of disobedience which can do no other than to disobey.

As much as you'd like to blame only man and their 'sole decisions' that doesn't play out with the scriptural facts.

 

[FreeGrace]

As much as you'd like to blame only man and their 'sole decisions' that doesn't play out with the scriptural facts.

Here's just another error of yours. I don't blame only man. So please quit making false statements about my views.

If you can't cite a post where I said what you are claiming, you owe me an apology.

 

[JLB]

Freegrace said -

By the way, please explain WHEN you think eternal life is given. Please be specific, as related to WHEN one believes. And back it up with Scripture to support your idea.

Eternal Life is given In the age to come.


9 So He said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or parents or brothers or wife or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, 30 who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life." Luke 18:29-30


The end of your faith, is the salvation of your soul. 1 Peter 1:9


...eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

...to those who by patient continuance in doing good

...continuance in doing good

5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. Romans 2:5-10


...those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath,


...but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good,


...to everyone who works what is good,

...who works what is good,





JLB

 

[smaller]

Here's just another error of yours. I don't blame only man. So please quit making false statements about my views.

Obviously that can't be the case. We know that all unbelievers, whether after belief or before, are in fact blinded by the god of this world. There is no getting around seeing 'the person' and 'the captor who blinds their MINDS. It is just more shortsightedness to not see that same problem to some degree even with ourselves, as much as the pharisee in all of us doesn't care for the information.

If you can't cite a post where I said what you are claiming, you owe me an apology.

You agree on one hand that Satan blinds minds and disagree on the other by rotfl, and expect an apology for your circular reasoning?

I've shown openly where both the position of OSAS applied to Paul

and

The position of ETERNAL DAMNATION applied to the messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh

existing SIMULTANEOUSLY.

Your construct remains factually VOID of the obvious second observation of fact, preferring to salve only on one side of the equation.

 

[MarkT]

Scriptural observation made that temptation was and remained in Paul's flesh as did a messenger of Satan. Not difficult to connect the party to the action.

Look at the context of the letter wherein those words appear.

Paul dares to boast of his labours. As a servant of Christ he was beaten, imprisoned, stoned. He was often near death. He was ship wrecked 3 times. He was in danger from his own people and from Gentiles, danger in the wilderness, danger at sea, danger from false brethren. Then the thorn he received in his flesh that he calls a messenger of Satan.

He is not suddenly talking about temptation. No. He continues. Three times, he says, he besought the Lord that it should leave him. Does he speak of temptation? No. What temptation? Is Paul being tempted? No. Paul is relating the thorn to the beatings.

Is a thorn painful? Can you relate that pain to the beatings he received from the Jews? Would it not make sense that if this thorn in his flesh was painful that Paul would ask the Lord to make it go away?

Then what did the Lord say? He said, "my power is made perfect in weakness." I take it the greater the suffering in the body, which is interpreted as a weakness, the more perfect the power of God is made in the spirit. Then Paul said, "I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities; for when I am weak, then I am strong."

There is no room for your interpretation given the context of the letter.

What or who are Satan and his messengers was my question to you.

Satan is Satan. The thorn is the messenger in the language of the spirit.

That's where your theological premise of human devils runs off the theological rails. We also know from scripture that all of Israel were Gods children per Deut. 14:1 and Psalm 82:6. Not to mention a myriad of scripture that shows both the entrance of Satan INTO humans, i.e. in particular with both Judas and Peter and devils being cast out of a multitude of humans. Humans were not cast out of themselves.

None of which serves to make any human a devil. Jesus advised us exactly how that happened to them all in Mark 4:15 (and similarly in the other seed parables.)

Judas was a devil. He was a devil before he was even born.

The sons of the evil one, such as Cain, for another example, have the nature of their father. John calls Cain a son of the devil - "and not be like Cain who was of the evil one and murdered his brother." 1 John 3:12 Note John says Cain was of the evil one, a devil. Also there's no 'Satan entered Cain' in Genesis to confuse the issue.

 

[smaller]

Look at the context of the letter wherein those words appear.

Paul dares to boast of his labours. As a servant of Christ he was beaten, imprisoned, stoned. He was often near death. He was ship wrecked 3 times. He was in danger from his own people and from Gentiles, danger in the wilderness, danger at sea, danger from false brethren. Then the thorn he received in his flesh that he calls a messenger of Satan.

You may think you find cause to see the messenger of Satan as NOT a messenger of Satan. Paul won't be taking back the statement of fact, that a messenger of Satan was in his flesh.

He is not suddenly talking about temptation. No. He continues. Three times, he says, he besought the Lord that it should leave him. Does he speak of temptation? No. What temptation? Is Paul being tempted? No. Paul is relating the thorn to the beatings.

A messenger of Satan in his flesh is not a beating, but a messenger of Satan. Paul's pleadings were to REMOVE the messenger, not the beatings.

There is no room for your interpretation given the context of the letter.

There is every reason to believe a messenger of Satan is a messenger of Satan. It is only a stretch of imagination to see otherwise when clearly that messenger was one of Satan in his flesh.

Satan is Satan. The thorn is the messenger in the language of the spirit.

Beatings are not messengers of Satan.

Judas was a devil. He was a devil before he was even born.

Uh huh. And Jesus sat on a thorn in the desert when tempted by Satan too? Is that really where you want to go with this?

Devils are devils. People are not devils.

The god of this world, the spirit of disobedience, the prince of the power of the air BLINDS peoples minds to THE LIGHT of Gods Exposure, and I might observe that blinding is in force in anyone who sees thorn as a beating and not as a messenger of Satan, as Paul stated.

And for a reminder, Paul tells us also that he had evil present with him. That he DID evil. And that sin indwelt his flesh which was NOT HIM.

I doubt very much that Paul was EVIL. How bout you?

Satan and devils are a THEOLOGICAL NECESSITY in order for God to expend His Wrath upon them. That wrath will not be expended on a beating, but on the parties who perpetrate EVIL in MAN and BLIND THEM.

 

[MarkT]

What if I said inwardly Judas, Cain, and the Pharisees were devils. They were devils in heart and mind and spirit.

 

[smaller]

What if I said inwardly Judas, Cain, and the Pharisees were devils. They were devils in heart and mind and spirit.

They all to the last man of them were overtaken by SPIRITUAL wickedness of the EVIL ONE.

But they were neither Satan or devils themselves.

Look and remind yourself of where you were prior to salvation:

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

That party, the god of this world, to this moment actively BLINDS MINDS of people just as that god blinded us.

Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Yes, it was A SPIRIT of disobedience, that of the prince of the power of the air, the god of this world that operated in every last one of us.

It is this same SPIRIT that causes us ALL to see only in part and as through glass darkly. We ALL remain partly cloudy in these regards because of the REAL operation of the disobedient SPIRIT.

Paul had evil present with him, a messenger of SATAN in his flesh. He THOUGHT evil in his mind because of the adverse reaction of that messenger to the LAW of God, as he so adroitly delineates in Romans 7.

Paul placed himself at the bottom of ALL sinners and at the bottom of ALL saints, just to show us the reality of his TRUTHFUL status and ultimately he paid the price of martyrdom by those same spirits LOPPING his head off through a blinded Roman SLAVE of Satan who finally shut him up, or so they thought.

That is the price that some faithful pay for engaging a REAL spiritual ENEMY.

 

[MarkT]

In context, Paul isn't saying anything about temptation or being tempted. You can't introduce temptation where there is no temptation. Sin being active in the flesh is another subject. The devil tempting Jesus is another subject. What Paul is describing is not a weakness of the flesh towards sin. That would be introducing something completely out of context and it would make the whole letter a confusion of theological necessities as you say. But they are your necessities. I can see you're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

 

[FreeGrace]

Eternal Life is given In the age to come.

OK, then you disagree with Jesus Christ. He said those who believe HAVE, as in the present tense, eternal life. Jn 5:24

Paul used the exact same word for gift in Rom 11:29 as he did in Ch 12 in regard to spiritual gifts and in 6:23 in regard to eternal life.

So, both eternal life and spiritual gifts are irrevocable. This is irrefutable.

You have failed to prove otherwise.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"f you can't cite a post where I said what you are claiming, you owe me an apology."

You agree on one hand that Satan blinds minds and disagree on the other by rotfl, and expect an apology for your circular reasoning?

I noticed that you cited no post. Obviously you can't find any post where I said what you have claimed I said. So I am waiting for an apology from you.

I've shown openly where both the position of OSAS applied to Paul

and

The position of ETERNAL DAMNATION applied to the messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh

existing SIMULTANEOUSLY.

So? Irrelevant. No one has argued anything differently. What are you so obsessed about?

 

[MarkT]

They all to the last man of them were overtaken by SPIRITUAL wickedness of the EVIL ONE.

But they were neither Satan or devils themselves.

If Jesus said, 'one of you is a devil' meaning Judas, knowing Judas would betray him, then Judas was a devil. There is no contradiction. When he said to the Jews who wanted to kill him, " you are of your father the devil" John 8:44, he was stating a truth - and that's how we worship God. You can not say they were overtaken by spiritual weakness of the evil one, whatever that means, when Jesus made it clear God was not their father. They were devils.

 

[MarkT]

A believer who "believes for a while" is an EX-believer. Your claim that they become an UN-believer is simply false, because they HAD believed at one time.

Your treatment of one who HAS believed but only for a while is unreasonable. They are in EX-believer, in exactly the same way an EX-wife is a former wife.

A former wife is no longer a wife. Once you're divorced, that's it. So if a man falls into unbelief, he is no longer a believer and he is not counted as a believer.

 

[JLB]

A former wife is no longer a wife. Once you're divorced, that's it. So if a man falls into unbelief, he is no longer a believer and he is not counted as a believer.

 

[JLB]

OK, then you disagree with Jesus Christ. He said those who believe HAVE, as in the present tense, eternal life. Jn 5:24

Ok, you asked me a question.

Here is your quote -

By the way, please explain WHEN you think eternal life is given. Please be specific, as related to WHEN one believes. And back it up with Scripture to support your idea.

Here is the scripture that you asked me to use to back up my answer.


My answer: Eternal Life is given In the age to come.

The scripture I used to back up my answer:

9 So He said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or parents or brothers or wife or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, 30 who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life." Luke 18:29-30


Now here is the scripture that you wouldn't write out.

The scripture that you just gave, as your opinion, then "tagged it" with a scripture reference, as is your habit.


24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Verily, verily, I say unto you *, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. KJV

Verily, verily, I say to you -- He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life. YLT

believeth - Strong's Number: 4100 - Pisteuo

1. to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
   1. of the thing believed
      1. to credit, have confidence
   2. in a moral or religious reference
      1. used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
      2. to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith 1bc) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith
2. to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
   1. to be intrusted with a thing

Those who believe, are promised by the Lord Jesus Christ, eternal life...in the age to come... eternal life


9 So He said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or parents or brothers or wife or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, 30 who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life." Luke 18:29-30


... eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;


5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. Romans 2:5-10


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

A former wife is no longer a wife. Once you're divorced, that's it. So if a man falls into unbelief, he is no longer a believer and he is not counted as a believer.

Are you really going to claim that the word "ex-wife" doesn't exist???? That's just way naive. The term is COMMON.

That's HOW men refer to their former wives. I've never heard "my former wife", but I've heard "my ex-wife" many times.

The point is what Scripture says about one who has been given eternal life.

Eternal life is described as charisma (gift) in Rom 6:23.

Christ's imputed righteousness is described as charisma (gift) in Rom 5:15,17.

Spiritual gifts (charisma) are noted in Rom 12:6

God's gifts (charisma) [all of them] are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.

Any questions?

 

[FreeGrace]

My answer: Eternal Life is given In the age to come.

It is realized in the age to come, sure. But Jesus was very clear about WHEN the believer HAS eternal life.

I wish you'd STOP trying to pit Scripture against Scripture. John 5:24 tells us that WHEN one believes they HAVE eternal life.

The scripture I used to back up my answer:

9 So He said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or parents or brothers or wife or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, 30 who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life." Luke 18:29-30


Now here is the scripture that you wouldn't write out.

The scripture that you just gave, as your opinion, then "tagged it" with a scripture reference, as is your habit.

There was no opinion, unless what Jesus SAID in John 5:24 is considered by you to be merely "opinion".

However, I'll take the opinion of Jesus over yours ANY DAY.

24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Verily, verily, I say unto you *, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. KJV

Verily, verily, I say to you -- He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life. YLT

believeth - Strong's Number: 4100 - Pisteuo

1. 
   
   
   • to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
     1. of the thing believed
        1. to credit, have confidence
     2. in a moral or religious reference
        1. used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
        2. to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith 1bc) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith
   • to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
     1. to be intrusted with a thing

Those who believe, are promised by the Lord Jesus Christ, eternal life...in the age to come... eternal life

It seems you are blatantly ignoring the present tense of HAS in John 5:24.

I guess that's the only way to hold on to a false doctrine.

9 So He said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or parents or brothers or wife or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, 30 who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life." Luke 18:29-30[/QUOTE]
This verse doesn't speak of WHEN the believer receives eternal life. John 5:24 DOES.

 

[dadof10]

Regarding "falling away" [αποστασία] in 2Th 2:3, I believe they are mere professors of faith and not born from above. They hovered near God and the Church, wanting to be like both, but never entering into either.

Regarding those who "depart" [αφίστημι] from the faith in 1Tim 4:1, are those who stand away from God never having belonged to Him. They refused to believe.

Good. Now, do you think that a person can "show" or "prove" his faith is a "true faith" by his actions? Is this how you would interpret James 2?

 

[dadof10]

Why the "sigh"?

Anyway, eternal life is described as "charisma" (gift) in Rom 6:23. With me so far?

In Rom 11:29 Paul wrote that God's gifts (charisma) are irrevocable. With me so far?

Still confused about one who used to believe? Since eternal life, a gift (charisma) of God is irrevocable, they still have the gift.

The sigh was the lack of a simple yes or no answer. It seems, from this post that your answer to the question "are apostates saved" is "yes". I just don't see any examples of this in the Bible. You can interpret Rom. 11:29 to mean "irrevocable" if you want, but nowhere does the Bible teach that perseverance is unnecessary for salvation, nor are there any examples of an apostate being saved.

 

[JLB]

It is realized in the age to come, sure. But Jesus was very clear about WHEN the believer HAS eternal life.

I wish you'd STOP trying to pit Scripture against Scripture. John 5:24 tells us that WHEN one believes they HAVE eternal life.


There was no opinion, unless what Jesus SAID in John 5:24 is considered by you to be merely "opinion".

However, I'll take the opinion of Jesus over yours ANY DAY.


It seems you are blatantly ignoring the present tense of HAS in John 5:24.

I guess that's the only way to hold on to a false doctrine.

9 So He said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or parents or brothers or wife or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, 30 who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life." Luke 18:29-30

This verse doesn't speak of WHEN the believer receives eternal life. John 5:24 DOES.[/QUOTE]


9 So He said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or parents or brothers or wife or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, 30 who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life." Luke 18:29-30


This verse is crystal clear to those who are seeking the truth.

Those who left the natural things of this life, family and houses... for the sake of the kingdom will receive them back many times more in this present time.

In addition to the earthly things that these left, they also will receive eternal life in the age to come.


18 That they do good , that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute , willing to communicate; 19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come , that they may lay hold on eternal life. 1 Timothy 6:18-19

and again -

1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; Titus 1:1-2

and again -


That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:7


and again -

20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, 21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. Jude 20-21


and again -


24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. 1 John 2:24-25


These verse's teach us we have the hope and the promise of eternal life...If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son,



JLB